With a major lifestyle change imminent ? moving from central London to deepest East Anglia, I've really got to replace my trusty old K-reg Saab 900 (brilliant pieces of kit!) with something more suitable for the increased mileage that I'll be doing, plus a dog and all the other bits & pieces.
Obvious choice is a nearly-new 9-5 estate. But something keeps saying 'Subaru'. Haven't seen a word said against the new Legacy wagon, although there aren't many about nearly-new, esp automatics, and those that I've seen are more dosh than the Saab.
Anyone got experience of either? I'm not bothered about absolute load carrying capacity, more about seat comfort (Saab seats are fabulous) and general relaxing 'waftability'.
My main worry re. Saabs is about the reliability of the newer ones - my 900 has never missed a beat, but she's a low-tech old thing in comparison to the new ones.
And sorry, I'm just not old enough for a Volvo yet!
Cheers
Davros
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"My main worry re. Saabs is about the reliability of the newer ones"
Hobson's choice then. Subaru.
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Yes, but only hearsay - I got several friends who have bought 9-5s and love them to bits - no problems at all. Not like the friends who have VAG cars - lots of problems there, esp Audis.
Davros
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Yes, but only hearsay - I got several friends who have bought 9-5s and love them to bits - no problems at all. Not like the friends who have VAG cars - lots of problems there, esp Audis. Davros
I'm always astonished by how many people complain about VAG cars on various bulletin boards. I have gone back to Audi having tried several so called 'safe-bet' cars.
I have had 2 VW Passats as company cars with 100K miles between them with no real running issues at all, and my current Audi has had 30K miles worth of use again with no running problems, squeaks or rattles etc. The diesels do 50 to the gallon on most motorway driving scenarios too. I can only think that people buy oldish VAG cars expecting them to last forever and get dissapointed when they have problems.
Although in their defence the dealers are c**P !
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Well, there's my brother-in-law and his saga with two similarly unreliable (new) Passats (both company cars, luckily for him). My sister and her defunct Golf (2000 model year). A friend and the exploding gearbox on an 18 month-old A4. Another friend and the horrendous repair bills for the collapsing suspension on a 4 year-old A6 quattro.
Last - but not least - yet another friend and the saga of her 60K Audi S8 which almost ended up in court. Until they realised that she is a partner in a London law firm and decided to settle on the quiet.
Meanwhile, I've run a 12 year-old, 90,000 mile Saab without a single problem for the past five years.
Thta's enough hearsay for me!
Davros
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I tested out my Legacy today by doing a good deed. A minibus was stuck in the muddy part of the car park at Lyme Park. The minibus was front wheel drive, one of the wheels was spinning and digging a hole. I have towed very many times in the past, and still carry the towrope I bought in Zambia 30 years ago. The coach driver opened the back doors and attached the rope to one of the seat anchorages. The tow hitch at the back of the Legacy is up against the floor, not easy to tie a rope to. With the coach driver gently mud plugging in reverse and me gently snatching forward we got him out. I say 'snatching' because I don't have the same control with an automatic that I had with a clutch. Eventually he stopped and I found that I was skidding too as I tried to pull him on his handbrake. I lost 12 inches off the towrope because I couldn't undo the knot! Had to cut it free.
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In 1999 I got a brand new VW Golf GTi Turbo. From day one faulty gearbox that made grinding noises. Replaced under warranty along with some turbo bits. Nicked after six months so cannot comment on long term reliability.
VW Passat 1.8T replacement (2000). Turbo faulty on delivery (sounded like a jet engine taking off). Replaced as was gearbox (I protested it wasn't gearbox though). Door locks faulty. Air bag/wiring issue before 3years old and then air-con compressor failed.
VAG is not reliable anymore. Or have they been for a while?
