A relative works as a salesman in a Saab main dealers.
He has been told that due to FSA rules that came in force last Friday, he is not allowed to hand out a brochure without getting a name and address from the customer as the brochure mentions insurance/warranty details.
The amount of needless paperwork has also increased dramatically.
Also he was told that any deviation from FSA rules (inc the heinous crime of giving people a brochure), is gross misconduct which will lead to instant dismissal.
He has already lost 2 customers over the weekend due to this new rule.
He does appreciate that getting a name and address is good practice, but lots of customers on initial contact just want to gather info on possible cars and come back if they are interested.
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It is absolute madness but hopefully, when people go looking around and it becomes obvious no matter where they go they will need a brochure, it won't matter.
Hopefully...
--
Adam
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My own garage tells me that because of money laundering regulations (not quite the same thing, but related), if any customer pays more than £9,000 *in cash* for a car then he has to notify the authorities. Further, he is committing a criminal offence if he tells the customer of this.
Until they get the message (as Adski hopes will happen) prospective buyers will simply dismiss this brochure nonsense as more porkies by the motor trade.
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My own garage tells me that because of money laundering regulations (not quite the same thing, but related), if any customer pays more than £9,000 *in cash* for a car then he has to notify the authorities. Further, he is committing a criminal offence if he tells the customer of this.
A late friend of mine was a BMW salesman. He had a lot of customers who would come in with a bag of cash. One of them was a local fish and chip shop owner who my mate went to school with. Bought an M5 for cash out of a bag.
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I would have loved to have been there!
M5 Man: (whilst counting money) "and 5 pence makes £49,949"
Salesman: "Excuse me sir - you're a pound short."
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Adam
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Many a true word, Adam. A friend bought a cabin cruiser locally for something around £45,000. Before finishing the paperwork, the salesman asked if he needed anything else. My friend said that yes, he'd like a can of WD40. The salesman put it on the bill.
He had several boats, but never bought another one there.
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One of them was a local fish and chip shop owner who my mate went to school with. Bought an M5 for cash out of a bag.
Not a chip bag?
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"Not a chip bag?"
Wrapped in newspaper surely - or has H&S banned that?
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You can't use newspaper any more: it HAS been banned.
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It's not quite as bad as that. The trader has to notify NCIS (National Criminal Intelligence Service) only if he suspects that the "cash" (notes, coins or travellers' cheques, not ordinary bank cheques) comes from a dodgy source. If he does so it's iilegal to tell the customer (this is called tipping off).
What they all have to do if they accept cash for sales of 15,000 Euros or more is to register with HM Customs and Excise as a 'dealer in high-value goods'. No doubt they will carry out inspections.
The result will no doubt be that dealers decide not to take cash for sales of say £9,000 or above. As I often lecture on money laundering (prevention, you understand, not how to do it....), I'd be interested to know whether this would be a hardship for a typical used car dealer. I'd have thought not but am prepared to be corrected.
Badger, you garage might reasonably think that anyone paying such a large amount in notes is suspicious, which may be why he told you what he did.
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Sorry - my first message was meant to go under Badger's first. I wonder where this one wil end up...
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Look in threaded view and follow the black line backup towards Badgers reply.
You will see that you are actually the second reply to Badger, Aprilia was just before you. You will also see that there have been 2 replies to Aprilia so far, which in turn have 1 reply and two replies respectively.
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have bought several cars in cash
mind u usually with bank and dealer close to each other and big mate alongside me just in case
call me a cheapskate but i like the fact ive saved the 20 quid or whatever it is bankers draft fee
bought a few cars on switch too where the dealer take it, "whats the third letter of your mothers maiden name sir?", hardly the most original security to stop u driving away if it wasnt your card
tax man and me swap several letters a month, lets just say we negotiate a lot
dunno about customs and excise, maybe they have been informed by dealer
in my experience (new cars mind) dealer is very happy to take large amounts of cash
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"I'd be interested to know whether this would be a hardship for a typical used car dealer. "
I guess it wouldn't be a hardship, but the result may be that the hardworking drug dealer will now have to purchase his flash car through private sales. I assume that private sellers do not have to notify anyone if they accept large amounts of cash, however I imagine that not many will want to.
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What they all have to do if they accept cash for sales of 15,000 Euros
I wondered where the odd figure of £9,000 came from. That must account for it -- thanks.
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My understanding was that 'a dodgy source' is not actually sufficient to require a report. I thought that the requirement to report was that the purchaser of the goods knows or reasonably suspects that the cash is the proceeds of a crime.
So each time before I report I need to get inside the mind of the purchaser to consider their view.
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As someone who has been
under the control of the FSA since it's inception, I have seen more of my fair share of madness. This one however can not be laid at their door. Either the company sees this as a way of building up a database, have misunderstood the rules,(most easily done) or we have the famous "regulation creep" rearing it's ugly head again.
--
Alyn Beattie
I\'m sane, it\'s the rest of the world that\'s mad.
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Well, they could do future runs of the brochure with a seperate one for regulated info. They usually have the pricelist separate and colour/trims, so why not the warranty and finance info?
Also, I see many give the info. freely on their websites, so I wonder if it's a lie they tell to restrict the number of brochures, and get the details so they can hassle you to buy the car for weeks.
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I've got to go on a 4 day course next month to get FSA accreditation (not sure if i'm strictly legal in the interim!)
Without this accreditaion we're not allowed to sell anything such a GAP, paint protection or finance with payment protection as they contain an insurance content.
Also we're only allowed to take £5k cash in anyone transaction due to money laundering and then it needs three of us to take it to the bank.
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I am sure 5K is not that heavy....unless it was bought in by the chip shop owner.
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thats fridays takings then?
