Being a regular reader i have come to the conclusion that buying a diesel other than new is defiantly a bad buy compared to petrol.Once out of warranty.
Consider the cost of glowplugs ,fuelpumps, any engine work due to the close engineering tolerances, air leaks into the fuel system , smell when refueling,the longer warm-up mileage's required before the car heater blows hot ,noise on idle,black clouds of exhaust fumes on full bore excellent, heavier engines,ect
Advantages good torque , good fuel economy,good resale?
Considering the above why do the motoring press repeatedly try to brain wash us into believing they are the choice over petrol. And why are resale values higher?
Confused wannabe diesel driver (was considering but no longer)
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No plugs,no leads,better economy..................... give me a diesel any time
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Andrew,
I was just going out to start a horrible job but that was a top bait you've laid there.
Let's take my 95K, eight year old Xantia as an example.
>cost of glowplugs - One set at 75K, cost £30 OE Beru mail order.
>fuelpump - This should last to 200K +.
>any engine work due to the close engineering tolerances - Simple regular oil/filter changes should take this engine to 200K + without as much as valve clearence adjustment.
>air leaks into the fuel system - On a properly maintained diesel these are actually rare.
>smell when refueling - but it's better for you than those dreadful unleaded fumes.
>the longer warm-up mileage's required before the car heater blows hot - true but I have a jumper.
>noise on idle - I like that, it tells everyone you have a diesel.
>black clouds of exhaust fumes on full bore - Only the first "dump" of the day.
>heavier engines - the weight difference for modern car type diesels/petrols is often less than carrying a passenger in the front seat.
>ect - There is no ect!
>Advantages good torque , good fuel economy,good resale? - Err quite, those are the advantages I was looking for.
I would far rather the potential repair liability on an eight year old diesel than a five year old petrol.
Thanks for the excuse to keep out of the workshop for another 15 mins. ;-)
David
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I'd consider buying an oil burner, but the local diesel is of varying quality - from fair to cr*p!
I would hate to invest some serious cash, only to have the motor running inefficiently due to circumstances outside my control. At least the petrol here (still leaded, yeah!) is a constant.
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Having run diesels for the last 12 or 15 years, I would not go back to a petrol.
As David said, getting rid of the ignition system is worth it on its own.
The heater on my car is pushing warm air in inside half a mile: it depends on the cooling system design, not the type of fuel.
Good torque, long engine life, reliability and fuel economy are major plusses. Plus up to a third off your fuel bill if you go on the Continent.
And resale values are higher simply because more people see the advantages.
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I enjoyed the turbo diesel in my Mits double cab pickup (now foolishly sold). It was fast, gave absolutely no trouble whatsoever over 4 years of traffic, off-road, express way blasts. Economical and quiet, often passengers would ask me if I was sure it was a diesel. Can't say I noticed any diesel smells at all unless I went near the tailpipe when it was idling. Diesels may have been agricultural once but not any more. I'd have another tomorrow, 'cept I got my V-8 now, heh heh.
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Growler, did you take the plunge on that Mustang, then?
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I have been thinking about cold starting problems on older diesels, and I wonder if we are all the victims of a war between engineering and manufacturing departments. Waiting for the glowplug light to go out is only a minor inconvenience, but I am sure that it is one that marketing people would like to minimise. So the timer is set for the shortest period that will warm the plugs up enough to start the engine. The trouble is, on an older vehicle with slightly worn bores and injectors, the warming perod is not enough. Hence difficult cold starting. Perhaps there is a market for a replacement timer for older vehicles, which will heat up the glowplugs for longer.
I am fairly indifferent between petrol and diesel vehicles, but I generally find that decent cheap petrol cars are easier to find than good diesels, simply because there are more of them. I travelled as a passenger in a new Passat the other day and thought that it was the 1.8T petrol version - very swift and quiet. Then at the end of a 200 mile journey I saw the badge on the boot. It was a diesel, and I hadn't realised. Amazing.
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Diesel for me every time too......
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My Pug 405 has not fallen apart...and these are renown for fragile build quality. Only major items have been brake pipes 9known fault on old ones) and clutch.
rg
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The surviving diesels speak for themselves...
300,000+ on several Pug XUD9s from a local taxi firm. Folklore reports giving 600,000+ on others. See HJ buyers guide on this site.
My own beloved 405 1.9 atmo 238,000 and passing emissions tests with flying colours each year. 50+mpg offsets 0-60 the same day. Starts first time if decent plugs used (never again will I stray from Bosch - steer clear of major motoring chain "own brands...")
rg
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As people have said before, if someone invented the petrol engine now, nobody would take it seriously. All that effort and electrickery just to make the thing go. Then there's the highly explosive fuel, the immense technical efforts you have to go to to come anywhere near diesel economy, and the loss of power and driveability that results. Now that some research is being done into the diesel engine, it is turning out to be by far the better design in almost all circumstances - I'll give F1 to the petrol engine, for now.
Chris
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Diesel engines are ok for workmen,but you wont ever see a diesel engined Lexus,and Honda arnt big on smelly old diesel.Seriously though in the UK the cost saving benefits need a long hard look,i think you need to be doing a very high mileage to make it worthwhile,and i think in that respect LPG conversion on a petrol car is a better bet.I really hate filling a diesel,the smell and mess at most pumps is pretty bad,but is an improvement to 1985 when my wife got her first diesel Escort 1600 and everywhere had to fill up with the buses and trucks,who seemed to think diesel fuel improved if left in puddles on the floor.
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Can't agree with Petrol being better for all the reasons that everyone gave above.
With every diesel I ran, never once did I ever wonder in the morning if it was going to start in the morning, and I ran them for 7 years and intergalactic mileages, and not once did any fail. (except a dead battery after leaving it parked for 11 months - fair enough)
Every petrol I have ran has left me stranded at some point. When I get around to replacing my current petrol car, I'll be going back to the yellow pumps.
