All of our vehicles need them, yet the information to make rational judgement as to the right choice, largely is non existant. Walk into a tyre dealership and ask for literature on a specific tyre brand and there will ineviably be muffled laughter. The normal routine is for the punter to relate price to the "cool" tread pattern options the dealer has to offer and add whatever expertise of his own that he has mustered to make a decision.
Reflect a moment. The technical personality a manufacturer confers on a tyre is daunting. They can be assymetric, have a specific working temperature and speed range, Tread patterns specific for water dispersal or for noise reduction, Tyre compounds optimised for traction, wear resistance or fuel economy, Tyres that resist tramlining --- etc etc
I have looked at a number of web sites to expand my knowledge but found them generally unimpressive. Some sites give details of tyre tests undertaken by a number of magazines specific to a tyre manufacturer and then discuss in some detail the parameters above. This info' whilst helpful, is subjective and does not put any numerical values against these tests to aid comparison against another manufacturer.
The numerical and lettered values on the side of a tyre for treadwear, temperature and traction have their origins courtesy of the USA and are known there as UTQS - Uniform Tyre Quality Grade. This is a starting point, but the two discriptions of the tests that I have, one from Michelin and the other from www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/tyre_bible, appear to contradict each other and give little understanding as to how the tests are undertaken.
What is needed in my view is a set of numerical values against the primary technical tyre parameters that we need to relate to, to ensure some of the guesswork is taken out of our expensive decision process.
What is your view regarding tyre selection and purchase? What technical tyre parameters would you wish to have comparative numerical values set against?
Hoping that a lively debate ensues,
Regards,
Julian
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This is my take on tyres.
I am lucky enough to have found a independent reliable local man whose recommendations I usually follow. During the life of car tyres, I swap them around so I have to buy 4 at once; good for haggling, bad for cashflow, but it saves running around on a tyres that are deteriorating with age. When the time comes, I ask unashamedly what offers he has on and what his recommendations are for long life and a quiet comfortable ride. In the last few years I have put 4 Gislaveds on the BX, 4 BF Goodriches on the AX and 4 Axxiums on the Synergie. All have proved satisfactory so far. Next up for replacement are the Axxiums which have done a creditable 44K miles since Christmas 1999 and all tyres have 3mm + on them.
As long as they hold air, the technicalities of the round black things that stop your alloys scraping the tarmac are largely irrelevant; nobody in their right mind is going to take the things to the limit on public roads, are they? If they do, and they want to pull bits of hedge out of the door handles after every trip, good luck to them. I seem to remember that Which? did some definitive tests on tyres a few years ago, but concluded that while there were some noticeable differences in life expectation, there were no horror stories.
In the '60s my dad used to swear by the new fangled radial Michelin X tyres which he said lasted forever. Latterly I had a set of Xs on a 2CV which had to be replaced because the sidewalls cracked; they had tons of tread on them after 8 years and 60K miles (I didn't do all of those miles, thankfully).
Tyres, much of a muchness, I'd say.
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Julian, I have to share your fascination with tyres. It is interesting to note that Jo public doesn't appeat to take such an interest as 86 per cent of tyre pressures tested were incorrect, according to one survey. My own views are to chose well known brand names and to avoid budget tyres which are not fully braced radials and are not as strong. What most tyre tests forget is what happens to the performance of tyres when they get worn. The Giant tyre test,see tyres-online.co.uk recommended one particular brand of tyre for overall performance and I enquired about this particular brand at a local dealer who said they no longer stocked this particular brand because they split after a while! I think one can take this subject too seriously. Just use common sense when buying. It might not be a bad idea to ask the vehicle manufacturer what tyres they recommend.A motorcycle magasine reported that the handling of a certain german motorbike was seriously compromised when tyres other than the original ones were fitted as replacements. Regards Mike.
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I hope you do get some response Julian. I've taken an interest recently and looked on the internet and in Which? and asked around. Certainly the number of variables is daunting. Type of vehicle, intended driving style versus life expectancy versus dry/wet grip/stopping distance, comfort, noise......it goes on. Then there's Big Name versus Budget versus Remould. And within the Big Names there's debate and controversy. As you say, visit ten dealers and get ten different views. It's not as though you can try them and return them if you don't like them - and how do you know whether you like them? For most "ordinary drivers" one tyre feels much like another. Michelins seem to have a reputation for long life, and seem to be a bit dearer than many but I don't think you'd go wrong with them. I do think that you should regularly rotate roadwheels to even up the wear and replace the whole set at once. I do think that it's best to stick to one of the big brands. I recently had a puncture in the third (outside) lane on a motorway at about 65 - 70 and managed to get over to the H/Shoulder OK. However I was using a budget brand ( thinking that as it was an older car, that's OK) and the puncture turned out to be a huge bulge in the tread which gave way. I vowed never to economise on tyres again. If you have a tyre related mishap and have good tyres, at least you did your best.
