Inspired by Patently's comment that he would be afraid of his classic car not starting made me wonder: what stops cars from starting properly.
My pennyworth: Bad design, bad maintenance, or an over-complicated design.
Bad design: There's no doubt that some older cars have weaknesses in their design that makes them poor starters. Design dumping water on the electrical bits. Points that drift & need resetting every 500 miles (does that fall into maintenance?)
Bad maintenance: old plugs; worn leads; cracked distributor caps; rusted rotors; pitted points, old battery. Failure to replace the timing belt.
Over complicated design: My theory is that modern cars are more likely to give you a spectacular failure than simpler, older cars. With the number of computers on board a modern car, it only takes a couple of them to stop talking to each other for disaster to strike.
Is it just paranoia that leads Patently to think that if he drives a 20 year old car that it is less likely to start. I suggest that a simpler car is more likely to get you home when something starts to go wrong, rather than just having an electronic paddy & giving up.
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I hark back to the days many years ago when the morning chorus of the birds was suplemented by the constant churning of car starter motors, with a harmony of owners curses.
I think of today where there is no morning chorus because all the birds have been killed by the fumes of all the cars that are stuck in jams having started perfectly that morning.
Now thats what I call progress.
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I think it is mostly down to maintenance. I have had old cars for years, and I have never had one that didn't start instantly on the button (really old ones did have buttons, not keys).
I have, at various times, owned cars dating back to 1947 (Triumph Roadster1800).
Currently my 1964 Triumph 2000 is in daily use, and it has never failed to start and run as reliably as any modern car. I have never, ever, got into one of my cars and wondered if it was going to start. If it is properly serviced a car will in my experience always start instantly.
I think the unreliability myth is put about by people who just don't like old cars.
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And quite right too, Mappers. If such a vehicle is a poor starter, but OK once it gets going, then there is rarely a single culprit. It's almost always a combination of small things. The plug gaps are a bit too wide, the points are a smidgeon out or are burned, the tappets are sloppy, the battery's getting past it. . . None of these factors would affect things in isolation, but in combination they can stop the car dead.
In short, it needs a good service, and it's usually winter that brings this home.
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I used to drive a 20 year old Mk1 Escort automatic as a daily use car. In 6 years I had only two problems...both relating to starting.
1. very sharp drop in temperature on a foggy day resulting in freezing fog. The choke butterfly valve in the carb froze in the shut position. (warm humid air in the air filter box condensed out then froze in tiny drops all over the butterfly valve). One screw driver to remove air filter cover and fixed.
2. a week or more at -5degC and below in snowy and icy conditions. Engine simply struggled to turn over. Started perfectly once stood in th sun for a while. I reckon the autofluid became viscous when so cold and I was turning the torque convertor and gearbox as well as the engine.
This car was extremely simple, the most complicated part was probably the auto-choke which never gave a problem.
Neither fault could realistically be termed bad design, or poor maintenance.
StarGazer
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I remember my father heating the spark plugs in the oven before putting them back in our first car, a 1947 Austin 8, a trick that worked more often than not.
Don't know why but the weather in the past always seemed far worst than it does these days; it's incredibly mild for the time of year around my way (on the Lancashire coastline).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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The only problem relating to starting my Escort was the choke 'mechanism'. I say mechanism because there are so many leavers and stops all moving in there that it's hard to tell which one actually pulls the choke shut! Anyhow lack of lubrication made one of these levers and spindles get a bit sticky so the choke was sticking shut when you pushed it in a bit, then suddenly opened up when you pushed it in far enough, stalling the engine. Three screws out of the air filter and smeers of oil from the can in the back and all was well.
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Interesting comments.
However does not tie in with my experience. Cars now start quote 'on the button'. Until the battery passes its sell-by date that is.
Thirty years or more ago the noise of almost brand new Anglias,Cortinas and Vivas gradually flattening their batteries was the winter dawn chorus in Edinburgh.
My own ,older, cars needed constant attention and replacement of the electrics to give them a fighting chance of starting.
My fathers Triumph 2000 was dodgy in cold weather with a tendency to ice up the Strombergs. Ah the delights of filling up the dashpots, centralising the needles, the grazed knuckles....
Seriously I'm sure a well maintained classic is a good starter.
--
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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I suspect that the design and technical sophistication of modern cars make them more likely to start without a problem.
However, if something goes wrong, the very same design and technical sophistication makes it far less likely that the driver can fix the problem without calling a garage/breakdown service.
