My gf just called. Thankfully no-one was hurt but she had a minor accident today (well yesterday now). I'd like some advice.
She was going along a wet road (40 limit, but at less than that as she had just exited a roundabout) when the traffic lights she was approaching turned amber. As she was nearly over the line and didn't want to risk an emergency stop in poor conditions she continued. Sadly someone waiting to turn right across her path wasn't so patient. They turned and my gf emergency stopped and hit the rear off side corner of their fiesta with the front near side of her car.
My gf gave her details including insurance to the other driver but only got the other drivers name and address. There was a witness who was in the queue waiting to turn right following the fiesta. She didn't get their details but the other driver did. She does not think that this driver moved (which I take as confirmation of the fact that it wasn't safe to do so).
According to my gf's insurance company recommended garage the damage 'is only cosmetic' to her car and sounds like a minor dent to the other car.
I don't know the junction concerned and as far as my gf can remember there isn't a filter signal that the other driver could have been obeying.
As soon as we can get there in daylight (this weekend) we will check this out. The other thing I though of is if the timing of the lights is such that the turning driver had had a red light in their direction for a while but there was still a green in my gfs. Anything else that we should try and find out ? - rather that going their ourselves can we phone the local authority and get a definitive statement of timing for the lights. We'll also look for CCTV but getting that may be fun.
The other thing that worries me is that the other driver was driving hers sons car on his insurance. I have a bad feeling about that.
Any advice or suggestions as how the insurance companies may see this?
Thanks and apologies to anyone that may read this in other places as she is a bit upset about this and I'd like to offer useful advice as soon as possible.
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We'll from your story it sounds like the other driver did 'anticipate' a green light however that could be very hard to prove. Some additional practical actions you could take are:
Check the timing on the lights -ie how long between going amber/red on one set to green on the other. Can you see the lights for the main road from the side one (so you can anticipate a change)
Ring up the other driver and get thier insurance details and the name and address of the witness your GF's insurerers will probably want that information and the other driver is legally obliged to provide thier insurance details.
You don't say what car you GF drives or if she's fully comp. Is it worth claiming for? (You should still inform the insurers of the accident though)
Your description of the accident sounds like it would be quite hard to apportion 100% blame to either side without a very good winess statement. Aside from the practical stuff suggested give her a hug and remind her that no-one was hurt and the worst that's likely to happen is that her insurance premium will go up a bit a renewal time.
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I'm afraid you'll have to go and look at the lights yourselves. Regrettably you also need to look at a similar time because they can vary throughout a week or day. Even if the LA told you the details, lights can malfunction, vary or be set up incorrectly.
At the end of the day it will come down to what the witness says, I'm afraid.
And as Old Peculiar mentioned, you would then never get blame apportioned 100% to the other party if the witness disagrees with you. And if the witness does agree with your side, I can't see the other driver passing on their details to you.
Ring them up to pass on your insurance details by all means, if nothing else it will give you the opportunity to judge their thoughts on the accident.
Even partial blame will do for your NCB/renewal premium.
OldPeculiar's last paragraph is pretty sensible. I'd go with that.
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I’m confused or the facts are good . If your gf clipped the others cars rear O/S with her N/S then the other car was well into its manoeuvre and nearly out of the way. If that is the case and the other waiting car was stationary then the car you hit was a chancer and got tagged. Are you sure this is correct. Draw it out and recheck what body parts hit what. If the stationary can gave witness details to the other driver then it appears they are supporting them. Come back. Regards Peter
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This sounds to me vey like a situation where I was in the position of the witness behind the right turner.
I'd check whether the lights at which she was turning right are a full double set with the right hand set controlling the right hand turn.
In the situation I witnessed the woman turning right in front of me did not know the area , was being directed by her passenger and misread the straight on light which was at green and turned across the red right turn light and wrote off a Hillman Imp ( it was a long time ago).I gave a statement for the Imp driver and he eventually got his insurance payout.
From the positions the car ended up in it seems that the other driver must have either misjudged your gf's speed or jumped a red / amber if the witness behind was not moving .
I'd be having a word with the witness asap.
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I think someone once imparted upon me the information that in order to prosecute for jumping a red light, the police officer had to see the signal that the driver would see. It wouldn't be good enough to be going in the opposite direction to the aledged offender and assume that because the signal was red to you that it was to him.
I must have read it on this board sometime in the past 12 months.
