I have an old 1985/86 Ford diesel estate car which I use for running my dogs around in.
I have driven it for over 2 yrs. without experiencing any problems whatsoever. However when I tried to start it the other morning it would not start.
Since then my boyfriend has checked the glow plugs, they are all worling okay.He has checked that there is no air in the fuel system and that there is a supply of fuel to the injectors. He has checked that there is power going to the cold start device and fuel cut off solenoid. He has checked that the cam belt isn't snapped.
Consequently he has now run out of ideas as to to why it won't start and would be grateful for any suggestions as to what may be wrong with the car and why it won't start.
I thank you for any assistance you may be able to render.
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"the cam belt isn't snapped"
Maybe belt isn't snapped........ but are all the rubber teeth intact?
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Kim,
A few general points:
1
A check needs to be made to confirm that the fuel is free from water
2
Fuel filtration if fitted, needs to be checked for cleanliness and "sufficient" flow
3
All fuel lines need checking for being airtight.
4
Engine starter cranking needs an "adequate" speed.
5
The injector nozzles need to spray an even pattern.
6
The distribution of fuel should be even for a fixed throttle setting
7
Start Glowplugs need to work for each cylinder.
My own past experience has found that air can get into the fuel system without any obvious reason, and after many trouble free miles. After checking the above, a formal fuel system bleed might well reward you. I am not familiar with your particular engine, but the above applies to all Diesels. Sometimes a little help from a proprietary aerosol diesel start can move things forward, but only after checking the above first.
Please note that a "simple" fuel system bleed is often not adequate to remove the trapped air. A comprehensive one is often needed.
Regards,
Julian
If you feel in the mood , an update would be appreciated.
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Thanks to both of you for your help, I've spoke to him on the phone and as soon as he comes in he is going to make a closer inspection of the cam belt and he has told me that he bled the system thoroughly.
The engine is a 1600 Escort, and I will get back to you as soon as he has had a further look at the engine, although he says that the engine is cranking fast enough to fire.
Thanks again for your help so far.
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This may sound stupid but petrol instead of diesel in the tank?
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I may be stupid but I ain't that stupid Moosh, :( and he has now double checked the cam belt and apparently it is in reasonable condition with no teeth missing or worn.
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There could be an air leak into a perished fuel pipe. I've heard of this before with this engine.
HJ
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Double check the glow plugs - when were they last changed? At around £7 each (*4) they are not expensive. I would put my money on the problem being faulty glow plugs.
This time of year we are fitting loads of glow plugs.
When you crank the engine, what comes out of the exhaust tailpipe?
Rgds
David
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Might be worth swapping the car battery over in case it cannot supply sufficient current to turn motor and heat plugs. If you have a meter you can check the volts on starting. I just have a slight dimming of the lights when the glow plugs heat up.
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There are TWO timing belts on these engines, one drives the camshaft, the other the fuel pump, check both are working. Physically remove the glowplugs and check them across the battery with care, then if you can, get the compressions checked. Finally check the fuel shut-off solenoid on the pump.
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Andrew - this is the more reliable 1600 engine with ONE cambelt. The FIP is driven by gears from the crankshaft, the camshaft is connected from the FIP by a small timing belt, UNLIKE the unreliable 1800 engine with two timing belts.
David ;-)
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Moosh,
A good piece of advice. (Petrol in Diesel tank)
This happens rather too often! Sometimes a helpful relative offers to fill up the car after borrowing it, and then mixes the fuels.
Regards,
Julian
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I always wonder why the car makers and fuel companies don't design an idiot proof nozzle to this end.
The unleaded filler on petrol cars is smaller so that
leaded fuel can't be accidently put in.
Why not an oblong fuel filler for diesel?
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moosh,
although I agree with you enitirely and think its a good idea to have different nozzles, I think there'd be a bit of a problem integrating it into petrol stations, since all diesels up to now have the same nozzle petrol.
Also, with my cynical mind, I can see how it is more beneficial financially to the petrol stations, garages and repair centres for someone to put the wrong fuel in. Seems everyone benefits except the guy who owns the car.
I'll shut up now cos it is a good idea.
Mark.
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Thanks again for all the help, he hasn't done anything for the past couple of days because its been too cold, but he's going to have another look this afternoon.
As I previously stated he's double checked the cam belt and apparently that's servicable. The car has a brand new heavy duty battery that's fully charged and the engine is cranking at a speed that should be sufficient to fire the engine.
If the solenoid cut off element was faulty, would there be fuel coming out of the pipe links that go into the injectors, and should the diesel be coming out of these pipes from the pump into the injectors at more than a trickle, ie should the spray be more prolific?
