Speeding (mostly excl cameras) XVII | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Fri 28 May 2004 11:24

Speeding (mostly excl cameras) XVII - Dynamic Dave

Thread closed. Please see vol XVIII for further discussions.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=23197

Speeding (mostly excl cameras) XVI is closed and this thread has been started.

For the continued discussions around the subject of speeding, usually excluding cameras which are in another thread.

Older versions will not be deleted, so there is no need to repost any old stuff.

A list of previous volumes can be found here:-
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=18848

DD,
BackRoom Moderator

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Fri 28 May 2004 00:34

Think!! Slow Down! - Adam {P}

It\'s late, I\'m bored and thought I\'d post this.

This is an interesting one. I was watching the TV before and that advert came on where the Nissan Sunny careers into that kid and it says \"If this car were travelling at 30mph, it would have stopped....here\"

Anyway, I can\'t say I\'d ever paid much attention to it but I noticed that the car was coming out of a thirty limit so the loweest limit it could be in would be a 40. We\'re told the car is travelling at 35. But that\'s 35 in (at least) a 40mph. Is that message on purpose or just accidental?

There is another suggestion - I\'m the most boring person on the universe to have picked up on it - not least to post a thread on it at 25 to midnight!!

Adam

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Fri 28 May 2004 00:45

Think!! Slow Down! - Imagos

Have you noticed that the car is travelling at a constant speed with the tyres locked up and smoking. Does not appear to be slowing down at all as if it\'s being pushed or dragged for the camera. Highly unlikely that the tyre would not smoke like that too.
--
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ah! women my only weakness...

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Fri 28 May 2004 00:47

Think!! Slow Down! - Adam {P}

Alright alright - I got rid of the signature didn\'t I?

:-)

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Fri 28 May 2004 00:48

Think!! Slow Down! - Imagos

so have i...

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Fri 28 May 2004 00:58

Think!! Slow Down! - Robin Reliant

As HJ pointed out when the ad first appeared last year, if you look at the rear wheels of the car they are still revolving. So perhaps if the back brakes hadn\'t been disconnected the car would have stopped in time anyway.

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Fri 28 May 2004 09:26

Think!! Slow Down! - Garethj

The back brakes of any non-abs car don't lock up becuase there's a pressure limiting valve in there! If rear brakes did lock up we'd have fewer head on crashes but more broken rear bumpers as the car would tend to spin. No trickery for that part of the fiming.

Gareth

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Fri 28 May 2004 10:19

Think!! Slow Down! - Sooty Tailpipes

I have to agree, that the physics model used in that advert seems to be a different one to here on Earth. There would appear to be no braking on the rear wheels, the suspension dive looks to small, especially for an old simple car, and the retardation of speed you get usually increases exponentially with a reduction of speed.

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Fri 28 May 2004 11:20

Think!! Slow Down! - tunacat

Haven't we done this one before?

The detail of the Sunny's braking characteristics isn't really the point of the advert. The car may indeed have been doctored to achieve the desired appearance, but I've locked up the fronts (alone) on several cars and the Sunny's depiction looks like a fair representation of how they felt to behave. I didn't have someone outside filming me in slow motion, mind.

IIRC, Porsche 911s are known for having amongst the best brakes. In the interest of safety then, why don't all new cars have brakes as effective as a 911's ?

Obviously a supermini's weight and size won't really take to having very weighty big brake discs and wheels and tyres, but does someone know:
For a given stretch of tarmac, (large) pedal force, and without Brake Assist, if cars are given commensurately-sized wheels, tyres and brakes and all have correctly-operating ABS systems, shouldn't their *braking* distances from a given speed be identical? And if not, why aren't the manufacturers doing something about it?

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Fri 28 May 2004 13:07

Think!! Slow Down! - NARU

From this week's Motorcycle news ...

Car and van drivers are the greatest offenders when it comes to breaking the speed limit on 30mph roads ? the very roads which carry greatest risk ? according to figures released by the Department for Transport.

The Government show the speeds at which motorists choose to drive in free-flow conditions. 58 per cent of car drivers broke 30mph limits, 59 per cent of van drivers did likewise. The figure for riders and articulated lorry drivers were lower ? at around 54 per cent for each.

But we can?t start pointing the finger just yet? on 40mph roads only 10 per cent of car drivers exceeded 45mph while 19 per cent of riders did.