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the point being that the other driver and witness may have seen a red for themselves but it could have (although your gf's account states not) been on green for your gf.
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So lets take the other view point. The women was in the box waiting to turn right with a green light in front of her. The light turns amber and there is no car crossing the white line so she goes, your gf however saw the amber light but not the car and crossed the white line and tagged the back of the car. The witness saw that is, may be, supporting the other that. I doe start to sound like it bay be gf’s fault to me.
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If she couldn't stop safely then your gf was correct to go through the amber.
Even if the oncoming driver saw a filter arrow, that would not entitle him/her to assume that oncoming traffic would be stopped (all it should mean is that the light is green for the direction of the filter arrow(s) only). In any case, even if a filter arrow had been set up to come on when oncoming traffic was stopped, it would hardly come on at the same time as the amber for the oncoming traffic.
On the contrary, I would not be surprised if the oncoming car had positioned to turn right, waiting on green and his/her light changed to amber at the same time as your gf's. In these circumstances, being "caught" at a junction when the lights change, drivers often complete the manoeuvre after the lights have gone against them - being fixated with escaping, they gamble with oncoming traffic. there is one junction where I see this almost every day.
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Hi,
I think all this talk about phasing is largely irrelevant. (Not _totally_ irrelevant because if someone jumped a red then of course they are in the wrong.)
Someone going straight on has priority over someone in the opposite direction turning right. You have to give way if you are crossing oncoming traffic. Simple as that.
Is it not?
Cheers,
Mark
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Have read this over a few times.
I just can't help but think your gf has perhaps jumped a red light.
She says it was unsafe to stop at her speed, but yet there is only slight cosmetic damage to the cars. This would suggest that she was going quite slow at the point of impact. However she had made the conscious decision not to stop at the traffic lights because of her speed.
If she was able to be going so slow at point of impact to only cause minimal damage, then surely with a bit more effort she could actually have stopped at the traffic lights?
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To be honest, it sounds like one of those where both parties are a bit to blame and while the other driver is probably more to blame it's always uncertain to litigate and you'd be doing exceptionally well to get 100%, which is the only way to preserve the no claims.
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If she was going slowly this may have been why they crashed. I hesitated once at an amber light - braked, decided I couldn't stop safely and carried on - top speed 30mph, camera went off, fine in the post two weeks later. A bit more speed may have meant getting through before the other car - but it could also have meant a serious accident. The slow speed may have caused the other driver to think she was stopping.
At the end of the day as said in another post here, no one was hurt and no major damage to the cars. Do the best you can, let the insurance companies fight it out, move on and forget about it. Put it down to experiance, this will probably make your gf drive more defensively and the experiance could be a life saver in the future.
If the other driver was insured don't be shocked when you get a letter from them claiming it was your fault. This is a standard response from insurers - they never like to admit liability (nor should you ever admit liability)
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An update:
Thanks for all your advice. Much appreciated.
Hugs duly dispensed as recommended. We have been back top the accident site to measure up and to have a better look. Sadly there is no CCTV covering this junction. It is the entrance to Chelmsford College on Princes Road (sadly not on any map). The other driver was dropping her son off.
At the point of the accident it is 4 lanes wide, one straight on and the other straight on/turn. Left turn in my gf case, right turn (at the lights in the other drivers case). There is no filter. There wasn't anything obscuring the other drivers view and my gf had her dipped headlights on.
So I think it will come down to why the other driver would pull across one lane and nearly the other and nearly get into the car park. The vehicle behind didn't move so presumably it wasn't safe to move off.
Proving this will be hard. So it looks like it will be bye-bye no-claims bonus but hopefully it will only be her damage. The insurance company have already booked her into the garage to sort it out, which limits our options of not claiming for her damage and getting it done privately.
Oh - and an interesting point - they have found another witness that hadn't made themselves known at the time.
At what point do I have to tell my insurance company as she is a named driver on my policy. Up until now she has only driven my car as practice in case anything nasty happens to me when we are out somewhere or on holiday in France. Obviously I don't want to 'fail to declare anything material...' but until I know costs, NCB damage etc I don't know if/when I should tell them.
Thanks,
Simon
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"If she couldn't stop safely then your gf was correct to go through the amber."
From the Highway code:
AMBER means 'Stop' at the stopline. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.
This is a pretty strict definition; it doesn't mean "if it's difficult or uncomfortable to stop". Don't know if this will affect your gf's case.
V
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