Maybe there's an argument for really going to town with CNG....fit a used 700 litre lorry tank. They're about £400 on ebay.
Are you aware how big a 700l tank is physically?. An Elgrand might not be a small car, but it ain't that big either. A tank that size would certainly fit in, but given you will be living in the car, it would severely impact the usable space.
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<< Are you aware how big a 700l tank is physically?.
Think of it as 0.7 cubic metres, add some extra pipework, and the picture may be clearer ....
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Here's one www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186332749624
Say it's 55 x 55 x 230cm. It would make a handy bench.
[img]i.imgur.com/yQRjiiS.png[/img]
Dread to think of the weight though.
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Here's one www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186332749624
Say it's 55 x 55 x 230cm. It would make a handy bench.
[img]i.imgur.com/yQRjiiS.png[/img]
Dread to think of the weight though.
Those appear to be diesel tanks. Not very relevant in the context of CNG or LPG, except perhaps as an example of A BIG THING.
A CNG or LPG tank would be more relevant. Perhaps one could use a general purpose gas bottle, if you could find somewhere to secure it..
Edited by edlithgow on 20/03/2024 at 02:06
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Here's one www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186332749624
Say it's 55 x 55 x 230cm. It would make a handy bench.
[img]i.imgur.com/yQRjiiS.png[/img]
Dread to think of the weight though.
Those appear to be diesel tanks. Not very relevant in the context of CNG or LPG, except perhaps as an example of A BIG THING.
A CNG or LPG tank would be more relevant. Perhaps one could use a general purpose gas bottle, if you could find somewhere to secure it..
As Ed says, that is a diesel tank.
Now I don't know enough on the subject to say whether it could be used to store gas.
But, having looked at a blueprint type image of an Elgrand showing the measurement from dashboard to the back of the rear seat and comparing that to the distance from the back of the front seat to where (I guess) the inside of the tailgate to be, I'm doubtful that tank would fit in anyway.
Setting that aside, I've done a little digging and if my info and maths are correct, 700 litres of CNG would come in at about 400kg. Can't find out how heavy an aluminium tank that size would be, but based on the weight of a similar sized baffled water tank (I'm a window cleaner), I'd guess 50-100kg. Point is, having that much weight lying along one side of the vehicle would make for very interesting handling characteristics. Also, how would you safely secure something that heavy on the inside of a car?.
I can't help thinking that a diesel van would be a better fit for what you plan to do.
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Here's one www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186332749624
Say it's 55 x 55 x 230cm. It would make a handy bench.
[img]i.imgur.com/yQRjiiS.png[/img]
Dread to think of the weight though.
Those appear to be diesel tanks. Not very relevant in the context of CNG or LPG, except perhaps as an example of A BIG THING.
A CNG or LPG tank would be more relevant. Perhaps one could use a general purpose gas bottle, if you could find somewhere to secure it..
As Ed says, that is a diesel tank.
Now I don't know enough on the subject to say whether it could be used to store gas.
But, having looked at a blueprint type image of an Elgrand showing the measurement from dashboard to the back of the rear seat and comparing that to the distance from the back of the front seat to where (I guess) the inside of the tailgate to be, I'm doubtful that tank would fit in anyway.
Setting that aside, I've done a little digging and if my info and maths are correct, 700 litres of CNG would come in at about 400kg. Can't find out how heavy an aluminium tank that size would be, but based on the weight of a similar sized baffled water tank (I'm a window cleaner), I'd guess 50-100kg. Point is, having that much weight lying along one side of the vehicle would make for very interesting handling characteristics. Also, how would you safely secure something that heavy on the inside of a car?.
I can't help thinking that a diesel van would be a better fit for what you plan to do.
I think I've posted before about mixed fuel (diesel and LPG) operation, which had a vogue in Australia, and gave improvements in power, emissions and fuel economy.
One might expect it would also make life easier on a DFP, though I believe the peak popularity predated general DPF deployment, so I dont know this for a fact.
Perhaps this could be a niche for CNG, and, since the main fuel source would still be diesel, this would allow use of a smaller, more practically sized gas bottle.
The benefits of mixed fuel operation were claimed for a professional installation, which wasn't cheap. Hare brained bodge-wise, though, my understanding is that "traditional" diesels generally operate with a large excess of air, and power is moderated by adjusting the fuel delivery.
This might imply that you could just run a constant "background" gas bleed, adjusting the power with the diesel injection, without a need for sophisticated stochiometric control,
I do like a good hare brained bodge.