On dual carriageway with 60mph limits car drivers and riders come out even with 50 per cent exceeding our 70mph limits. But a massive 87 per cent of lorry drivers drove faster than their 50 mph limit.

Overall, the DfR says: " The latest figures show that the proportion of motorists exceeding the speed limit in 2003 hardly changed from 2002 although driving in excess of the speed limit remains at a high level on all types of road. "

We guess that must mean speed cameras have made no difference to driver behaviour, despite the huge amount of tickets issued. Maybe it?s time for the Government to think a little more creatively?

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Fri 28 May 2004 13:55

Think!! Slow Down! - patently

IIRC, Porsche 911s are known for having amongst the best brakes.

In the interest of safety then, why don't all new

cars have brakes as effective as a 911's ?

Can't speak for other performance cars, but yes, the 911's brakes are eyewatering. Literally. I have managed to extract a CD from a autochanger cartridge that was sitting on the floor, using the brakes alone.

They also look fantastic in red, but that's another thread entirely....

Sadly, you get what you pay for, which is probably why others don't have similar brakes.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 15:25

speeding fines - barney100

Speeding fines are by their nature unfair. To some people even a small fine can be a financial disaster but to others only a small nuisance. I think a system that punishes rich and poor alike is needed: surely the threat of the loss of your licence is punishment enough.

Wheeeeee! Off to the speeding thread. :o)

No Dosh
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 15:46

speeding fines - Adam {P}

>>I think a system that punishes rich and poor alike is needed<<

We do; they're called points....not that I agree with them of course.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 18:42

speeding fines - patently

It's a fair point. However, the points do shift the system in that direction - the rich tend to have posher cars, higher insurance premiums, and hence get stung if they receive points.

Of course, the effect of 12 points is the same, rich or poor.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 19:32

speeding fines - Armitage Shanks{P}

Years ago a scheme was tried which related fines to income. For some reason it didn't work and was dropped although I would have thought that, broadly speaking, it was a good idea.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 19:40

speeding fines - frostbite

For some reason it didn't work and was dropped

Probably infringed someone's 'human rights' !

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 19:57

speeding fines - Mark (RLBS)

I think the issue with means tested fines is centered around what the punishment is supposed to be.

In a ridiculous position you could have a very poor man paying £0.50p for Drink/Driving and a very rich man paying £1000.00 for speeding.

If the punishment is supposed to fit the crime, then how does that balance with the above.

Equally, how much would you fine me if I am theoretically very poor but my wife is a multi-millionaire ? And would the fine differ depending on who was driving the car or on who owned the car ?

How much would you have to fine a Bill Gates before it hurt as much as it hurt a low income family ?

You would think that points would be the equaliser; but even then the poor man will lose his transport whereas the rich man will pay the resultant stupidly high insurance costs, or indeed the costs of a driver, and retain mobility.

Frankly, I don't know how a more equitable solution could be made to work. It will always deal with differing levels of hardship.

I suspect that the only way would be a greater degree of granularity and discretion in the points system.

e.g. you need 200 points to lose our licence rather than the current 12, yet a speeding earns you anywhere from 10 - 80.

This would allow the courts to punish much more according to circumstances and much less according to specific rules. I think speeding is 3 - 6 points ? Assuming so, I am quite sure that there are more than 4 different levels of speeding or degrees of behaviour than that - especially given that they are forced into standard points awards anyway.

M.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 21:05

speeding fines - NowWheels

It seems to me that the current points system was broadly fair, but has become less so with changed circumstances.

Some speeding twenty years ago would be caught only if a police officer had gone out to set up a speed trap ... but the rest of the time the speedster would not be caught. So the penalty included a deterrent element, based on the assumption that anyone caught may well have been been regularly speeding in the same place.

With speeeeed cameras, particularly now that they are clearly marked, that uncertainty is gone. Speed past a camera, and you will be caught, ata ny hour of the day or night. Speed apst it ten times in ten days, and you'll be caught ten times ... whereas before the camera, you might only have been caught once.

So, logically, there should be difft penalties for being caught by a fixed camera v being caught by any other means.

Instead of a flat 3 points, how about two points if caught by a fixed camera, and four if caught by other means?

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 21:23

speeding fines - teabelly

Speed cameras aren't absolutes either. Some aren't operational, others are but have no film. There are plenty of problems with them misreading people's speed and also with identifying who was actually driving at the time so they're not guaranteed to get you every time you go passed them over the prevailing limit.