Lee.
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It appears the typical Diesel owner is proud of owning a car which is capable of giving up to 200.000 miles. Why anyone would consider this to be a reason to own one I'm not sure.Usually by this mileage the rest of the car will have worn out and been replaced (high mileage drivers excluded)
In car heater tests , the Diesel is always the last to warm up, a recent posting from a Golf diesel driver mentioned 6 to 8 miles to get the car warm.
I drive 5 miles to my place of work and clock up 10k ayear, i like a quite and warm car (yes heated by engine inefficiencies).
Yes with my local driving i only get 25mpg but i doo have 180bhp and 172pdft of torque at 1950 at hand (1.8t), so i note your comments but don't think I'm ready for a diesel just yet , perhaps when i retire?
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Compare the 170lbft of torque on your 1.8t with the 230lbft (approx) you get out of the 130bhp Tdi. I've been able to compare back to back these two and unless you like to scream around on the red line you will find the diesel is more powerful. (mind you I am very fond of the 1.8t)
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Depends what you want, I guess. I've had two petrol and two diesel cars in the last 12 years and I currently have a 406 HDi. It:
- warms up much quicker than my petrol Mondeo did (I can feel the heat within 2 miles)
- is a darn sight cheaper to run (45-50 to the gallon and nearly 700 between fills)
- doesn't give out clouds of black smoke (although admittedly my 405 1.9 TD did)
- cruises at the same speeds I used in the Mondeo, and quietly too
The diesel pumps I use don't throw out fumes.
I personally don't have much use for huge performance or bhp in a car, although the torque is useful and a quick change-down in the Pug gives some surprising acceleration. However, I admit that for real fun, I stick to two wheels.
Somehow, though, I don't think you'll be convinced........................
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Andrew,
You'll notice I was making a strong case for the diesel without really knocking petrol cars.
If someone else were paying the bills, or circumstances were different, I might consider a V8 petrol as an extension of the "diesel feel" at lower revs, plus a little more refinement at tickover.
I would comment that at 5 miles each way to work you will be giving that petrol engine a hard time. I would guess the 25mpg demonstrates how much time it is spending on a rich warm up cycle.
How about a 306TD as a second car plus a coat?
David
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If you are worried about noisy diesels try getting one with proper insulation. I can't hear mine at all plus the 190bhp and 300lb/ft give adequate overtaking power. You may get 25mpg in town but nearer 30mpg represents 20% more effieciency.
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Andrew
I think, like many things it depends on your personal priorities, diesels have their strengths over petrol as people have already outlined. If your top priority is costs and you are talking about a vehicle that is out of warranty, it is very difficult to choose. Repairs are such a random factor they can easily shift the total cost advantage between similar diesel and petrol cars.
I was very interested in the message from Paul in my ?Taxis? thread (04/01/02):
?I've had 11 Cavalier petrols as Taxis. Only one morning off the road (head gasket). Perfect for the job. Wouldn't touch a diesel, too many of my mates lose days due to head problems, pump leaks, emissions etc, etc........ Economy is not MPG!!?
I certainly agree that Economy is not MPG, on a pence per mile basis, the cheapest car I?ve had in the last 20 years was a petrol Volvo 740 that managed 24mpg on a good day! The reasons it came out cheapest were - it was an old car, depreciation was very little and during the two years I had it repair costs were nil! just routine servicing.
For several years in the mid-90?s we had two similar family cars, one petrol one diesel. Again on a pence per mile basis the petrol was cheaper to run because of lower maintenance and repair bills, but I always preferred to drive the diesel!
I?d suggest trying both petrol and diesel versions of any cars you are interested in and buy the one you like.
Regards
Paul R
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I think that it all comes down to personal preference - I prefer diesels, because of the way they drive. That kind of driving style suits me. I'm sure there's just as many people who prefer the driving style associated with a petrol.
If you prefer the driving style associated with a petrol, you will probably find driving a diesel disappointing, and I'm sure you'll be able to make it smoke!
But then, I've found many cars have a tendency to smoke if driven at their redline a lot, which does seem to be the knee jerk reaction for small engined petrol drivers when they first drive a diesel. But that's just a habit thing; when I have to drive a petrol, I find myself changing gear too early, and having to rev it to high (and noisy) engine speeds to get anywhere. I personally don't like having to drive like that. I'm not knocking those who do, though - it's a preference thing.
Economy - I've personally found it cheaper to run a diesel, but then the mileage is my major consideration. Purely in commuting, I do 60 miles a day, so I need a car that will last a while. It won't start under -4, though :)
I must admit David W, I too could warm to a V8.. I'd be practically roasting to a V10 under the bonnet of a Dodge Viper :) Rumour has is that the V10 engine of a viper is just a modified dodge diesel truck engine - can anyone with the relevant knowledge comment?
But, overall, I must agree with ChrisR, I think the diesel engine is the superior design, and when there is even more refinement to the point where you can't tell the diesel and petrol variants apart even at idle (already in some top end BMW, VW, Audi, etc), then diesel will rule the world!! Ahahahaha!!
(ahem) :)
-David L
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Diesels are very much overated, consider the long term effects of the pollution from a diesel vechicle which pours carcinogen's from the exhaust pipe. If the cost of diesel was much cheaper, great but my health is more important than the small cost savings running a diesel.
Eleanor
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Whereas petrol exhaust is full of nothing but sweet smells and pure sparkling water. Not.
Lots of research to contradict you Eleanor. But the fact is burning fossil fuels is a bad thing. The less you burn, the better. Therefore, get a diesel.