On an older car, if I lift the bonnet, I know roughly which bits are which, and what lump of metal to whack when it misbehaves. On a modern car, I just about know where to put the oil and water.
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I recall, a few decades ago, the regular sight of neighbours bump-starting other neighbours cars as a matter of routine in the cold weather.
A game which used to last about half an hour as the 'team' progressed from one car to the next.
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Given the requirements for higher crash testing standards, greater protection for pedestrians, and more and more sophistication with power plants you will soon not have a bonnet to lift. The best you could hope for may be a small "fluids hatch" somewhere. Is this not the case with the A2 aready?
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My mini used to fail to start because some bright spark (!) put the distributor and leads immediately behind the grille. One night of damp weather and no start. Awful design work.
I think that people who hark back to the golden age when you could set the plug gap with a fag paper are kidding themselves. Many, many times as a kid, I helped people bump start cars; I can't remember the last time I saw it, but I live in the same type of area and relative standard of living that I used to.
As for limping back home; I see far fewer broken down cars by the motorway than I used to. If what's important is getting home, then far better a car that never breaks dwon in the first place than one that can limp home.
V
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Vin
My mini used to fail to start because some bright spark (!) put the distributor and leads immediately behind the grille. One night of damp weather and no start. Awful design work.
ISTR that back in the 60s and 70s almost all Minis had the obligatory aluminium foil covering half the radiator grill to stop water spray soaking the distributor. That and a can of wd40 on the dash shelf.
My wifes 1990 mini had the distributor raised slightly and under a cover....a slight improvement
StarGazer
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Some interestingly different experiences here.
I think most can be explained by:
a) a few inherently awful designs, like the mini electrics just behind the front grill.
b) people dividing into those who maintain their cars properly, and those who neglect them until they won't start.
c) newer cars either having less to maintain, or what there is is so complicated that people are forced to use proper garages. Neglected DIY isn't really an option anymore. Proper MOTs help to weed out the neglected cars too.
d) routine spares like batteries etc are now relatively much cheaper, like all manufactured items. In the past people tried to economise by using knackered batteries and push-starts.
In my student days I was often called in to fix friends' cars that wouldn't go properly. Invariably this was because they had never bothered to service anything. Once I had cleaned everything up and reset the tuning etc, they then ran perfectly.
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I remember once watching my dad repair something on the car (Ford Prefect, I think).
I asked him if he though it would start, and his reply was "It is impossible for it NOT to start". He went on to add that the engine had not choice in the matter, it had to obey the laws of science. If it wouldn't go, it was because he had made a mistake or something was broken or worn out.
Sums it up for me.
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Good philosophy.
Akin to when people moan "my computer has messed up!" No, it is doing what it's told - simply following commands (either those of the user or of a programmer).
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Or a virus-writer ... :-(
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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couldn't agree more with T S especially on older cars all you need is fuel a spark at the right time and enough power in the battery and it has to start ...cheers...keo
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Or possibly because the manufacturers are trying to make cars completely non user-serviceable, therefore forcing us to pay hundreds for servicing.
The other obvious indication of this is the fact that many fixings and fastenings on modern cars require perculiar tools. Just bought a 17mm hex-bit (???!!!!) for the hub bolt on my Passat. Helpfully, the GKN-branded CV boot kit contains a replacement hub bolt - one with a regular bolt head.
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Another RF story.
Cue to ACME car design centre. The Head designer stands up.
"OK Guys we are going to design a new car"
"For the ignition, we are going to use a tried and trusted technique. Let me lead you from the start to finish. We are going to use a device that is attached to the engine by a helical gear. It will have a cam on it with lobes, and a leaf spring switch attached to it that will carry a few amps."
"Boss! that will burn, wear out, and be suspect to damp"
"Shut up Higgins! This will have to be mechanically adjusted to compensate for speed, so will use a tube with vacuum from the engine and maybe suplement that with weights and springs."
"Boss are you mad?"
"Jones!!! you want to be on the naughty bench with Higgins? Now then the voltage from this device will go back to an oil filled coil where we will generate about 10,000 volts. We will take this high voltage on a long lead about 2 foot long back to the mechanical device that generated it in the first place. We will then connect this high voltage to a mechanical spinning device mounted on top. This spinning mechanical device spinning at 8000 revs will then spark its high voltage across to 4 contacts where another 4 two foot leads will take this high voltage to the plugs. All needs to be mechanically adjusted for timing and stay that way. - Comments?"