Personally I think the penalties should vary with the conditions at the time of the offence eg speed 5 mph above the limit around a school in pouring rain at chucking out time and get 10 points. Speed on a motorway or A road up to 20 mph over the limit in clear and bright conditions, where there are no junctions or slip roads and get 1 point, or even just a £60 ticket. Speeding tickets need to relate to danger caused and not just whether it is 5 or 10 mph over. Speed cameras just don't allow for this eventuality. Bring back the traffic police and start catching the really dangerous drivers.
teabelly

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 21:41

speeding fines - NowWheels

they're not guaranteed to get you every time

you go passed them over the prevailing limit.

oh well, scrub that idea!

Personally I think the penalties should vary with the conditions at

the time of the offence

A limit is a limit. It doesn't help to encourage the idea that drivers can choose when to exceed the limit, so there needs to be a fixed minumum as well as whatever extra penalty applies generally for inappropriate speed for condition.

Bring back the traffic police and start catching the

really dangerous drivers.

I agree abt more trafic police ... they have a role to play too. But traffic police needn't replace cameras any more than cameras should replace police. Cameras are self-funding, and should be used alongside police: with cameras catching speedsters, more police time could be applied to other forms of bad driving.

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 22:28

speeding fines - teabelly

Why doesn't it help to give drivers responsibility? If you take away the thought to exceed a limit when it is safe you also take away the thought to reduce speed when necessary. All you are going to get a people driving along at exactly the speed limit, in all conditions regardless of whether it is safe to do or not. The roads are getting like that now. I am tired of seeing these numpties driving at dead on 30mph in snow and ice because they think just because they're driving at the speed limit they're safe. They are far more dangerous than those that are driving in the snow at 25 mph and would be driving the same road in the dry at 35mph for example. Speed has to be matched to conditions. What the sign by the road says is a secondary consideration in some respects and is really only guidance for those that need it. Most good drivers don't need to see a single speed limit sign to drive safely, or even have a working speedo.

Why bother putting all these resources into catching speeders when excess speed is only responsible for around 5% of all accidents?
teabelly

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 00:22

speeding fines - NowWheels

Why doesn't it help to give drivers responsibility?

Drivers have lots of responsibilities, one of which to drive at a safe speed, and another of which is to stay within the limit regardless.

Drivers have lots of responsibilities, none are being taken away. All that's happening is that technology has allowed one of those responsibilities to be policed at zero overall cost to the taxpayer.

Drivers can understand that you never go through a red traffic light, and you go through a green light only when it's safe to do so. If we followed your logic, we'd abolish red trafic lights or make it optional to observe them!

Why bother putting all these resources into catching speeders when excess

speed is only responsible for around 5% of all accidents?

No extra public funds required: the cameras are self-financing.

Dunno where that 5% figure comes from: TRL says "Misunderstandings in the press appear to have resulted
in two ways. First, speed identified as a separate factor
in its own right was present in 15% of accidents, not
the 7.3%, or lower figures, that are often wrongly
quoted. Secondly, the 15% is only one part of the total
effect of speed on accidents."
...
"Many ? before and after? studies of measures which
slow traffic and result in substantially fewer accidents
have also been reported. These measures include, for
example, traffic calming schemes in 20mph zones ?
where injury accidents were more than halved"
www.trl.co.uk/pdf/TRLNews_sep02.pdf

Apart from reducing the number of accidents, there are many other reasons for limiting speed. See for example the excellent DfT publication at www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/docume...f

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 09:07

speeding fines - teabelly

The 5% figure (or thereabouts) comes from Avon & Somerset accident statistics. Durham also gives that figure. The latest government report gives a figure of 12% but I think that includes excess speed and inappropriate speed (too fast but within the limit). Also the excess speed accident statistics don't mention whether these were a result of joyriders and other criminals getting away from plod.

The reduction in accidents in 20mph areas. Is this because people were choosing alternative routes so there was a lot less traffic?

My logic only applies to speed limits as exceeding them is perfectly safe in the approprate places. Going through a red light is something I would not consider doing as it is nearly always a dangerous thing to do. Most traffic police would agree with me and allow latitude with someone that was otherwise driving safely and only exceeding the limits by small margins (within ACPO guidelines).

teabelly

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Tue 1 Jun 2004 23:16

speeding fines - patently

A limit is a limit. It doesn't help to encourage the

idea that drivers can choose when to exceed the limit, so

there needs to be a fixed minumum as well as

whatever extra penalty applies generally for inappropriate speed for condition.