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Did he buy a good condition car....or a battered one?......groan
Anyone want to chip in with another joke?
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Wasnt uncommon for a person to buy a car with cash..Years ago..I worked for Ford at one point..Cash sale wasnt unusual..Specialy for RS 1600/RS 2000 Sierra.Cosworth..Annoying bit was being taken off your first job to accomodate. PDI on cash sale..PDI`s were not best of earners..Alarms were though
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Steve
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"Anyone want to chip in with another joke?"
blue haddock seems a likely candidate or even Cockle. I Cod do but this is not the Plaice, (and I'm not a Dab hand at Brill jokes) - it's Solely for motoring topics and I'm just a prawn in the game.
Right, I'm off for a cup of Char, halibut I'll be back later, I feel I'm floundering at the moment
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Lot of Bones in a Haddock..Smoked or otherwise
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Steve
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A new factor with the regulations is the strict enforcement of the correct A/C Payee name.
I regularly receive reasonably large cheques from abroad made out to me in my name by which everyone has known me in business for the last 40 odd years ie 'John Smith'.
Unfortunately all my accounts are registered at the bank by my initials and my first name is not the name I am known by -ie my account name is registered 'A. J. Smith'.
Despite the fact that I have been with these banks for years and my full name details are registered on their records they have said that they will refuse any further cheques made out in this way.
Utter madness....
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Our business bankers recently told us that they needed to re-confirm the identity data that they held in order to satisfy themselves that we were still who we said we were. They insisted on seeing two original forms of documentation such as utility bills, passports etc.
I noticed that they included bank statements on the list. So, to make the point, I drove* to the local bank and showed them:
(a) the same passport that they saw last time, it still being valid, and
(b) the bank statement that they themselves had issued to me in respect of my personal account.
Total additional information received = 0
Total number of rules complied with = 1
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*no points for guessing why I mention this!
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PayPal now put you through the money-laundering mill if your turnover through ebay exceeds £5,000 in any one year. All the proceeds are of course processed by multiple small payments from bank accounts to PayPal and then from Paypal to your bank account. Where the 'laundering' comes in beats me -- specially through car-boot tat on ebay at a fiver a throw.
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" PayPal now put you through the money-laundering mill"
I doubt it was their idea though.
Now, who do we know who might promote such silliness?
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No, of course it wasn't their idea. They've just had to comply, like everybody else.
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I had to provide new ID at my bank that also involved signing a document. I signed it in front of my bank manager, but it was rejected by the banks compliance officer as it was not similar enough to my old one.
The explanation from my bank manager was that if the signatures looked quite different in an audit, it could provoke a full scale audit at his branch. Something everyone was keen to avoid.
Still sounds completely ludicrous to me and also slightly annoying as I had kept at this branch to be loyal after moving and had to do a 48 mile round trip and take time off to complete this pointless task.
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Well today we've had to put some stickers in our windows saying we are FSA registered despite the fact that for about another month two thirds of the sale staff are not yet accredited!
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Frankly cash for big lumps is a pain! You have to count it - usually three times - and the bank charges you a whole lot to accept it.
On the other hand [in the good old days] :) if a punter walked into my showroom and said "I want to buy THAT used car - here's £XXXX grand in readies, I couldn't have cared less if he came out from under a stone: he bought it! No nonsense about his identity (not my business) tax or insurance (his business)
Contrast that with today, and the UK is just catching up with Spain in some respects. When we bought our brand new car here, (by cheque not cash), we had to produce proof of our identity, by passport or residencia and proof of our address, either by a copy of a long term house rental agreement or a copy of our escritura for owned property!
OTH, when we bought our apartment, finding that Spanish banks charge a fortune for Bank Drafts, and nothing for cash withdrawals, we paid the balance of the purchase price in Pesetas. We had to show the source of the funds though.
I'll not forget the notario's and vendor's faces when they saw the heap of cash they had to count!
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Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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Reported to me by a neighbour.
He went into his bank, slapped down his bank debit card on the counter and asked for 100 quid. The clerk asked for two pieces of identity.
"I've none with me, and the post office don't want that" he protested. "They just swipe the card and give me the money".
"It's the law" he was told.
He persisted. "You know me by name and recognise me. My account has been here for years".
"Sorry -- it's still the law".
"OK" he said, "until I retired six months ago I was the manager here and you know it -- I was your boss".
"It's the law" he was told. He went to the post office, got the cash in a couple of minutes and no questions asked nor any law invoked.
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Unless he was trying to prove a point (or I have missed the point) - why didn't he use an ATM?
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>Unless he was trying to prove a point (or I havemissed the point) - why didn't he use an ATM?
I don't know about you, but I feel safer withdrawing money when I have 4 walls around me, a real person counting it out twice in front of you, and time to carefully fold the money and return your card to your wallet. When using an atm, you type in your pin as quick as possible (usually ending up missing a digit cause you pressed the keys to fast) and then try and select the right ammount of money while looking behind you. Grab the cash, screw it up in your pocket and walk away as fast as you can>>
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...the post office don't want that"he protested. "They just swipe the card and give me the money"
Post offices require you to enter a PIN if you're making a withdrawal with just a card. See tinyurl.com/5xfx5 .
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>>Also we're only allowed to take £5k cash in anyone transaction due to money laundering and then it needs three of us to take it to the bank.
This is a typical example of regulation creep by businesses. Firstly nothing in the money laundering regulations prohibits you from receiving any amount in cash. Secondly the limit which then requires you to register and apply the rules is ?15,000 (about £10,500 at current exchange rates).
Whether you want to enter the money laundering regime at all is an issue, but I don't find that the rules actually get in the way at all.
As to three of you going to the bank I suspect that that has more to do with insurance than anything else.
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