There are some tyre sites on the net - have a look at www.tyres-online.co.uk or find details of Micheldever Tyres on the net. Or just type 'car tyres' in Google. Certainly shop around for the best price on a particular brand - they vary a lot, and get an overall price ie. fitting, VAT, balance, valve, any disposal charge.
Sorry not to be more specific but I don't think that there's a very specific answer to be given.
Most people avoid that chain of suppliers that 'Fit's tyres Kwikly' and go elsewhere, but ring round and see for yourself. Lastly look at the Auto Express magazine tyre tests. In 1999 Dunlop, Goodyear and Pirelli came top.
Good luck.
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Do bear in mind that cars with traction control and stability control are designed to use specific models of tyre. Use the wrong one and the software might not be able to cope. Too much grip, for example, and an unstable design such as the MB A-class will roll. This will become a problem as cars with stability programs become older.
Chris
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My local opel dealer recommends certain brands, and warns people to shy away from others - in fact, he lambastes people who fit (a certain well know brand!), even though it is on price parity with other brands, and not a cheapo.
I've found customer service departments (here they actually live up to their name) of various manufacturers most helpful. In fact, one tyre company stressed NOT to fit a certain type to a colleague's car, as they were "experiencing problems" with the combination.
How's that for honesty?
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Julian,
Interesting topic. I guess we mostly use pot-luck and opinion unsupported by facts or experience.
I have long thought that the average motorist is completely unsuited to making any assessment on tyre brands/types.
An example is a chap who wrote a "definitive" statement in something I read the other day. He was commenting that Bridgestones were a far better tyre than Michelin and saying Michelin had better pull their socks up. The basis for this comment was that he'd replaced the four year old Michelins on the front of his hatchback with new Bridgestones and they were loads better.
Of course the new tyres were better, they were new compared with the original pair right at the end of their life. If he'd fitted new Michelins, or anything else for that matter, he would have experienced the same improvement. Also bear in mind he'd only changed the front pair.
There is only one way to compare tyres and that is to have several sets of wheels with nicely run in tyres of different makes fitted, then test these on the same route under the same conditions. Like the Which test I guess.
Obviously there can be exceptions to this with those who have access to alternative cars on a fleet with different tyre fitments at similar stages of wear. I'm sure some valid personal conclusions can be derived from that situation.
For my own part I have some opinions slightly supported by experience. Because I often have several BXs about I have driven one of them in a week fitted with 165 (standard) Michelins, then changed the set of wheels over so that a korean budget brand (also 165s)were fitted. Finally a third set of wheels were fitted with 175/65 budget+ tyres. All these had a similar tread depth of about 4mm. OK so this car isn't perhaps your dream test bed but it is the nearest I've come to a direct comparison.
Results were that the Michelins were fine and drove as you expect from a BX. The 165 budget tyres were terrible. The ride was OK but the steering lost its edge, wet grip was poor and stability at speed on a curve was reduced. The slightly more expensive 175/65 budget tyres were about on a par with the 165 Michelins, leading me to the conclusion that the best long term choice might be a 175/65 Michelin, sadly none in the yard to test.
In a similar manner I get to drive a lot of 306s in a year. My impression of these is that a Michelin or Goodyear feels great, many cheaper tyres take the edge from that nice sharp handling.
Finally I'm sorry to say the advice I treat with the greatest caution is that from the tyre fitter, depot manager and their cat. So much of that is based on pure bull plus the actual availability/profit margins on a particular tyre.
David
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I'm having exactly the problem described at the minute.
I need to buy 4 185/55r15s, and I dont mind paying for the best because I consider tyres to be very important. That little bit of extra grip could be the difference between me being able to stop when 'kev' pulls out on me, or me being part of his nova's nice new bodykit.
Trouble is, the most expensive isnt necessarily the best performer. My experience of the Pirelli P6000 currently on the astra has been very good up till now.
Do the various speed ratings actually make all that much difference? Why do we need tyres rated to 150+mph?
Hopefully there will be a backroomer who has experience in the tyre industry who can shed a whole lotta light on this subject.
Cheers
Merry Chrimbo,
Mark.
btw, if you all remember I was getting some alloy wheels refurbished?
Well my dads mate managed to get them stripped and professionally painted for me. Cost? £0! I wont get them back till around the 7th because they want to keep them in their warm room for the paint to cure.
Bit of a case of 'it's not what you know it's who you know'.
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Mark
Yes, you do need the original speed rating tyres.
One. It could be an insurance problem if you have an accident and the insurance assessor spots that you have changed the specification of the car from the makers original design intention.