Yes - a limit is a limit, exceed it and you break the law whatever the circumstances. But it is long established that the punishment is matched to the severity of the offence.

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 00:32

speeding fines - NowWheels

Yes - a limit is a limit, exceed it and you

break the law whatever the circumstances.

Glad we found something to agree on! There's a few folks here who want the limits to be optional :(

But it is long

established that the punishment is matched to the severity of the

offence.

But the punishment is related to severity of offence: do 70mph in a 30 and you'll get a much stiffer punishment. The argument being advanced was for a big reduction in the minimum punishment, which would only make sense if you regard speeding as a very minor issue. Transport resrachers disagree: the effects of doing 35 in a 30mph zone are not trivial, and that seems to be the lowest level at which it is practical to prosecute

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 09:23

speeding fines - patently

I think that was the original point. The distinction that was drawn was between 35 in a 30 past a school which should be punished more severely than 90 on a 70-limit motorway on a clear day, no rain/snow/fog etc.

So we're all in agreement, then! Big smile everyone! :-D

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 10:56

speeding fines - OldPeculiar

My thought on fair punishment would be to replace fines with community service - a persons free time is worth the same to them regardless of being rich or poor.

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Wed 2 Jun 2004 12:15

speeding fines - NowWheels

replace fines with community service

so how much community service to replace a £60 fine?

If it was set at (say) ten hours, I can imagine some folks saying ouch!

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Mon 14 Jun 2004 19:57

speeding fines - budu

Re "clearly marked", the temporary type mounted on 3 foot tripods are not marked and are indeed partially hidden. They don't even seems to flash.

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Tue 15 Jun 2004 14:06

speeding fines - budu

"With speeeeed cameras, particularly now that they are clearly marked..." What about temporary cameras, the type that stand on three-foot tripods? There are no warnings, no road markings and those I have seen have been unmanned. It seems there is no flash either, so I presume they are radar devices?

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:13

Have I just got myself a ticket? - 20w50

HI
I am after a bit of advice on this one.
Near where I live there is one of these boards that flashes up '40' when a driver is going to fast.
Ive driven past this every other day for ages and tonight i did and it flashed up yet on my speedo I was doing 40. Have I earnt myself 3 points here or are they normally jsut a warning?
help please

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:16

Have I just got myself a ticket? - Adam {P}

I would hazard a guess that it's just a warning. What would be the point of warning you you had got a ticket?

Hope that puts your mind at ease. Out of interest, what did it flash your speed us as?

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:17

Have I just got myself a ticket? - frostbite

99.9% guaranteed to be a warning.

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:18

Have I just got myself a ticket? - runboy

Not unles there is a Gatso or suchlike near by. Generally these signs are a warning only.

I do wonder to their accuracy-a few times I have been 'flashed' when I was doing near the limit. I suspect atmospherics come into it and maybe the detector is spooked somehow.

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:27

Have I just got myself a ticket? - 20w50

thanks that helps a lot
I drove back upi afterwards parked and walked ocver to take a look, there seems to be no camera tho there is a box on the top, similar to the boxes on trafic lights which i presume to be a sensor?
As for what speed did it say, its one of these that jsut flash upi what the speed limit is - 40 which is what i thougth i was doing

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 23:07

Have I just got myself a ticket? - SteveH42

I do wonder to their accuracy-a few times I have been

'flashed' when I was doing near the limit.

Two of the ones that have appeared on the A6 south of Stockport recently appear to be set to flash at about 23mph.... That sensitive and people soon start ignoring them IMO.

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:27

Have I just got myself a ticket? - Chicken Madras

I'm sure you'll be ok. I drive from Peterborough to Thetford at least once a week down the back roads and several villages along the route (I have a phobia about the A14!) have similar signs. There are no Gatsos around. I feel it's better to let people know that they've let their speed increase too much and let them do something about it, instead of "flash" and bish-bosh, £60 and three points.

All the best,
CM (a friend of the Scameras in the roadworks on the A43 - 3 points 6.30pm 2nd Feb 2002)

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Sun 6 Jun 2004 22:29

Have I just got myself a ticket? - Dynamic Dave

This'll get moved to one of the speeding threads shortly.

DD.