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I have owned a Subaru Outback since beginning of Feb. and have driven it 24000 miles. The Outback is almost identical to the Legacy wagon but with an extra inch of ground clearance and a couple of gadgets. It is a rewarding car to drive, no quirks and the 6 pot engine is smoooooth and responsive. I have had no troubles of any kind with the car but coincidentally I have just received notice of a recall to 'adjust the ECU'. Don't know yet what it is in aid of. The only possible snag is a slight hesitation to change up from third or fourh after going down a hill, otherwise the auto tx has been perfect. Hope you find the foregoing helpful.
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I would go for the Subaru without hesitation. Better engineering all round.
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I've got the new Outback 2.5 SE.
Cracking car, comfy, speedy, easy-going and subtle.
Not so clever economy around town but very good on motorway (up to 40mpg) at a steady 70.
20,000 miles and not a single problem, but then I'm on my seventh Subaru and this only to be expected as I've not had to visit my dealer for anything other than routine servicing in over 200,000 miles of motoring .....
As for Saab's, working for a famous break-down company, I can only say we recover more of these than any other 'prestige' brand......
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thallium81
I assume you have a 3 litre Outback auto. I was very interested in buying one of these earlier this year, but the dealer said I would be lucky to get better than early 20's mpg. What is your average mpg and is it a current model?
Thanks in anticipation.
HectorG
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Hector - CAR are long term testing an Outback right now - look in the mag at the rear for details of the fuel consumption. I have a mate with one who does mostly motorway driving and gets no better than 28mpg. Mind you, I have a Forester Turbo Auto and get no better than 23mpg unless the tank is all motorway.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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A friend has a 3.0 litre auto Legacy Estate and is very satisfied - apart from the economy.
Chris M
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I understood that the 9-5 is basically a vectra in drag ? The seats are not a patch on the older 900/9000 ones for comfort. I think you would do better to keep the 900 or if you want to keep a saab try a late 9000 hatch, they do have a huge amount of boot space and I used to easily get 30mpg out of a 2.3turbo driven hard.
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coincidentally I have just received notice of a recallto 'adjust the ECU'. Don't know yet what it is in aid of. The only possible snag is a slight hesitation to change up from third or fourh after going down a hill, otherwise the auto tx has been perfect. Hope you find the foregoing helpful.
Hurrah, someone with the same probs as my Forester! Subaru keep telling me it drives as a Subaru should. Drives my backside! It has been back three times. It improves, then the ECU learns from some old tosh that is going on in my engine and goes back to the hesitation. ECU was re-flashed, but has gone back to hesitation between 1st/2nd and when in 4th/5th as light throttle touch on the flat or downhill.
Subaru keep going on about their smooth boxer engine, but mine is as lumpy as Mr Lumpy from Lumpy Road, Lumpy Town
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I ran a 1999 9-5 estate for about 70k from new, drove nicely and seemed very quiet for such a big load carrier and the seats were fantastic. Decent performance too given all I had was the basic 2.0 petrol turbo with 150bhp. Wouldn't have another though as too many niggly faults cropped up - gear selection, tailgate, rear suspension, windscreen washers etc. Shame, as other than the niggles it was a superb car to drive.
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... and niggles are just what I don't need when the nearest dealer will be a good 45 minutes away.
Sounds like a pretty unequivocal vote for a Legacy. If I can find one.
Davros
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Just to confirm - I bought a 2.5 SE Tourer in March - private purchase after years of company cars - only done 8000 miles so far, but hugely satisfied with it. Dealers are helpful & car is a cracking drive.
Averaging around 32 mpg over the distance so far which does include a fair bit of motorway. Best tankful to date 37mpg, worst 21mpg.
Quirks - haven't found a way to shut the drivers console air vents yet but you can fiddle with the climate settings to do this. The third centre seatbelt in the rear is a bit fiddly to use (if you carry five regularly).
Pluses - well built, no rattles, enough space for me although it's not the biggest load carrier (9-5 is better here possibly). Fantastic handling & the flat-4 makes a great noise
Probably not as fast as it ought to be - still have a niggling feeling that I should have bought the 3.0, but I look at the economy figures and petrol prices and relax.