Chris
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Rubbish, research clearly shows the amount of pollution created to produce diesel in the first place is bad enough never mind the lethal fumes from the exhaust. Check your facts before you post your ill conceived thoughts.
Eleanor
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Which lethal fumes would these be? The PM10 diesel particulates that can be coughed up, or the PM2 particulates (invisible to the naked eye) produced by petrol engines that are small enough to attach themselves to the haemoglobin and travel round your respiratory system? Or maybe it was the benzene (one of the nastiest carcinogens around) that is present in the exhaust from petrol engines? Or perhaps the metals that gradually erode from catalytic converters, the effect of which on humans is unknown? I won't start, yet again, on the topic of biodiesel.
As I said, fossil fuels are bad for us. We should use less of them.
Chris
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Bio-diesel takes 7 acres of corn to produce suffiecent fuel to power the average vehicle for a year, do the math and tell me how great Bio diesel is for planet earth. I live in Minnesota and we have a federally funded program for farmers to produce corn to be turned into Biodiesel, if it were not for the federal subsidy the gallon cost would be much higher than regular diesel never mind the 7 acre issue.
Eleanor
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You can use recycled oil. Plenty of that around. Also it can be mixed with regular diesel. True, it costs more than dinodiesel, but just like the rest of us, the United States is going to have to get used to higher fuel costs before very much longer anyway. It's already widely in use in Europe, where the tax regimes mean it costs about the same at the pump as the regular stuff - actually, raw vegetable oil works fine in warm weather, but that would be illegal.
Chris
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Peugeot have designed a trap to catch all these particualtes and then burn them at 700ºc when necessary. (The bigger the particle the easier it is to catch it so therefore I presume that PM10s are easier to catch than the crap thrown out by petrol engines).
If you are based in USA then you will never really understand the point of the diesel and you will go on about how dirty they are, which is ironic coming from a person who lives in the most polluting country in the world.
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>If you are based in USA then you will never really understand the point of the
>diesel and you will go on about how dirty they are, which is ironic coming
>from a person who lives in the most polluting country in the world.
Here, here!
My personal theory is that it's a bit of US government brainwashing. It's no surprise that the US have legislation specifically to discourage diesel, and publish the most damning diesel reports. Consider, if we all switch to diesel fueled cars, and we will use less fuel, what impact would this have on the lucrative oil industries?
The same could be said about our tax penalties on diesel fuel.
Ooerr, that got a bit political. Sorry all. The point was purely to illustrate that certain emissions reports may not carry as much weight as their face value due to hidden political agenda. (gets off soapbox)
-David L
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I live in the US through marraige not choice and am constantly lecturing on the high pollution consequences of Detroit churning out inefficent low MPG vehicles. However the answer is not diesel, one of the answers is to develop renewable engergy sources like hydrogen powered vehicles which would lessen our dependency on the Bin Oil countries and clean up the enviroment. Quite a few of the major manufacturers have hydrogen powered vehicles in the development stage right now. If the engineers and scientists were driving goverment policy we would be far better off.
Eleanor
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Eleanor
Nobody here has argued that diesel is the final answer. But I will say that I think it is the best we can do in large numbers right now with proven, tested, existing technology. It would be even better if the oil companies would loosen their grip on the goolies of government and allow more biodiesel production. Of course they have no incentive to do that, especially with GWB in charge in the US.
Chris
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I am in almost complete agreement with Chris. Responsible scientific research has shown that, of the current engine types available, diesel engines are more environmentally friendly than petrol. I am a bit disappointed in Eleanor's flawed arguments on this, given the excellent contribution she usually makes to this forum.
A small disagreement though -- some of the particulates produced by diesel engines are smaller than PM10, small enough to be invisible to the naked eye. However, the visible smoke produced by diesels does comprise PM10 upwards, which size is recognised by experts as being non-carcinogenous.
Technology is available to convert practically all diesel particulates into far less harmful emissions (e.g. the Peugeot exhaust after-treatment system) and this enhances the environmental argument against the petrol engine.
p.s. My two cars have petrol engines.
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Whoa, hold on there old girl. Bit of aggro there. On this forum, grown men have been censored for more polite postings that that.
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Quote;
"but my health is more important"
How come any person committing suicide by gassing themselves in a car always choose petrol instead of diesel one.
Something to do with deadly carbon monoxide from the petrol car.
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Having looked at all the options when trying to buy a three year old, 70K, estate for a growing family I concluded the same. Unless you do more than 15K a year, are happy changing your own plugs etc there is little cost benefit of running a diesel.
I'm sure if you want to spend every weekend under the bonnet sorting out the latest small problem on an older diesel then you will be happy with the fuel price saving - but the average motorist who has to leave big repairs to a garage is probably better off with petrol.
Take the Mondeo - 2.0 petrol does 38mpg on long runs - the older TD will only do 45mpg a saving that will be more than offset by one big maintainance "problem".
Unless you are towing or can afford a swish TDI/HDI which you plan to keep for 8 years, the higher initial cost and and bills do not, for most motorists warrant a switch.
Plus diesels do produce dangerous particulates unless fitted with a trap - sure CO2 output is lower but while it may harm the Ice caps it is not as dangerous to breath....
Ready to be shot down in flames by the parafin club...
Over
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Miles,
You will note I mentioned I was trying to put the case for diesels without being anti-petrol.
I agree it is possible to make a case for petrol if all running costs are taken into account, if your mileage is at the lower end of the scale and you were buying/trading in at a dealers where they will skin you for a nice diesel. Fair enough.
But don't knock the diesel on "needing to be under the bonnet every weekend" and "changing your own plugs".
I am able to pull up full service records on this PC for loads of diesels that go back years in some cases. All of these cars are over 40,000mls, most around 100,000 and several over 200,000mls.