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Mon 7 Jun 2004 23:10

Adhering to the speed limit - doctorchris

OK, so a year ago I picked up 3 points for doing 56mph in a 50mph motorway roadworks zone. Now the fine and points did not annoy as much as the increased insurance premium. Now up to this point I probably adhered to the speed limits as well if not better than average, but have realised that my ability to judge when and when not to speed is severely impaired.
From then on I have decided to stick to the speed limits as rigidly as is possible. What a nightmare! doing 30mph through the city (Sunderland) where I live, cars constantly inches from my bumper. 70mph on the motorway, the HGV's overtake me. Hit a traffic calming 40mph zone in the middle of a 60mph road, that BMW behind takes all kinds of risks to pass.
So how come these guys do not pick up the points on their licences? Is there a course where I can learn when I can get away with speeding? Help me guys!

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Mon 7 Jun 2004 23:13

Adhering to the speed limit - Morris Ox

Course? How about an Institute of Advanced Motorists course? There, they'd teach you all kinds of tricks that seem to make life on the road run more smoothly...like driving at 30mph in a 30mph zone, observing temnporary speed limits, not getting wound up by bumper-huggers.

You don't need a course, doc, you're doing the right thing.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 09:50

Adhering to the speed limit - volvoman

Agree with MO and sympathise as I too try very hard not to let the behaviour of other drivers affect mine. It is difficult sometimes but I've found over time that it gets easier. On the M2 last week I was tailgated in the most horrendous rain despite being in the inside lane and doing 50mph (as instructed by matrix warning signs reporting a major accident at jcn. 4.
I would say the majority of drivers totally ignored the lower limit, many didn't even turn their lights on and the behaviour of some was quite frankly appalling and highly dangerous.
I take the point about other drivers almost 'forcing' you to drive faster than you'd choose. However I've decided I'll not be wound up by these idiots so I make it as easy as possible for them to get as far away from me as possible. Far from getting wound up, I actually get great satisfaction from avoiding them. As for why they do it - well they're obviously stupid so maybe they have just been lucky. In any event, let them take care of themselves. They'll get the points sooner or later.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 13:47

Adhering to the speed limit - pdc {P}

dr chris. think of it this way. the car behind may be only inches from your bumper, but if you are going at the limit or lower, and have left a decent space between you and the car infront, at least you can brake less harshly and allow the muppet behind time to react. If s/he was tailgating at 70, and you were only feet behind the car infront you would be in greater danger.

This goes out of the window of course if a child or something runs out infront of you.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 13:48

Adhering to the speed limit - pdc {P}

In fact, I've been thinking of making a sticker for the back window for quite sometime saying "the closer you get, the slower I will go"

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 14:09

Adhering to the speed limit - just a bloke

In fact, I've been thinking of making a sticker for the

back window for quite sometime saying "the closer you get, the

slower I will go"

I'd buy one of those......

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 14:11

Adhering to the speed limit - DavidHM

If Morrissey is driving behind, would he respond "The more you ignore me, the closer I get?"

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 14:16

Adhering to the speed limit - spinner

If Morrissey is driving behind, would he respond "The more you

ignore me, the closer I get?"

..."you're wasting your time"

:-}

Indeed the best reaction to tailgaters - apart from making sure there is a safe braking distance - is no reaction.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 14:13

Adhering to the speed limit - stokie

Keep it up doc.

I've found the stress from being tail-gated has diminished over the 9 months since I passed my IAM.

Red mist, V-Signs etc don't help. You're educating them well by example.

Stokie

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 14:25

Adhering to the speed limit - pdc {P}

i no longer rise to tailgaiters or people trying to bully me into speeding up either. I used to speed up, but now I just keep the speed steady, let them get stressed, and pull over into another lane if on the motorway when the opportunity arises.

I know my car is capable of 136mph but i don't feel the need to prove it to the idiot behind anymore.

pdc
ex-stokie ;-)

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 16:18

Adhering to the speed limit - just a bloke

altho' I don't enjoy being tailgated it does make me smile when I see them behind me getting wound up, as I back off even more from the guy in front of me to compensate for the idiot behind.

I know I'm bad :-( Sorry.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 17:36

Adhering to the speed limit - OldPeculiar

Isn't slowing down etc. just as bad as speeding up in order to get someone off your bumper? If I'm honest I do sometimes speed up in order to increase the space between myself and the car behind and try to drive in such a way so as not to aggrivate said person.