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- I think you've hit the nail on the head here, Davros. Both Saab and Subaru re more "exotic" brands - it's worth making sure you've got a dealer or good independent garage not too far away. That would swing the decision for me.
That aside, the Saab is the older model and therefore cheaper and more plentiful to find?
There's a new Saab 9-3 estate being launchd next month too, isn't there?!
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You should be able to get more Saab for your money than Subaru if you are buying second hand, plus you could get a diesel 9-5 if economy is important to you.
I've owned both Subaru and Saab in the past and think you'd be satisfied with either choice.
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A friend has just got Rid of a 2.5 year old SAAB 9-5 3.0 V6 TDI ARC estate
It was a comfy lazy mile muncher making large daily mileages really easy that returned 35mpg over its 70k life. The boot is huge and ideal for our doggie chums. The gear box was stiff when new but loostened up over time.
Three sets of front tyres, two sets at rear. The power steering rack sprang a leak at 50k (fixed under warranty) and the air con packed in (no gas, was refilled with a dye and then promptly sold on while still working and before any leak proved)
The only other problem was that the ash tray fell apart. Nothing rattled or squeeked after a very hard 70k
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Reply to HectorG about fuel consumption. I get26/27 mpg overall but most of my mileage is on motorways, the round town consumption is more like 22mpg. I do like the motor though so I grin and bear it.
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Blind as a bat, did'nt read half your question!! Yes my car is the 05 model 3.0R with auto.
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Also, Davros the 9-5 is an ancient model that must be at least eight years old as a saloon and at least five years as an estate. The Legacy is about 18 months old so far newer in terms of integrated technology and likely to be much more reliable. Also, teh low speed ride of pockmarked roads is better on the Subaru, especially the Outback.
I would only actively avoid a Subaru if you did a high mileage.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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To find one, go to www.subaru.co.uk and use the used car search. I've had an older Legacy for a couple of years now and my next car will definately be a Subaru.
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I recently read that Subaru are finally going to produce a range of diesel Boxer engines, developed in conjunction with Porsche.
A Legacy or Forester diesel will be many people's ideal car, and I'm sure demand will be very high.
Half the Veterinary Surgeons in Britain will buy one, for a start.
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So will at least one chartered surveyor!
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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There are a lot of pros and cons on this one.
On the plus side for the Saab 95 they are very good value for money now secondhand, and in my opinion having owned one of the new 93 sports saloons, the 95 is the last 'real' Saab that will ever be made in terms of quality and true 'Saabness'.
On the down side for the Saab is its now a very old model, and doesn't have any good diesel engines to choose from if you wanted diesel. Also, servicing costs are steep in my experience.
I'm not an expert on Subarus but I understand they never go wrong, however I do know someone who had a couple of Subaru estates, and I understand they are very thirsty on fuel. I also think a decent Subaru Legacy will cost you a LOT more than a 95 estate.
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Aye, there's the rub.
I've seen an 02 9-5 2.0 ARC with 23,000 miles for £11.5K, whereas almost every 2.5 Legacy SE (which is what I'd want) seems to be priced at around £17K (OK, so that's for a very late 03 or an 04 car, but still . . .)
And I doubt whether there is sufficient volume in Suburu's supply-side to coax a dealer to drop the price to any great extent.
Davros
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cheap Subarus here
2003 53 Reg Subaru Legacy Saloon 2.5 SE Manual, Oaken Garage 9,000 miles, Regal Blue Metallic, ABS, Adjustable Steering Column, Climate Control, Multiple Airbags, Alarm Interfaced with Central Locking, 16" Alloy Wheels, Balance of 3 Yr Factory Warranty, CD Player, . . . . (trade)
£11,995
35 miles
2003 53 Reg Subaru Legacy Saloon 2.5 SE Automatic, Oaken Garage 8,000 miles, Regal Blue Metallic, ABS, Climate Control, Multiple Airbags, 16" Alloy Wheels, Alarm Interfaced with Central Locking, Balance of 3 Yr Factory Warranty, CD Player, Central Door Locking, . . . . (trade)
£12,495
35 miles
2003 53 Reg Subaru Legacy Sports Tourer 2.5 SE Automatic, Oaken Garage 14,000 miles, Atlantic Blue Metallic, ABS, Climate Control, Multiple Airbags, Alarm Interfaced with Central Locking, 17" Alloy Wheels, Balance of 3 Yr Factory Warranty, CD Player, Central Door Locking, . . . . (trade)
£16,495
35 miles
madf
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I put 85K on a 9-5 lpt in 3 yrs from new on a T plate. Had one problem with difficulty engaging reverse which was fixed by the dealer overnight, otherwise pretty much painless.