Not one of these vehicles has needed a replacement diesel pump or suffered any serious diesel related breakdown. Most of them will have had the glowplugs routinely replaced around 75,000mls but your petrol needs plugs as well at a greater frequency.
What these, and the petrol cars I look after, have needed are brake pads, discs, suspension bushes, springs, shocks, ign switches, door locks, alternators, starters, tyres, exhausts, batteries, air-con repairs, abs repairs and so on. It's those bits that stack up the bills more than the particular fuel system.
Horses for courses yes but the diesel is no maintenance nightmare.
David
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French Diesels stink!
The past 4 cars I've owned with XUD 1.9 diesel(Citroen/Peugeot) have all had fumes entering the car despite sound exhaust and serviced engine, good tailgate and bulkhead seals. No garage has ever been able to find the cause on any of them.
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Your fumes and not somebody else's?
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I'm just clearing out all my rubbish to move house and have found the little furry Newcastle United penguin that used to live in my old ZX TD.
His little furry white belly is black with soot. Could be from other cars, but I recall the whole car gained a coating, so I think it's probably self-inflicted.
A mate with an AX forte a few years back complained about the smell of cat fumes (not the feline variety) under hard acceleration in the cabin.
So maybe it's just poor sealing on these cars, petrol or diesel.
Lee.
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I think you are right Lee, I've owned two 309 diesels, one ZX and one Xantia, all with the same problem. And they wonder where the increased rate of lung cancer comes from!
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Yes, I drive mostly thru the highland glens with only sheep for company(dont read anything into that!)
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Alf,
You have been unlucky or are very sensitive. Still you obviously loved them or you wouldn't have had the second, third and fourth ones!
I know I would say this but I've never noticed the problem on Cit/Pugs or any other car I look after. The owners haven't reported it as a fault either.
If my Mother-in-Law knew she *wasn't* going to like anywhere you took her she would get out of the car and say "I can smell gas", then she'd spend the rest of the time saying it made he sinus's hurt.
;-)
David
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No, I've never experienced this either - and the current BX has a *small* hole in the exhaust at the moment.
Chris
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David,
I suspect I have been unlucky in choosing the XUD 1.9(persevered as everyone rages how great its supposed to be!) as I have recently driven other diesels, Vauxhalls etc and they dont smell at all. I can only assume that it is bad workmanship on the body. The 309 tailgate can be a poor fit and the ZX tailpipe seems too short, The Xantia, in common with them all seems to draw the smell through the 'fresh air' vents at the base of the windscreen. I suppose the fumes may be coming over the bulkhead sealing rubber, which I have replaced. Basically the cars have been well looked after (not many phone boxes in the glens and mobiles dont work too well either) but all suffer from the same problem. Coincidence or just bad design?
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Bad luck, I think. My 309 XUD9 was marvellous. I miss it still.
Chris
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I'm with you there Chris, I've driven all sorts of lumps under the bonnet and would be very happy to find another XUD on the drive tomorrow.
(Can we make the magic 100 messages - what will happen? Will some kind of millenium type bug destroy the forum...?)
8-/
Lee.
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20 years ago, the average petrol engine was a fairly slow revving old thing with lots of low down torque (think BL O-Series, Ford Pinto). The British motorist evolved a driving style well suited to the cars on the market at the time, which is the way my mother drives - select top gear as soon as possible, and don't change down unless you actually come to a halt. Since then, ever tightening emissions regs have forced manufacturers down the route of multi-valve heads, which work most efficiently at high RPM. The result is that your average modern petrol engined car is as flat as the proverbial witch's tit below 4000 rpm. Additionally, in an attempt to flatter the abilities of the clumsiest drivers, manufacturers now build lots of delay into the throttle response, most notably when you lift off. This artificial flywheel effect further erodes the advantage of petrol engines over diesel.
Diesel engines (whose power delivery well suits the average driver) have got an awful lot better over the last few years; but I would argue that petrol engines have meanwhile got worse, at least in terms of real-world drivability. However, if you enjoy hearing a multi-cylinder engine singing sweetly at high revs (as I do) a good petrol motor will always provide more pleasure than a diesel one. Ever wondered why diesel motorbikes haven't caught on?
But 99% of the time we're not having fun, we're trying to get from one place to another, and a torquey, economical modern diesel will do this much better than most current petrol offerings in the same class.
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Richard, shame on you. Diesels don't sound good? Did you never hear the hum of a Deltic railway locomotive? I agree though that a diesel motorbike might be a little wearing on the ears.
Chris
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Chris, you have heard a Deltic diesel locomotive "hum"? You need to get your hearing aid overhauled!
I love the sound of the Deltic, with the 72 pistons of its two engines thrashing up and down the cylinders. However that can hardly be called a hum, even before the oil warms up and allows the multitude of gears to rattle away.
I'd love to see one in a car though! Even more impressive than the Merlin aero engine that John Dodds fitted to his Rolls Royce in the 1960s, and which upset the Rolls Royce management for some reason (I thought it was excellent publicity). Anyone else remember/know John Dodds? He was an auto box repair specialist who would fly out to you in his aeroplane!
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I grew up about two hundred yards from where these things used to pull away from a station (thankfully only twice a day). It was a hum/rumble/earthquake. OK, so "hum" doesn't quite cover it. Fantastic, though. I suspect fifty tonnes of Deltic engine might play havoc with the front shocks.
Chris
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Chris,
>I suspect fifty tonnes of Deltic engine might play havoc with the front shocks
Not if you put it in a Lada??
PS. Top marks for restraint earlier!
David
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David
I've been rtaking Mark (B's) calmness pills.
Chris
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Am I right in thinking there's still a Deltic running at the North Yorkshire Moors railway? (now I'm seriously becoming nerdy - if anyone knows they can mail me offline to save incriminating themselves)
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Lee
At the risk of entering nerd-dom, I think at least two survived, and one went to the National Railway Museum. They might run it somewhere.