There seems to be a feeling of 'the person behind is in the wrong if they hit me it's their fault' Trouble is if someones that aggresive behind they wheel they may be just as aggresive away from it as well.

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 17:58

Adhering to the speed limit - just a bloke

Isn't slowing down etc. just as bad as speeding up in

order to get someone off your bumper? If I'm honest I

do sometimes speed up in order to increase the space between

myself and the car behind and try to drive in such

a way so as not to aggrivate said person.

There seems to be a feeling of 'the person behind is

in the wrong if they hit me it's their fault' Trouble

is if someones that aggresive behind they wheel they may be

just as aggresive away from it as well.

Well TBF if I can I do move out of their way, I'd rather they were in front of me where I can keep and eye on them, but if I can't move over then I'll make as much room between me and the car in front as I can, this usually means backing off. I would never close the gap between me and the car in front which is what speeding will do.

I never concern myself with what happens if we are both out our cars...

JaB

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 18:12

Adhering to the speed limit - stokie

If they're the gesticulating nutter type I sometimes go all the way round a roundabout to shake them off

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 18:16

Adhering to the speed limit - just a bloke

If they're the gesticulating nutter type I sometimes go all the

way round a roundabout to shake them off

A bit difficult on the M25 tho' :-)

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Tue 8 Jun 2004 18:22

Adhering to the speed limit - OldPeculiar

Hmm, I've had to do that on a roundabout before.

May I assume JaB that as your not concearned about what happens when your both out of your cars that Jab actually means 'Judo and Boxing'? ;)

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 00:44

Adhering to the speed limit - Richard Turpin

I never get upset with people hogging the outside lane for no reason. I just undertake them safely. They often flash their lights at me afterwards. I have not yet worked out the purpose in this. Perhaps they are just testing their lights. That's what I assume anyway.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:04

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

I know....another speed tread..but I can't find any info about this anywhere else.

Last night at 1am on the M40 I was caught twice (stupid I know) in the roadworks temporary cameras. The first case was when I was following a lorry into the roadworks (road otherwise empty) both of us travelling at 50, in order to improve my visibility I pulled out overtook and pulled back in again - unfortunately crusing up to 65-70 in the process. As I pulled in FLASH FLASH! opps. The second was travelling a mile further down with a gaggle of cars at 50-55...al of a sudden FLASH FLASH - I guess I was the unlucky 10th of an mph over!

My question is I guess I am expecting 6 points and two fines, but what have other people had...any previous experiences...is it worth appealling - i'm fairly convinced that a patrol car following me for the whole way down the strech of raod would not have stopped me...?

Help...a depressed mini owner

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:06

temporary speed restrictions - Mapmaker

Whilst you'll get some sympathy here (from me too), appealing against what, exactly?

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:25

temporary speed restrictions - Sooty Tailpipes

What a shame you didn't have no tax insurance or license, and then killed a pedestrian, or you would have only had to pay £84 as we have seen this week.

Well, you were caught red handed, all you can do, is hope the cameras were just flashes, or the fim had run out. I have found many roadwork Gatsos to be fake, there were about 6 between Lincold and Newark on the A46 when that was made a dual carriageway a couple of years ago....they were mounted on a metal cross on the floor.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:26

temporary speed restrictions - spinner

You might be lucky and got flashed and there was no film in the machine.

Then again you might not.

It's not worth appealing, unless you fancy getting a heavy book thrown at you by a magistrate for wasting court time.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:33

temporary speed restrictions - BrianW

If you want improved visibilty then drop back an extra 50 yards.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:35

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

or pass it at 55 mph instead of 70. won't take much longer.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:36

temporary speed restrictions - Altea Ego

Whereabouts are the roadworks and the cameras?

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 14:48

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

The cameras are in the roadworks 40 miles west of oxford on the M40 - warwick(ish).
I would agree I was overzealous with the acceleration around the lorry (and will have to take it on the chin) but I guess the point is really; how appropriate is the speed restriction on a three lane stretch of motorway (the cones were tucked into the hard shoulder) at 1 in the morning with no workmen or roadworking lorries/equipment in the area? The road was essentially clear of other traffic on a clear night...I didn't exceed the national limit. I guess I would be appealing that the restriction was...at that time...wholly inappropriate and the eventual cost vastly exceeds the crime...

Thoughts?

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 15:05

temporary speed restrictions - robZilla

Thoughts?