Also is it possible for the fuel system to have developed air in the system overnight without anyone tampering with it?
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NB, He has individually checked the glow plugs and one was faulty, which he naturally replaced.
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Kim,
I've followed this with interest and most points have been covered.
The only thig I would ask is "by what method do you determine the cranking speed to be sufficient". An older diesel engine often needs a good snappy starter motor for reliable starting.
I've had exactly the same thing with the same car, it appeared to be turning OK on a fully charged batery but was an absolute pig to start. In the end it wouldn't start at all despite turning over for minutes at a time. Fitted a new starter and it was cured just like that.
I've known the same thing with a Volvo and Citroen also, new starters were the answer.
In all three cases the customers were reluctant to change the starters because they were turning the engine over.
David
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Hi I'm Kim's friend. and the problem with her car is that it just won't fire.
The engine is cranking over rapidly enough for it to fire, the battery and starter motor are fine, the glow plugs are Okay, I've tested each separately and changed one that was defective. There is power reaching the cold start device, and the fuel cut off solenoid.
I have thoroughly bled the fuel system and there appears to be enough fuel reaching the injectors. There are approx. 2 galls. of diesel in the tank and the car was driving okay until a couple of days ago when this problem occured overnight.
The only two things that I can thing of that could possibly be wrong are the solenoid or cold start device. The problem with the solenoid is that its virtually impossible to undo to check. Accessibility only allows use of an open ended spanner with severe restriction caused by the radiator and thermostat housing. I cannot get enough leverage on the spanner due to the restrictions and of course like everything connected to the pump is has been torqued up.
The one thing that I would be grateful to know is if the solenoid cut off is defective or jammed up, would it allow fuel to reach the injectors? Because if it wouldn't then obviously that isn't the problem.
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Thanks for the advice ref. the fuel solenoid cut off, and it would appear from what you are saying that I can eliminate that because of the supply of fuel.
Its a real mystery because generally if it were glow plugs or other cold starting devices there would have been signs of previous difficulty starting.
I guess the eazistart is the best option, and I'll try that when the shops re-open on Boxing day.
Thanks again for all the advice and if I manage to get the car started in the near future I'll get Kim to let you know.
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Replace ALL glowplugs, not individually.
I reckon that will have the engine started in no time.
D
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Peter,
My experience with solenoid valves is that if they fail, they fail fully open or fully shut. My guess is that if the unit has failed on your car no fuel would be able to flow with the ignition on. Valve shuttle or diaphragm sprung to close solenoid actuated to open.
If the engine was running smoothly before the failure without any indication of missing (sticking valves?) and if compression on individual cylinders and the glowplugs are OK, focus has to be on fuel delivery. However please take a sample of the fuel in a clear glass container and check visually and by sniffing (petrol) for adulteration. A relative required the complete fuel system on his new Jag XK8 to be cleaned after he picked up a large quantity of water with the full tank he purchased on his way back from the Midlands to Surrey.
If after all your tests you are still in the doldrums, and because I suspect, you have limited access to specialist equipment, try a brief application of Diesel Ezistart via the intake. This should at least encourage the engine to fire and hopefully start. Occasionally, I have found the most effective way to bleed a fuel system (albeit on agricultural tractors) is with the engine running roughly after use of Ezistart and then just opening fuel bleed cocks individually to vent air . David is right to suggest changing all the glowplugs, but just starting the engine will tell you whether air in the fuel lines or something of a mechanical nature is the culprit. If you use EZistart confirm that the cars handbook is not in disagreement with the process.
You'll get there, its Christmas!
Regards,
Julian
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Peter,
One additional point occurred to me. I appreciate that its stating the obvious, but with me giving my five penny worth remotely, it is difficult to get a "fix" on all aspects of the checking process.
Please make sure that you formally check for obvious mechanical failures, ie:
Valve actuation gear and valve springs
Camshaft rotation. Failure of drive connection between drivewheel and camshaft for example.
The fuel pump itself or fuel pump drive.
I know that you are getting something at the injectors, but a partial failure is sometimes possible on some diesel injection systems.
Regards and good luck,
Julian
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Peter
You could try disconnecting the fuel supply pipe from the filter outlet and placing it in a can of fuel.
Then try starting the engine.
If it starts and runs OK then the trouble is a blockage or air leak between the tank and the filter outlet, or else contaminated fuel.
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He says that there can't possibly be any fuel blockage because there is ample fuel supply at the injectors and its unlikely to be fuel contamination.