Chris
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Thgere are several Deltics still running. One called into the Nene Valley Railway (NVR) near Peterborough last weekend with a rake of coaches carrying 400+ Deltic nerds. Another was based at the NVR for several weeks last year.
Sorry to deviate from the original topic -- but the Deltic is the ultimate diesel engine!
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There's probably a site that deals with this on the net somewhere..
BTW - Another plus for diesel ownership: longer exhaust life.
rg
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David Withers wrote:
>
> I love the sound of the Deltic, with the 72 pistons of its
> two engines thrashing up and down the cylinders. However
> that can hardly be called a hum, even before the oil warms up
> and allows the multitude of gears to rattle away.
>
> I'd love to see one in a car though! Even more impressive than
> the Merlin aero engine
Isn't it odd how some things remain in your memory? I can never forget seeing a Deltic standing light in a siding just south of Leicester's Midland station, some time in the early seventies. The engine was ticking over and, rather than hum, it seemed to throb, because in fact you could feel it rather than hear it. The noise seemed to be subsonic. But what a sense of restrained power!
Coincidentally my wife said much the same thing a few years ago after she'd seen an Avro Lancaster pass low over the beach at Eastbourne Air Show. She'd felt the Merlins' vibration a long while before she heard it and realised where it was coming from.
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...well off-topic, or what?
Try "Steam Railway" magazine. Should provide all the answers.
(newsagent will put in a brown paper bag if you are sensitive about it)
Is this still a valid string MBRM? I see you are straying too.
rg
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Rob Govier wrote:
>
> ...well off-topic, or what?
>
> Try "Steam Railway" magazine. Should provide all the answers.
>
> (newsagent will put in a brown paper bag if you are sensitive
> about it)
>
> Is this still a valid string MBRM? I see you are straying too.
>
> rg
Ha! I was going to suggest a poll for the most powerful vibrator in the world -- the Deltic or the Lancaster. Now that *would* have been off topic. So, think yourself lucky, Rob!
[PS I see you're doing your bit to help reach the ton yourself, since you appear to have posted your gripe twice! Not sure if that's allowed in longest-thread rules. We'd better check this with DW.]
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NYMR best choice for decent thrash of the locomotive due to wacky gradients A challenge even for expereinced drivers.
So we have a few closet train buffs on the team, then?
rg
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Chris
2 stroke diesels don't count, especially great big huge ones with lots of cylinders. The old diesels (Gardener?) that Foden and ERF used to use in their trucks sounded great when worked hard, but even the best German six cylinder motors as used by Audi and BMW don't sound anything like as good as the petrol equivalents. It might be different if you could get them up to 7000 rpm though.
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Whilst on the subject of diesel motorbikes, check out (mostly old enfields, but worth a look) :
journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html
and Chris, I think diesels sound great too, especially turbocharged ones! Brooom! (ahem)
On air pollution, its widely accepted that diesels produce fewer atmospheric problem pollutants than an equivalent petrol engine, such as CO2, and produce hardly any CO, as the combustion is always in excess oxygen, so it's always completely burnt.
On carcinogens, it's worth noting that benzene is also a carcinogen. Benzene is emitted from any fossil fuel burning engine (as I understand). However, in petrol, as the fuel is so volatile, it is emitted as the fuel stands and evaporates. That's the petrol smell at petrol stations. Diesel is less volatile, so the benzene obviously doesn't tend to evaporate at normal temperatures.
In terms of particulates, Chris pointed out the size of the particulates, and the relative effects. This seems to have been ignored in certain (government) reports. I have to wonder why the anti diesel agenda?
Please note, I'm no chemist or doctor, and I'm not pretending derv is perfect. It is after all, a fossil fuel, and again, I agree with Chris, burning them is bad.
Discuss?
-David L
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Diesel motorbikes haven't caught on because there are none for sale.
(Chicken and egg, anyone?)
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No, Brian, diesel bikes haven't caught on because it's a bad idea. A typical modern sportsbike engine produces around 120BHP from 900cc at 13,000 rpm and weighs nowt. To get the same power from a diesel it would have to be turbocharged, at least 1.6 litres and would weigh more than a full-dress Harley Davidson. Even low-tuned trail bike engines are making close to 100BHP/litre, which is out of reach with current diesel technology, at least at a sensible price and weight. And if you just want economical commuting, my old Honda C90 Cub cruised at 50mph and returned 120mpg. Once your fuel bill gets below £5 a week, there aren't a lot more worthwhile savings to be had.
On the other hand, the old Enfield single is such a rough and vibratory affair that replacing it with a small diesel probably improves the refinement....
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on the market ...in India. I think it does about 70 mpg and has a top speed of about 40 mph (or possibly less). Acceleration figures don't come into reckoning!
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I think the British Army has commissioned a diesel bike which may go on sale to the lucky public eventually. The rationale was to have all vehicles in a unit able to use the same fuel.
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Eleanor, May I reproduce a couple of your recent contributions.
Author: Eleanor (---.CUSTOMER.DSL.ALTER.NET)
Date: 09-01-02 14:33
....If the cost of diesel was much cheaper, great but my health is more important than the small cost savings running a diesel.
Eleanor,
Which Bentley
Author: Eleanor Coughran (209.234.32.---)
Date: 02-12-01 19:44
I am a Brit living in the land of cheap petrol (US) we are looking to buy a late eighties or early nineties Bentley Turbo. Any model recommendations would be greatley appreciated. Are the electronics complicated? is the transmission British or a US product?