Academic.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 15:11

temporary speed restrictions - Altea Ego

"I guess I would be appealing that the restriction was...at that time...wholly inappropriate and the eventual cost vastly exceeds the crime..."

No valid grounds for an apeal. Unless it wasnt you, or you were under the speed limit you have no grounds for an apeal. To make you feel better there is this thought

Temporary Gatso's use film. Not much film. Busy road, lots of snaps, empty Gatso. Unless, they used the quiet time at midnight to fill it up.

Wait and see. you may get 2, 1, or no NIPS in the post, not much you can do till then.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 15:14

temporary speed restrictions - Sooty Tailpipes

Go back with a camera, and check the signs are to the regulations, and have not fallen/blown over.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 15:22

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

Thanks all of you,

Not really a crumb of comfort, I guess I am just chastened, which is exactly the intent of all of these blooming things.

Just for the record, the only reason that I thought it would be appropriate to vary the speed limit through that point was because the limit signs were only on the digital screens in the middle of the road and could have been changing in periods when there were no workmen and little or no traffic...I'm sure we have the technology - it is just ignored as a dark night with gatsos hidden in trees and shubs is an ideal revenue generator!

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 15:55

temporary speed restrictions - Myles

Just for the record, the only reason that I thought it

would be appropriate to vary the speed limit through that point

was because the limit signs were only on the digital screens

in the middle of the road

Do you mean the matrix signs on the central reservation that don't have a red circle around the number? If so, and there were no other signs indicating the speed limit, then the national limit would apply.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 16:07

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

Yep, from memory the only warning signs at that point were the matrix signs in the central reservations (just a 50 in a circle in yellow/orangeish lights). But don't get my hopes up!

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 16:42

temporary speed restrictions - OldPeculiar

half way to a driving ban - not bad for a nights work! (TIC)

This to me sounds like one of those examples of poor use of cameras that do more harm than good (by affecting the attiude of drivers in a negative fashon) Not that that helps at all!:(

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 17:00

temporary speed restrictions - Dwight Van Driver

You really haven't any grounds for appeal M.

You may be lucky and camera out of film from over use which sometimes happens at roadworks.

However watch your post and check whether NOIPs land through letter box by last post before day 14 from midnight of day of offence and that it is other than second class post. Second class post not accepted. Preseve evidence. Outside this time, unless you are not the RK of the vehicle you may have grounds to challenge the service of the NOIP. If nothing received in 3 weeks pick 6 on the lottery you are a lucky man.

Further,if you get two, you can try writing back pointing out a continuing offence on single set of roadworks and that you will hold your hand up to one. May work, but if they say no then opt for 120 notes and the six points. Worked for someone I know who reads this Forum, or did, but he did have a bit of contention to bargain with.

DVD

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 17:04

temporary speed restrictions - BrianW

Further,if you get two, you can try writing back pointing out a continuing offence on single set of roadworks and that you will hold your hand up to one.

Checked this out with a Magistrate a few months back: two sets of flashes = two offences.

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 17:13

temporary speed restrictions - Dwight Van Driver

Yup that is right, but nothing ventured nothing gained and it might reach an adjudicator with a heart made of the real stuff and not stone.....

Would only have been one offence of a follow ?

DVD

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 17:26

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

Thanks OldPeculiar : ) I know I'm chuffed, no points or anything from when I started driving and then in one fell swoop....!
I would think that DVD's point is quite valid - admittedly it does really make me look even dafter but. I guess the best thing to reduce my insurance again would be to follow in my fathers example and do an IAM course (any advice pdc?(I looked at your profile)) ...I did a few times out with a police instructor a while back which were great, an awsome guy who was just so calm and smooth behind the wheel. A hugely good example to us all. I guess last night was a stupid lapse...just heavily penalised!

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Wed 9 Jun 2004 18:58

temporary speed restrictions - Wales Forester

Two temporary Gatso's in roadworks (temporary 40 mph restriction) near me have made the front page of the local paper by catching 100 drivers in a day, thats on the A550/A494 dual carriageway into North Wales.

Of course they're in Chief Constable Brunstrom's area so I'm sure there is a never ending supply of film available for them.

PP

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 09:58

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

Yep, from memory the only warning signs at that point were

the matrix signs in the central reservations (just a 50 in

a circle in yellow/orangeish lights). But don't get my hopes up!

minitim, what about at the entrance to the works? Was there a proper sign, with the red circle around it? If not, then the indicated limit is not enforceable, as it is advisory only.