I had put 2 galls. of diesel in the car and driven over 50 miles so if it had been contaminated it would not have gone that far, especially as it was practically empty when fueled. He also says that if there had been any interference overnight there would have been signs ie fuel cap lock damaged etc. Also its only an old banger and certainly not a target for revenge or envy attacks. I also have a Mercedes SL in the drive which would be a far more likely target and that's Okay.
He's spent the last couple of days rechecking everything and still no sign of firing let alone starting, so as a last resort before we push it down the local car park and dump it he is going to try some diesel easystart tomorrow.
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Kim
The usual contributors have covered all the likely faults, but here are two more:
1) There isn't much fuel in the tank. I had a 1983 Escort (petrol, but I guess the tanks are similar) which would fail to pick up fuel if parked slightly (and I mean slightly) nose down if the gauge was any lower than the top of the red zone. I once drove it out of the garage to go to the local petrol station, stopped the engine while I closed the garage door, and couldn't move the thing!
2) Have the cylinder compressions been checked? Combination of poor compression and a slow starter could be a combination it can't cope with.
Regards
John
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This is getting like one of those job interview questions where they ask a searching question then counter all your thoughts. You are pushed ever tighter into a corner eventually getting out of the interview wishing you knew what the right answer was.
Of course there never was a right answer, your behaviour under this pressure was the whole point.
So Kim's car may not start even now, but the forum has passed the interview.
David
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By my maths - 2 galls of diesel and a 50 mile drive in cold weather. I'll reckon there's barely enough fuel knocking about. Even going on conservative estimates the 50 mile journey would have consumed 1 and a half galls leaving only 2 and a bit litres. Probably some cr*p dragged through the pump and it's not kicking out enough pressure to activate the injector.
Also, I agree that it could be a failure of the vernier pulley on the end of the camshaft failing to open the valves and therefore no go although cranking OK. Trouble is, this doesn't just happen overnight.
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My suggestion was because we had a fault on our Pug 309 which was apparently an air leak on the seals of the manual primer mounted on the filter which resulted in it running if fuel was fed directly from a can to the pump but absolutely no-go if the pipe went onto the filter.
However, probably not that if proper output coming from the injectors.
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Thanks for the further suggestions, and oddly enough the car is parked on an incline in our drive.
The car though does at least 50 mpg and 60 on a run and also since it wouldn't start we've put another gall. in it. My friend says that if there were a blockage in the fuel line then there would be little if any fuel coming through the pump and feeding the injectors.
And he thinks it unlikely that there are major problems with the engine because as someone has stated they would have been unlikely to have occured overnight, and there probably would have been prior symptoms.
Anyway thanks again for all the advice and the forum has certainly passed the test.
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.......but it hasn't solved the problem.
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Not yet Guy, but he is going to try some easystart spray, and strip the filter down later.
Apparently he has found out that there could possibly be an air leak in the system without there being any visible leakage of fuel.
I live in hope. :(
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Guy the Diesel Doctor!
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Guy's getting keen on these diesels methinks. Turn up the dash vent LPG bleed Guy or we'll have you in an oil burner yet.
BTW Never mix LPG and sprouts!
David
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There won't be a leak of fuel. When not running the pressure in the lines will be insufficient to "leak" out of the pipe. However, when the hp fuel pump is running it will *draw* air through the pipe wall. U can't see this.
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Okay, back to the drawing board.
I've trebled checked the glow plugs. I've quadrupleed the check on sufficient fuel being delivered to the injectors, I've tried easystart in the intake manifold, I've double checked the cam belt, I've checked that the exhaust system is clear, I've taken off the fuel filter system,and stripped it down, I've checked the fuel and there is no contamination, I've taken out the air filter and replaced it.
The only two checks that are left as far as I can see is the solenoid fuel cut off and the cold start device , both of which are situated on the pump. There is a power supply to both so if there is a fault in either it is a mechanical one.
What I would be grateful to know is the following. The size of spanner required to loosen both the devices. They have to be open ended spanners that are especially designed for the job because of the inaccessibility. My selection of open ended spanners only go up to 17mm. It is not possible to get a deep socket on either because they are both inaccessible due to their close proximity to the pump. It looks as though they need to be short spanners because access to the cold start device is obstructed by the radiator guard and the radiator itself. A similiar problem occurs with the solenoid fuel cut off.
Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated as it would save me time and money by purchasing the correct tools. Thank you.
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Kim/Peter,
Julian has pointed us back to this post, bit of a puzzle now. Four points from me.