Eleanor
: Eleanor (---.CUSTOMER.DSL.ALTER.NET)
Date: 09-01-02 15:03
Rubbish, research clearly shows the amount of pollution created to produce diesel in the first place is bad enough never mind the lethal fumes from the exhaust. Check your facts before you post your ill conceived thoughts.
Hello Eleanor,
I read with some interest your disapproval of diesel, as per your first quote above, and also your, not unreasonable, concern re. your health due to emissions.
I have then noted your earlier query regarding the purchase of a Bentley Turbo
which does......15mpg?
I'm not sure that you can legitimately express environmental concern on the use of diesel and then refer to the ownership of said Bentley.
Your last, somewhat bad tempered sounding, post does nothing to explain this apparent disparity.
A vast and predominantly technical issue this, about which I am technically not qualified to speak on with authority. However I don't think I'd get on my soapbox to denigrate the use of a particular type of fossil fuel, and at the same time advertise my desire to buy a Bentley.
Then again I'm usually wrong. I expect to be told if I am!
Regards, KB
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> Eleanor (---.CUSTOMER.DSL.ALTER.NET)
>Date: 09-01-02 15:03
>Rubbish, research clearly shows the amount of pollution created to produce >diesel in the first place is bad enough
I thought that diesel was actually a by-product of producing petrol and actually uses LESS energy and resources to refine. Refining petrol therefore uses more energy using processes before it can be 'classed' as petrol.
BTW if you do want to drive a big gas guzzling Bentley, then quite clearly it shows you do not give a toss about the environment in the first place!
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CM, as posted earlier, check this link for Indian Royal Enfield diesel bikes:
journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bikes.html
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Richard, my fuel bill's about £14 a week for 400 miles on a 250 (well 230) cc.
I got 85,000 miles out of the last oneand it was the bike bits which failed before the engine.
Trouble is, I'm a sucker for innovation !
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Don't think you've answered my point though Eleanor. If you're " constantly lecturing on the high pollution consequences of Detroit churning out inefficent low MPG vehicles", should you not be 'leading by example' then, and not driving one of the very vehicles you're campaigning against? No intention to offend or start a fight, but can't see your logic here.
KB
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PS I haven't got a diesel myself at the moment, but note the 60-65mpg attainable from modern diesel supermini's. My Yaris petrol is reckoned to be quite thrifty, but it's not doing anything like the above.
KB
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I've enjoyed the Eleanor / KB stuff here and even more amused by the fact that E lives in US by marriage - not choice ! Sorry Eleanor.
Good arguments on both sides but I'm sure that the Bentley would be a different prospect if paying our fuel costs in the UK. 7 acres for one vehicle sounds good to me really and would be a good contribution even if not the whole answer. Isn't it the case that this is a 'greener' process than burning up locked up carbon from fossil fuels as we are simply returning 'current' carbon back to the atmosphere.
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Your answer to ridding our South African friend of his house martins......
>Buy an air rifle and have some fun.
>Eleanor
Are you sure ? - having just provided then with some clean, fresh air to breathe......
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Pete,
Of course you could just back the Bentley up to the wall under them and leave it idling, that should shift them.
No good trying it with a diesel as the soot would fall harmlessly to the ground.
David
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PS.
Excellent thread Andrew. 0 - 50 posts in ten hours. Top forum performance figures.
David
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Ian: I'm bickering on the price of the 'Stang. Should know by the weekend.
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I might have mentioned it here before, but one lesson I learned with my diesel Clio is not to drive/attempt to drive through the ford crossing the River Can in Good Easter. My fault entirely (as usual) but it took in water through the usual place and hydraulic'd half way across, leaving the car with water seeping through the doors and me spaddling out of the River Can with (a) Very wet lower limbs and (b) Pound note signs appearing in front of my eyes. Cost of repairs - £2200.
KB no drive through fords any more.
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KB wrote:
>
> I might have mentioned it here before, but one lesson I
> learned with my diesel Clio is not to drive/attempt to drive
> through the ford crossing the River Can in Good Easter.
Not quite like driving Dennis, is it, KB?
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I am sure we could turn all the acres that the Common Agricultural Policy is paying farmers to leave fallow under "Set-Aside" over to biodiesel production.
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well off-topic, or what?
Try "Steam Railway" magazine. Should provide all the answers.
(newsagent will put in a brown paper bag if you are sensitive about it)
Is this still a valid string MBRM? I see you are straying too.
rg
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Well, Andrew, you started this one, what's the answer? Is it good, bad or just too smelly? Thanks for getting the chaps (and lasses) stirred. What's your view now? Come back and let us know. I'd certainly get another.
KB
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David, What is the "record" for the number of posts on a given subject?
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KB,
Not sure but several have gone well over 60.
The last few were the slightly stressful ones on the Switching Drivers/Mr Hart/Selby rail crash so nice to see this one fly on a tech motoring based subject.
Somene might be sad enough to stay up all night and tell you the longest, or they might have a good memory.
David
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Nearing 100, and still no Bogush or Ladas are slow! Is THIS a record?
Let's go for 200 - but we need to stoke the fires a bit.
Possible new sub-thread:
"Freelander Diesels are brilliant"?
:)
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ian (cape town) wrote:
> "Freelander Diesels are brilliant"?
You bloody what ?????????
I concede that they cannot possibly be worse than the petrol, since that would involve not actually having an engine, but brilliant ? The original diesel rattled and shook more than any steamtrain.
I can't imagine that the new one is any better, since even if it was a good engine, Landrover would have loosened or misaligned the mountings in order to continue to shake off all the bits they didn't tighten properly when they cobbled it together in the first place.
I would also hazard a guess that your average steam train has better off-road performance than a Freelander, and certainly has more efficent 4 [12?} wheel drive.
You just wait, Landrover are currently plotting how to make the new Freelander engine out of green plastic and old Tonka toys.