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 13:32

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

Mmm, I have to admit that there were signs up at the start of the works, but not all the way through, and it was unclear where the works finished - I assumed at one point that they must have done (cones all stopped etc) but then the matrix signs were still showing 50, infact that matrix signs were the only method that were used during tavelling through the works, and were used as the eventual indicator of the end of the works, by showing a derestricted sign.

Frankly I'm expecting the worst and I am at fault, but with such a strange and unclear system of penalising drivers I think I could be expecting anywhere between 0pts and 6pts, and a fine of between £60-2500 along with increased insurance for 3yrs probably adding on £600-1500 over my current cost...does the punishment fit the crime?

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 14:05

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

minitim,

someone got off a fine and points yesterday because he was able to prove that the 30 mph signs were in the wrong place. tinyurl.com/367nk

I would advise you start asking around on the following sites:

www.pepipoo.com
www.safespeed.org
www.abd.org.uk/ especially this link www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm as it deals with the legal requirements of signs.

I would say that all is not lost.

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 14:07

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

Infact minitim, having just read the article at tinyurl.com/367n through, the guy concerned had used the info at the abd site to argue his case.

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 14:13

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

From the ABD

"The only circumstances in which speed limit signs will be encountered along a motorway, apart from at the entry and exit points, are where a speed limit lower than 70mph applies, as is sometimes the case on urban motorways, and temporarily at road works. In those cases, the normal requirements apply with regard to signs at the start and end of the speed limit, and to repeater signs."

minitim, the matrix signs are not valid repeater signs.

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 15:45

temporary speed restrictions - minitim

Very interesting, having read all of those sites I think I should go back and check the motorway, but I can't believe that nobody else has noticed before! I'm sure that hundreds of people have been caught there before.... Anybody?... Certainly if there were standard signs along the hard shoulder they were not sufficiently illuminated. But really I am at fault and should expect to pay a penalty, if I go all the way out there tonight I shall report back tomorrow!

I'm just feeling a bit depressed about the whole thing today - I wonder if people have studied the stress of waiting for a nip!

Thanks pdc - how/where did you do your IAM course? Do you go out with instructors for free, and only pay to join a club and for the test?

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Thu 10 Jun 2004 15:57

temporary speed restrictions - pdc {P}

www.iam.org.uk/

I know of a stretch of 40mph dual carriageway in Manchester where one of the two entry signs was missing for 6 months. Had they ever pushed me following my non signing of the NIP, I would have used that to get off the offence.

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Fri 11 Jun 2004 11:13

temporary speed restrictions - Hawesy1982

Just out of interest in the numbers of people who get caught by roadwork cameras, does anyone know what the M25 Jcn 15-12 camera count is up to now?

About 6 weeks ago it was on 10767, just wondering if people have realised that the cameras actually work yet!?!

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Mon 14 Jun 2004 13:47

40 limited lorrys - OldPeculiar

I had the misfortune to be stuck behind a supermarket lorry the other day on a NSL road. On the back was a sign that stated "this vehicle is limited to 40mph on single carriageway roads" and yes, it didn't once creep above 40. I assume this limitation is done by satellite so the lorry can tell what sort of road it's on. Has anybody else been stuck behind a lorry limited like this? Why on earth did someone decide to limit said lorry and is it becoming more common (or the law)?

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Mon 14 Jun 2004 13:55

40 limited lorrys - teabelly

The 40mph limit for hgvs has always been in place. But it isn't until recently that the police have started to enforce it more. It was far better when lorry drivers were given latitude ie a steady 50 on an A road was deemed acceptable. This way it is only going to cause more accidents as people have to overtake the lorry if they want to get a reasonable move on in an nsl. It would be much better to change the limit for hgvs on single carriageway roads to 50.

I have been stuck behind lorries like this quite a lot but at least on straight bits you can get passed them. The ones that do a steady 50 on A roads I'll just sit behind (it is too tricky to get passed unless you go round them on a twisty bit with good visibility). I'll only bother going passed the 50 mph ones if there is a big wide amount of roadspace as otherwise it isn't really worth the risk for another 10mph or so.

I got stuck behind a sainsbury's lorry that was doing about 25 mph up a hill. I have never been so glad to get passed. I don't know whether he was deliberately slowing up to allow people to get passed or whether he was just in the wrong gear!
teabelly

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