AS you say, the most comfortable seats of any car I've had. Not the tightest cornering car but I do drive in a more spirited way than that car is designed for.
You can pick them up for not a lot think the styling isn't really ageing. Athough some people sniff about the GMness of them now, they're still a wee bit bonkers which I like.
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We've has a W reg 9-5 estste secand hand from a main dealer with 22,000 miles on the clock. Loads of problems from mysterious circles appearing above the interior light on the roof to the haed gasket leaking. Overall about 10 problems.
But on the other hand we've also got a 9-5 saloon thts a V reg secand hand that had 10,000 miles on the clock and that just keeps going on and on. So, it may be we were unlucky to buy the estate and it was just that one. One other thing, the servaces at 65,000 miles are very expensive and the dealer we go to are very good at selling cars but not at maintaining them. It had just been in for a service and a look at the back wheels and they managed to lose a locking wheel nut so it only had 4 others and they insisted that it wasn't them and it must have fallen off. They also scratchrd both rear wheel arches and half heartedly rubbed one out so you can still see it! So next time we will look else where or go to a different dealer beacause the new estses we have tryed are suberb,, its just the dealer that puts us off.
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davros
If you were happy running a K-reg saab 900, you are obviously not averse to being seen in an older car!Have you considered an older Legacy estate, which can be bought far cheaper? In 2001 I bought an R reg 2.0 litre GLS estate(my third Subaru)for £3.5k. With 92k on the clock I sold it earlier this year for £1900, and it cost me nothing in repairs, apart from routine servicing with my local one man garage and new tyres.The one occasion it visited a main dealer was to enquire about new rear suspension bushes, and these I sourced independently as the dealer network only supplied them as whole unit thingys!My next car, once I no longer require a commercial, will be a Subaru, but then my mileage only averages 25k pa. If it was more, I would regretfully have to look elsewhere due to fuel costs. I averaged 32mpg with rapid(ish) rural driving. Hope this is of some use.
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Took a test drive today in a Legacy 2.5SE and have to say, I'm seriously impressed. Even though it was a manual . . .
Great to drive, comfortable seats, rapid enough, well-built, huge boot and comfortable ride. Love the huge sunroof.
Only things I could fault are the lack of audio controls on the steering wheel (why - even a base hatchback has them now) and only a single CD player (ditto).
I expect to find an irate Troll banging down my door shortly to find out why I've jumped ship.
Now to find the same thing with an autobox.
Thanks for all the advice folks
Davros
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Actually all the little moomin trolls will be following you. Saab have done a deal with subaru. the new 9-2 is a subaru impreza and the forthcoming 9-6 is i think an outback.
The subaru diesel is reported as being an internal design, despite involving porsche in the early stages of the project.
Saab will not be offering diesels in the new models because the subaru diesels are said to be too expensive to buy.
My question to anyone that knows is what is the connection between GM and subaru ? I thought subaru were part of Fuji ?
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GM owns 20% of Fuji Heavy Industries who are indeed the owners of Subaru.
Davros
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Let's just hope that future GM cars are Subarus under the skin and not the other way round like Saabs and Vectras or Jaguars and Mondeos. I'm praying that GM bean-counters don't get to work at Subaru and dilute the engineering excellence.
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Agree completely, nick.