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This really has been a very busy thread indeed. 70ish posts now, is it? And all about a liquid fuel. Imagine if we'd been discussing coal!
Perhaps this would even warrant a bit of a section on the HJ site all about the different fuels, advantages, disadvantages, emissions, etc. (perhaps with a note never to mention the subject on the forum, too)
To the regulars : does this kind of heated discussion manifest itself often?
-David L
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David,
Hello, I hope you're finding your way around here.
>To the regulars : does this kind of heated discussion manifest itself often?
Erm....the above thread was quite mild, very mild actually. If you want to read
www.honestjohn.co.uk/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=28898&t...8
it might give you an idea what to avoid for a relaxed time!
David
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Read and duly noted; thank you, David
-David.
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I was having lunch in a pub near Newark a couple of years ago, and saw two in an hour - apparently they had just been restored and were hauling enthusiasts' special trains. I thought something was up when about 40 people turned up in the pub car park with cameras and tape recorders.
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I fear we are wandering well off topic, but take a look at this:
www.baemclub.com/deltictom.htm
The skill required to build your own fully-working miniature Deltic engine defies belief.
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Martyn, you bounder! Just as was trying to put the trials and tribulations of driving Dennis's behind me, you go and bring it all back. The only good thing about driving someone elses ........err..vehicle, is you haven't got to pay the bills when they go wrong. And I imagine the diesel engine in a Dennis then (or a Volvo now)....makes my Clio bill look tame. Having said that they didn't like you getting them stuck in mud. That was the one thing that really gave them the 'ump - and you could expect stern words and written unpleasantries thereafter if the word "Tow Truck" got mentioned.
Why am I telling you something you already know? But thanks for reminding me.
KB
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No problem with nerd-dom here. Last year, whilst in Pickering (yes I am a self confessed name dropper), we ambled round to the station late one evening, as one does, and was mesmorised and delighted to see the Sir Nigel Gresley standing, in the dark but with the crew silhouetted in the glow from the firebox, doing... what crews do in the dark. Slept soundly that night and dreamed of....bits of clinker getting in your eye when you're foolish enough to poke your head out of the carriage window to look at the engine as it goes round a bend.
Speaking of going round the bend..
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Hi, I'm Lee and I used to do volunteer work on a steam railway. I've been clean now for 12 years.
However I don't think you ever lose the interest, and I think there's a rich vein of expertise here on something that will gain me enormous brownie points with my father-in-law.
Two questions :
a) Does anyone know if they run steam trains on the Settle to Carlisle line, and when?
b) Is there anywhere in the country I can organise a day of steam train driving for the aforementioned relative?
I know this isn't strictly on topic, but he'll have to use the car to get to Carlisle. And it isn't very well at the moment.
Thanks
(89 and counting)
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I'm sure I read that The Watercress Line (Hampshire) organise something like that.
I was there with my kids on a Thomas the Tank Engine day, OK? I've got an excuse.
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Lee. it must have been so, so difficult to 'come out' so public'ly. It was a very brave thing to do. Do share it with the group. We're your friends, and here to help you.
Try the following.
www.webguides.com/yorkshire/settle/rail.html
Steam Specials on The Settle-Carlisle Railway
www.visitcumbria.com/carlset/carlsets.htm
Steam attractions in Yorkshire and the North of England
... Steam sites in the North York Moors, Yorkshire Wolds, and other areas of Yorkshire:
The Derwent Valley Light Railway. Steam sites outside Yorkshire: ...
www.eagle.co.uk/steam/yorksteam.html
Ribblesdale Railtours steam trains on the Settle-Carlisle ...
... Ribblesdale Railtours Bringing regular steam to the Settle-Carlisle Railway The
Dalesmade Centre, Watershed Mill, Settle, N. Yorkshire BD24 9LR Tel/Fax (+44 ...
www.ribblesdalerailtours.co.uk
Dales Links - Travel Information
... 21st Century Trains. Steam Trains on the Settle-Carlisle Line. SETTLE - CARLISLE RAILWAY
website.lineone.net/~travelinfo/dales/linktravel.html
Friends Of The Settle Carlisle Line - www.settle-carlisle.org
www.eagle.co.uk/steam.
Line Info, www.settle-carlisle.co.uk
www.settle-carlisle.org/link.htm
OR...........
Settle Station Tel. 01729 823 536
Settle Tourist information. 01729 825 192
Group Travel rates and bookings. 01228 515 439
Cumbria County Council. Settle /Carlisle Hotline. 01228 812 812
KB
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Or maybe this too.......
Learn to drive a steam railway locomotive
... preservation societies" - Steam Railway Nov 1999. ... Stuart Harrison, experienced steam
driver on the S&C ... in The Friends of Settle and Carlisle Magazine Feb ...
www.rail-sales.co.uk/railway-simulation.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
KB
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N Yorks Railway & Severn Valley both organise these and damn good they are too considering they have decent lengths of line as opposed to a couple of miles of iffy branch line. Not cheap mind!
They do from one day footplate experiences up to full weeks training with accommodation and the chance to operate one of the scheduled services.
Ooops thats another cat out of the bag!
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Ian wrote:
"- but we need to stoke the fires a bit. Freelander Diesels are brilliant"?
... or our old fave: the EDIT BUTTON ;o)
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Brill wrote:
>
>
> ... or our old fave: the EDIT BUTTON ;o)
Careful!
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Well I don't think this one stands a cat in hell's chance of making 100.
The only chance we stand is if (to continue with Ian's idea), some one comes up with a topic like....... "Breaking news - Deltic locomotive seen hauling consignment of Diesel Freelanders towards Grosmont, local Green Party members laying on line in protest".
KB
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"Can you clean a dirty diesel engine with a pressure washer?"