Two. The fact that you don't reach the maximum speed isn't the key issue - it is the potential to do it that's important. The speed rating of the tyres is there to cope with the power output, braking power, suspension design and handling capability of a car with that performance potential. Using the incorrrect speed rating tyres means that a critical component in the car's design has been changed, and that could compromise handling or braking, especially in an emergency situation.
Regards
John
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Interesting thread this.
I remember discussing with a ride and handling engineer over lunch one day the subject of tyre selection. You know one of those depressing conversations which partly revolve around what do engineers earn in your country? Well depressing for UK engineers at least.
Considering his job consisted of a considerable amount of time flogging round test tracks absolutely on the door handles what do you think depressed him most about it? Personally think I would have paid to do that. Anyway it was the fact that they ranked tyres in order as to the very best for the particular car, sometimes making very fine distinctions only for their top choice to be rejected in favour for one poor performer down in about 12 th place. Reason about 12 pence per tyre saved. Hmmmm
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Here's the fiasco I recently went through when I decided that my car needed new boots on the front.
Checked out www.tirerack.com and spent about an hour reading the tests and user reviews for the correct spec tyres.
(BTW. John S. is absolutely spot-on with his post above. Fitting tyres of a lower spec than original probably WILL invalidate your insurance. Or, at the very least, be considered a contributory factor in any accident).
I eventually ended up with a shortlist of about 4 or 5 tyres that got reasonable reviews from owners of the same model of car. It's worth noting here, that there were some conflicting stories where it was pretty obvious that someone was saying a particular tyre was very good simply because they didn't want admit that they'd bought bad ones.
I then emailed the members of an owners club back in Texas for their input. (It's an American car).
When all the comments had been received I plumped for Bridgestones.
Ringing round the local tyre dealers got the same reply every time. "Sorry, Bridgestone don't make that tyre in that size". So I called Bridgestone directly.
"Yes, we do make that tyre in that size but it's only available in the US."
"O.K. can I order a couple and have them shipped over?"
"Well, you could do that Sir but they would probably be confiscated by HM Customs here in the UK."
"Errr, why?"
"Well Sir, all tyres imported into Europe, unless already fitted to a vehicle, must have an 'E' stamped into the ident on the tyre to show that they comply with European standards. Our US tyres do not have the 'E' stamp."
My second choice were Goodyear Eagles which is what were fitted when new, but there were none in the UK and delivery would be 8 to 10 weeks.
So, I eventually got Avons fitted which are OK, they're better in the wet than the Goodyears but tend to understeer more on dry surfaces.
Take care....
PS. I didn't find an 'E' mark on the Avons either. Is this a true European regulation or was I being fed a line?
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My understanding is that tyres for use in the UK do not require an E mark[ask Micheldever Tyres] and US tyres will have a Federal mark which is acceptable and Japanese will have a jis mark again acceptable,but you must have a speed rating for your car.Have had this conversation many times with SVA inspectors.
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ps,i allways fit Khumo,great tyre,great price.
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Supply of new passenger car and light trailer tyres
4. Subject to Part III of these Regulations, no person shall supply any tyre (not being a retreaded or part-worn tyre) designed so as to be capable of being fitted to a wheel of a passenger car or light trailer unless the tyre is marked with an approval mark in accordance with the requirements of ECE Regulation 30, 30.01, 30.02 or 54 or of EC Directive 92/23.
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When I needed replacement tyres for my Civic I replaced two Bridgestones with Pirellis. After all,, well known brand, must be better than chinkychonks (whoops, thats racist) mustn't they? Was advised by Honda dealer that they would be long lasting. Didin't tell me that they would result in vastly increased road noise.
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Thank you all for your contrib's.
I ought to elaborate on what encouraged my note.
My older Vauxhall cars have 80's suspensions; realatively inefficient and crude. Poor torsional stiffness of the body exaggerates the suspensions mediocrity, inevitably resulting in the driver compensating with his foot!
The MB 200 K I own is a different animal, highly responsive to driver input and more sensitive re tyre choice. Initial indications are that tyre wear will be an issue, it being too easy to go round bends at greater speed without really knowing it.
I would very much like to see a set of numerical values against specific parameters - wear, noise, traction, fuel economy, water dispersion etc to be made available for all tyres to enable an initial comparison to be made. Each parameter could be measured on a rolling road testbed over a fixed time period, for example, wear and fuel economy values being measured on a "standard" rolling road surface having a known frictional value. Tread noise being measured in decibels etc.
The ignorance on which we base our expensive tyre selection and purchase at present, seems plain Neanderthal to me.
Regards,
Julian
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ChrisR, I did not quite follow your comments on specific tyres for cars with traction & stability control.Did you mean that they should be steel braced & of a specific size (for instance) to match up with the software?
Could you enlighten me please?
regards
simon
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