"Boss?"
"yes Higgins?"
"This high voltage needs to be carried about 4 foot, across 4 connections, jumped across a spinning gap 8000 times a second, in the cold and damp".
"We have here in our lab a small coil that fits directly on top of the spark plug so there is no long 4 foot path for high voltage. We just need to trigger it with a safe low voltage thats not suspect to damp problems from a small electronic device that can be influenced by as many environmental inputs as we want, all perfectly timed that wont wear out."
"Higgins?"
"Yes Boss"
"There is the door Higgins - use it"
Do you want to hear about his visit to the petrol input design team?
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>>We will then connect this high voltageto a mechanical spinning device mounted on top. This spinning mechanical device spinning at 8000 revs will then spark its high voltage across to 4 contacts where another 4 two foot leads will take this high voltage to the plugs. All needs to be mechanically adjusted for timing and stay that way. - Comments?"
Can I have two of them in the same box for me Stag?
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Higgins. You've got a choice.
1. A mechanical doll. She'll whirr round & round & round for you at 8,000 rpm. You'll be able to look at her, ad work out how her plumbing works. She's purely mechanical, you can put your arm around her rotor. If you're a stag, you can have two. Oh yes, and she's cheap. A new one will be #3.50. No special tools for replacement. Or,
2. A smouldering, coiled up pack. She'll look at you, balefully. And carry on looking at you. No indication as to what might be worng. There are no moving parts, so nothing to indicate what might be wrong. An ill tempered pack if ever I met one. and she's expensive. #150 or more. Plus you'll need to go and buy one of those 11mm anti-taper six pointed keys. And if she starts to play up, it's a lot of money to pay out on the offchance that it's that that's her problem
No choice, really, is there!
[With apologies to contributors of the fairer sex.]
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Or you can replace the original contacts with a Luminition kit. Set it up once, and it will then work for years and years and never need adjusting. Even on a Stag.
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1 mechanical doll - cheap? No she isnt. She is very expensive to engineer, make and fit. There is a reason that new cars are more affordable as years go by. Getting rid of mechanical dolls is one of them.
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Well I'm very late arriving in this thread but seeing as I inspired it I'd better add my thoughts.
I do think that MM has highlighted the main problems. But there is a further factor that he missed - the previous owners. Over the life of the car, the combination of its original design quality and and the treatment it undergoes thereafter produce the car now before you. If you have owned or cared for the car over its life, you know what that history is. An example is my 911; I intend to keep it for the long term so it is treated carefully and looked after.
If I buy a 20 year old car, I really have no idea how it has been treated. It may have been looked after by a petrolhead who knows what to do, or by someone such as the former colleague from whom I once inherited a car. It had done 60k and the maker recommended changing the cambelt at 50-55k, so I asked if this had been done. Answer: "What's the cambelt?". I got it changed pronto. The car had a fsh, but that didn't tell me the smaller details of daily care/abuse. The car died at 90k.
So my concern about buying a classic as a daily driver is not that I expect it not to start, but that I don't have the information I would need in order to know. That would be fine, were it not for the fact that from time to time I have to get up early, walk to the car on a frosty morning, and expect it to start NOW and drive a few hundred miles; on days like that I don't have time to spare bringing it to life, nor would there be a PT alternative.
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I take your point patently, but perhaps these are matters going beyond just poor starting.
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I've come to this thread late too - in fact I always come to them late as I look at this forum just before going to bed. Nice and relaxing after a long day!
I'm sure Cliff and Tom are right - a well-maintained old car, with fewer, or no, electronics to go wrong without warning, should always start and run - perhaps better than new with some modern replacement components.
The reason some of us remember neighbours' cars churning away on cold mornings is that not everyone did maintain their cars, and plugs, points and carburettors in particular went out of adjustment quickly. One advantage that much-maligned Mritish Leyland had over Ford, Vauxhall and Rootes was the excellent SU carburettor which was much less liable to flooding than the competition. Hot starting wasn't a problem either. You just had to keep the dashpot(s) topped up with lubricating oil and it would keep going for ages.
Cliff will know but I think Triumphs had something of similar design - was it a Stromberg? Many years ago we had an ancient Triumph 1300 as a second car. The starter motor made a noise like sound effects for an old-fashioned Hollywood film of the fall of Babylon, but it always started first time. We loved that car - one of the most comfortable cars we've ever had, and it never let us down.