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"The only chance we stand is if (to continue with Ian's idea), some one comes up with a topic like....... "Breaking news - Deltic locomotive seen hauling consignment of Diesel Freelanders towards Grosmont, local Green Party members laying on line in protest".
Need to get Gatso's and Stephen Byers into it to make the double ton methinks.
Come on DW, next one is the magic ton and thats the record, think the previous was 97.
signed
Statto
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Rebecca, KB *(extra marks for comprehensiveness, very impressed!) and FIF many thanks for the info.
I think I'll pursue the N Yorks for the driving and call a couple of stations. It'll make me extra popular with the in-laws, which can't be a bad thing.
Now that we're in the unchartered territory of >100 messages, I'm off before something bad happens....
Lee.
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... rolls over and lights a cigarette.
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Lee,
www.northyorkshiremoorsrailway.com
Tel. 01751 472 508
'Pickering - Gateway to the Moors'. When our creator returns to save the world, he'll spend a couple of days in Pickering.
In order to maintain a motoring content - the Service Station sells BP diesel and DW will be pleased to know there's a Land Rover Main Dealer there too.(along with Skoda and Mercedes).
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Thanks,
I've been sniffing around and found that they do a range of suitable options, I'm trying to organezise a birthday treat.
It is a lovely area of the country and perhaps with all the closet train-ies about, would make an ideal venue for a backroom grand day out.
Topic retrieval - it's excellent driving country over the moors, just the thing for a summer jaunt!
Lee
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I do actually know of a 67 Mustang fitted with a Toyota Diesel..................
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I bet the owner puts coke into his Courvousier as well, and uses tomato ketchup on caviare...
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If threads keep getting this long then Martyn BRM is going to have to get a "Go to Bottom of Thread" button incorporated into the next version of Backroom!
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My god, what a thread! Was flicking through threads and it didn't look like a "hot" topic and then I saw 109 posts. It's cost my company an hour of time for me to read this baby!
So, to add my two-penneth:
Most people would probably view a coal fired powerstation as old hat. Similarly, in this day and age coal is not the "preferred" choice of those who display urges to heat their houses above standard British temperatures. We don't run trains off coal anymore (sorry about the coal theme, am trying to type this quickly and have too bad a headache to think of better).
I could probably think of many more examples if I didn't have my boss breathing down my neck.
What I am trying to say is that we're using engines that differ little in fuel and principle of combustion from some of the first cars created over a hundred years ago. You can argue of all the thousands of improvements made to cars over the years (drinks holders anybody?) you'd have thought that by now that we'd have some highly sophisticated and pollution free method of running our cars using a multi-CPU controlled genetically modified fission engine which could do 10000 miles to the rotting cabbage.
Still, rotting cabbages more readily available and less easily taxed than good old gasoline!
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"Most people would probably view a coal fired powerstation as old hat"
Got to be quick on this one too and no doubt John S will add a much better overview than I can. This might be a bit disjointed.
Coal is not old hat, there are vast research projects going on at the moment in Europe (Thermie) (Cost 522) and in USA (I forget the name) to produce more efficient and clean coal combustion technology.
The problem up to now has been that materials are not commercially available to allow you to run PF thermal power stations at the sort of temperatures and pressures needed to get up to the thermal efficiency seen in the modern gas fired combined cycle stations. As I say these research projects are designed to correct that, and new materials are needed right throughout the piece, boiler turbine and so on. Higher thermal efficiency means more MW of output per tonne of CO2 and so on.
The fact is that despite we would all like to produce electricity from non fossil sources, and at the best efficiency we can, the production/reserves ratio shows that coal will still be a fuel of choice for many years to come.
To use your steam train example, efficiency of steam engines is about 7%, a good big diesel is about 50%. Would you want to stand on the footplate shovelling coal when you could sit there in comfort? Errr.. Well yes I would but I have already come out of the closet on that one.
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There is a popular sci-fi book (name and author does not spring to mind) where the space-ships are powered by the flatulence of pigs.
I wonder how Gordon Brown would tax that?
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Brian wrote:
>
> There is a popular sci-fi book (name and author does not
> spring to mind) where the space-ships are powered by the
> flatulence of pigs.
> I wonder how Gordon Brown would tax that?
Dunno -- but maybe one could run London Underground on the combined output of the Palace of Westminster, Whitehall and Ken's place up the road?
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Lee, You're preaching to the converted here. I fell in love with the Moors and Dales only a few years ago. I'd never been 'up north' and was proud of it. Now, when the subject of where to go on holiday crops up, it's not much of a problem - back to Yorkshire. We regret not having discovered it years ago. I now pore over O/S maps of the area like a student. Before I injured my foot, we walked the Dales Way and the Pennine Way before that. Superb!
Thanks for bringing back a bunch of pleasant thoughts.
KB
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...........could be, he definitely uses Brut aftershave.
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Not really.
But it gets more numbers on the thread!
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Most of the larger preserverd RR can provide "footplate experiance days" on Steam, diesel or electric stock...
and if you get a copy of "Old Glory" at the news agent you will find folks who will let you derive traction engines as well as steam lories and old electric and Diesel road equipment... thils will let you make your compairason with 1920s and 30s equipment
(Just wanted to be a part of this record thread VBG)
~R
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Just shows how many people now read this site. I havent seen any other motoring groups this busy. Congratulations HJ.
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Ben Chapman wrote:
>
> Just shows how many people now read this site. I havent seen
> any other motoring groups this busy. Congratulations HJ.
Hrmmmm!
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My as well put my name on this record tread.
Well done for building an excellent backroom, this place is great, think im getting an addiction to it.........
Kev,
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Flatulent pigs - isn't that Mad Max 3? A whole town powered by methane from pigs, if I recall.
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errr just thought id like to be a part of this....
where was I when all this kicked off?
M.
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