It woud be a minor tragedy if Subaru's distinctiveness was diluted into being just another 'brand' as, unfortunately, was Saab's fate.
Long live four-wheel drive, boxer engines, ugly styling and uncompromising over-engineered excellence.
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Ugly? My Forester is beautiful.......
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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It isn't as pretty as my friend's Bug-eye Impreza... and my, ahem...'Classic' Impreza is even lovlier.....
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Saab's arn't at all like a vectra in practicalterms and you would only be able to tell that they were simular if you looked underneith.
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Saab's arn't at all like a vectra in practicalterms and you would only be able to tell that they were simular if you looked underneith.
>
Quite. It's what's underneath that is the problem...
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that Legacy's don't give problems. My clutch failed very badly at 17 000 miles. Looking at it, I was surprised that it got that far. Also, the clutch action was so heavy it ruined my shoes. I really must have have a bad one.
That said, the cost at 30 000 miles (when I traded for an automatic), was 50.48p / mile everything included, average 30.1 mpg, mostly in suburban driving. The engine was 2.0 litre, as is my present one.
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Well then don't worry about it because it's in other words a totally seperate car which is not just the same car with a different bumper is it? Who cares all it does is bring the price down in the end?
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Subaru`s dealer parts can be prohibitively expensive on the rare occasions that something is needed - thank gawd there`s independants and a few specialist breakers around.
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They've reduced the price of a lot of parts lately but no doubt thing like gearboxes are very dear. But I don't think £4 for an oil filter or £200 for a cambelt change are too bad.
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I accidently posted this too high in the thread to be seen.
"I tested out my Legacy today by doing a good deed. A minibus was stuck in the muddy part of the car park at Lyme Park. The minibus was front wheel drive, one of the wheels was spinning and digging a hole. I have towed very many times in the past, and still carry the towrope I bought in Zambia 30 years ago. The coach driver opened the back doors and attached the rope to one of the seat anchorages. The tow hitch at the back of the Legacy is up against the floor, not easy to tie a rope to. With the coach driver gently mud plugging in reverse and me gently snatching forward we got him out. I say 'snatching' because I don't have the same control with an automatic that I had with a clutch. Eventually he stopped and I found that I was skidding too as I tried to pull him on his handbrake. I lost 12 inches off the towrope because I couldn't undo the knot! Had to cut it free.
It's an odd feeling turning sideways under power on mud. The coach driver told me it was too heavy for me to pull him out, even more so with his handbrake on.
" But I don't think £4 for an oil filter or £200 for a cambelt change are too bad."
I'm taking mine in for an 18 000 mile oil and filter change next week. I'll relate what it cost.
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As this thread has popped up again, the outcome: I bought a 2004 Legacy 2.5 SE. Very nice. Very comfortable and something of a riot to drive. Haven't had chance to test any of its towing abilities, however!
Interesting thing (in the light of some of the comments above). I gave a friend who has just bought a 9-5 estate a spin round the City. His main observation was how much "newer" and "tighter" it felt than his (equally nearly-new) 9-5.
Still haven't seen another one in my part of London (EC2). But half a dozen last weekend in Norfolk.
Yup, I'd recommend them.
Davros
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I took my Legacy into the dealer for an oil and filter change today. Costs as follows.
0.5 hours work @£59.95 £29.98
Gasket-oil drain plug £0.83
Oil filter £4.60
Mobil Super S 10W-40 4.5litre £27.95
Environmental charge £3.75
Sub total £63.91
VAT £11.18
Total £75.09
The mechanic also pointed out that I needed two new front tyres, one of them being in dangerous condition. The offside front is just fine, and the nearside front is worn down to 1 mm on the inside edge. The other 75% of the tread is OK. I don't fell in any way worried.
In an earlier thread I related how ATS had pointed out how badly out of alignment the tyres were. The near side front had worn 3mm lower on the inside. I took the car in to the dealer and had a complete geometry check and re-alignment. When I asked what all of the figures on the report sheet meant the desk man said that he didn't know, but I could be assured that they were now correct.
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