1. Have you checked the engine/pump timing to ensure the cambelt hasn't jumped a few teeth. Long shot but his could just have happened as you tried to start it the first morning it played up.
2. Even longer shot, lift the cam cover to ensure the cam hasn't snapped.
3. Is it worth getting a diesel fitter to look at it?
4. If you want more help start a new thread linking back to this one or we'll forget you.
David
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Peter,
I felt sure that you would have had the success you deserve by now. I guess its down to dogged persistance and teeth gritting now. I am not familiar with the details of your particular car so cannot offer answers to your direct "Q's"
You do not mention however:
1
The effect the Ezistart had: Did it fire, did it run, how long for? Did you prolong the Ezistart to "encourage" the engine whilst it ran roughly? Did you try slightly cracking a bleed screw at the same time?
2
Compression: Have you run a test? Were the pressures even across the cylinders? What were the values?
3
Fuel: This is cheap relative to your time and efforts. Put plenty in to allow for any road inclination and the "personality" of the car.
Your car should run, albeit roughly with Ezistart irrespective of cold start devices ie Excess fuel device and Glowplugs. I agree you need to confirm that the fuel cut off is functioning correctly, but surely as a test, you could isolate this, feeding fuel from a can directly into the pump.
I assume from your previous posts that the prime mechanicals are all in good shape. Are your injectors electro mechanical or straight mechanical?
Success may be a little elusive sometimes, but you'll feel pretty good when you grasp it.
Good luck and keep us posted,
Regards,
Julian
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When I tried the eazistart the car did fire momentarily but immediately cut out, it did fire again with the same response, and then it wouldn't fire again.
The solenoid fuel cut off must be working because there is fuel at the injectors. I haven't got any compression testing equipment but up till the morning the car wouldn't start it was running perfectly and it is unlikely that the engine would deteriate to such a degree overnight that it wouldn't start.
There is plenty of fuel in the tank. I am presuming the injectors are straight mechanical due to the age of the car.
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Peter,
Why is this "delightful" Ford turning out to be such a sod.
I might be wrong, but reading between the lines, something seems odd about some of the detail discussed in earliar posts.
From what you have described, the car ran just fine until it refused to start the next day. There were no previous indications of rough running or misfiring; it started from cold without lots of cranking even in cold weather.
Given the detail of the checks that you have already carried out, unless their is a mechanical failure of some sort, the car should start and briefly run on Ezistart alone, albeit roughly. (particularly if you give an extended spray) I have no experience of this particular engine, so must allow for an intake design feature may just screw the effectiveness of Ezistart. Is this possible?
Its time for purposeful reflection! Are their any indicators in the cars recent history that suggested a component may be on its way out. Could the injection pump have partially failed? could the low pressure supply pump to the injection pump not be working at full efficiency? What is the state of the injectors and their nozzles? Even with all these "Q's" the engine should still run on Ezistart briefly but for a short period - not just a single piston firing.
Another boring check is called for to isolate any possible mechanical failure.
Valve gear
Cam drive and associated belts.
Belt tension
Confirm valve timing to crankshaft. Timing marks should be aligned on camshaft pulley and crankshaft pulley with a datum normally on the belt guard.
All pulleys operating smoothly, none damaged or seized.
Drives to pulleys; keys or pins not sheared.
Compression adequate with even pressures between the pots.
Injection pump OK
We have heard in recent times that low sulphur diesel does not always have the lubricity enhancers needed to lube the injection pump and injector mechanisms. I wonder if this would totally knacker a pump? I do not know the price of compression measuring test kit. At the end of the day you have to decide how determined you wish to be; its the way most of us I guess, build up the tool kit.
Having done the above checks, and passing them to your satisfaction, install a direct, gravity fed fuel suppy to the injection pump, bypassing the fuel cut out valve. Use, for example a 2 litre plastic container with a hose connector mounted in the base of it, and connected onto the injection pump with clear plastic hose and a jubilee clip or similar. You may need to improvise further to refine the set up. Finally bleed air out of the pump. Most of the kit you need can be obtained from Halfords; the balance from a Yacht Chandlers or a Pneumatic valve/automotive systems specialist. (Yellow Pages)
Ensure the cars battery has been given a good overnight charge, and that the improvised fuel supply system has been intensively bled and is free of air bubbles. Whilst one person operates the starter, apply Ezistart to the intake. Continue to crank and apply Ezistart after the engine fires. It should progressively pick up speed until it runs without Ezistart.
Now that you have got the engine to run again you can narow down the search as to where the problem actually is
Keep us posted,
Julian.
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