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Strombergs, but SUs also fitted.
But my Triumph Roadster (1947) was a good starter with a Zenith, as is my Ferguson tractor (1949). I have a spare 89 Volvo with a Cisak, and that starts like a shot even after 2 months of standing.
It is all in the maintenace and correct adjustment.
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OK, impromptu poll here.
Who knows someone (first hand) who has suffered an ECU failure? I've heard loads of "A bloke I heard of had to pay 3 squillion pounds for his" stories but I do not directly know a single person who has suffered this fate. Not one. The nearest I have is one chap who had a coil fail on a VW Golf.
V
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Never. Sensors fail, like temperature senders, air mass meters, oxygen sensors, fuel pump relays, crank position sensors, fuses.
But IME virtually all modern car running faults have been down to poor electrical connections and failure to keep intakes and throttle bodies clean. Basic maintenance, again.
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Who knows someone (first hand) who has suffered an ECU failure? I do not directly know a single person who has suffered this fate.
A colleague of mine. The ecu failed in his old Vaux Carlton estate way back in 1991. Car was approx 3 or 4yrs old, IIRC.
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Lady Stripey's elderly cousin has just had to shell out £1100 for an ECU replacement on his H-reg Cavalier (or maybe a Vectra - not sure).
What puzzles me is why the hell an ECU is so expensive. It's only a dedicate computer, and replacing it must be something akin to replacing a motherboard and processorat most. It usn't a matter of production volumes -- ECUs are churned out in enormous numbers, yet at the moment I can buy a couple of good PCs, infinitely more complex and with a monitor, or several motherboards, for the price of an ECU.
Methinks there's (another) rip-off here somewhere.
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ECUs are expensive bought as parts due to handling and the need for the manufacturer (of the ECU) to make some profit.. he makes littl on the OEM sale.
The only car@ I have had problems starting was older son's Peugeot 1.1 106 (1998 R) . After reading here I cahnged the immibilser coil. 100% success. Minis, A30s, Rovers Riley 16s, Riley 9 - all my old cars started no problem. I always religiously serviced the ignition system.. plus points etc.
@ I lie : SWBO's 106 diesel needed new glow plugs. I replaced ony 2 with halfords ones: no problems in six years since.
Can't say I was impressed with a company Montego where watre dripped along the HT lead into the ECU and ruined it. BL design!
madf
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Just realised I've already had this argument and eventually showed that ECUs are actually pretty cheap.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=21763&...e
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> Who knows someone (first hand) who has suffered an ECU failure?
A few years ago I sold a 6 year old Audi Coupe. The car had a full service history and never gave a moments trouble during my 3 years of ownership. The day after I sold it, the buyer called to ask if I knew what was wrong with the car. It turned out that the ECU had failed (I sent him to Wheelbase to diagnose problem so knew he wasn't trying it on). He then had to fork out over £1,000 to fix it but fully accepted that the car was "sold as seen" and that the failure was completely unpredictable and therefore his liability. He wished he'd bought the car 2 days later, I'm glad he didn't.
I thought there would be some aggro over the problem, but the guy was a gentleman. So, yes, I have first hand experience of an ECU failing at 6 years and 70k miles.
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Mostly it's the same then as now.
Car starts, battery up to snuff.
Otherwise, battery not up to snuff.
Mark you, going back beyond the infants on here, given a starting handle and a magneto and not flooding the carbs one could get away with no battery!
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A good example of classic reliability this morning:
My wife got the Volvo stuck in mud going down the drive, so I had to start up the old Fergie tractor to pull her out. I hadn't used it for about 2 months, but it started, as always, on the button.
But then, why shouldn't it? It's got compression, petrol and spark, so of course it starts.
And a good battery of course. 10 years old, kept charged up with nothing more than the original 55 year old generator.
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I had an ecu fail on a Renault 25GTX (the one that used to speak to you) whilst driving up High Street Kensington in rush hour. I've never laughed so much as I singlehandly brought the traffic to a standstill!
It was a company car and only 18 months old at the time.
--
\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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I generally agree with the sentiment of these posts, ie bad maintenance etc.
I pride myself in looking after my cars over the years, however I once had an old Ford Cortina MK1 1500 with the dreaded downdraught carb fitted as standard.
This is one car that no matter what I checked, maintained or replaced would not start on frosty mornings, even with a new engine fitted !
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