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Good overview of the CNG technical basics as of 2014.
www.autospeed.com/cms/a_113059/article
Climate change, and the associated change in the political climate, doesnt feature, but that is probably more important than any technical limitation these days.
Enthusiastic review of mixed LPG-diesel fuelling system, from 2012
www.autospeed.com/cms/a_113059/article
Edited by edlithgow on 24/03/2024 at 01:53
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There is nothing new in the world of gas powered cars - can't understand why they didn't catch on? gas cars ww2 - Google Search
Wood and town gas-powered tanks and half-tracks, including Tiger I allegedly running on compressed town gas!
tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/gas-powere...p
If thats true, range must have been very very low.
They say
“Luckily, Town gas or Stadtgas can be bottled. When mildly compressed it easily changes to a liquid state. This allows a large amount of gas (stored energy) to be contained in a relatively small space. ”
“Mildly compressed” and “easily” are of course imprecise terms, but my understanding is that cryogenic storage for liquid hydrogen has a typical operating pressure of 150 atmospheres, not apparently very consistent with the word “mild”.
At typical ambient temperatures (and, since these were almost certainly NOT cryogenic storage bottles, those are the relevant temperatures), hydrogen can not practically be liquified.
This is why civilian vehicles operating on town gas used big roof ballons.
I don’t know if the carbon monoxide component of the town gas can be liquified, but given the hydrogen content, I assume the gas in these bottles was NOT in liquid form, and thus that the amount stored, and the range, must have been very low.
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You quote: “Luckily, Town gas or Stadtgas can be bottled. When mildly compressed it easily changes to a liquid state. This allows a large amount of gas (stored energy) to be contained in a relatively small space. "
Then state: hydrogen can not practically be liquified.
and: I don’t know if the carbon monoxide component of the town gas can be liquified, but given the hydrogen content, I assume the gas in these bottles was NOT in liquid form, and thus that the amount stored, and the range, must have been very low.
You appear to be quoting that town gas could easily be compressed, but then stating because of its hydrogen content it can't ????
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You appear to be quoting that town gas could easily be compressed, but then stating because of its hydrogen content it can't ????
Any gas can be compressed, but no gas can be LIQUEFIED above its Critical Temperature, which is pretty low for hydrogen (can't remember offhand). The point is that any practical container for hydrogen at ambient temperature would have to withstand high pressure - i.e. be very heavy.
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You quote: “Luckily, Town gas or Stadtgas can be bottled. When mildly compressed it easily changes to a liquid state. This allows a large amount of gas (stored energy) to be contained in a relatively small space. "
Then state: hydrogen can not practically be liquified.
and: I don’t know if the carbon monoxide component of the town gas can be liquified, but given the hydrogen content, I assume the gas in these bottles was NOT in liquid form, and thus that the amount stored, and the range, must have been very low.
You appear to be quoting that town gas could easily be compressed, but then stating because of its hydrogen content it can't ????
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You quote: “Luckily, Town gas or Stadtgas can be bottled. When mildly compressed it easily changes to a liquid state. This allows a large amount of gas (stored energy) to be contained in a relatively small space. "
Then state: hydrogen can not practically be liquified.
and: I don’t know if the carbon monoxide component of the town gas can be liquified, but given the hydrogen content, I assume the gas in these bottles was NOT in liquid form, and thus that the amount stored, and the range, must have been very low.
You appear to be quoting that town gas could easily be compressed, but then stating because of its hydrogen content it can't ????
No, he said that it can be compressed but NOT liquified, therefore total energy in such a bottle would give a very low range for the vehicle.
Given enough pressure almost everything can be compressed, but gases can not be liquified above their critical temperature.
For carbon monoxide this temperature is -140.3 C, so liquid CO would need to be below this.
For hydrogen it is - 240 C at 191 psi, for methane it is about - 82 C.
,
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You quote: “Luckily, Town gas or Stadtgas can be bottled. When mildly compressed it easily changes to a liquid state. This allows a large amount of gas (stored energy) to be contained in a relatively small space. "
Then state: hydrogen can not practically be liquified.
and: I don’t know if the carbon monoxide component of the town gas can be liquified, but given the hydrogen content, I assume the gas in these bottles was NOT in liquid form, and thus that the amount stored, and the range, must have been very low.
You appear to be quoting that town gas could easily be compressed, but then stating because of its hydrogen content it can't ????
Correct.
Twice
I'm criticising the people I'm quoting. I think they are wrong. (Its the Internyet)
That aside, there are photos of Panther (about 45 tonnes) and Tiger I (about 55 tonnes) tanks with non huge cylinders on their rear decks, which are claimed to contain town gas. These were apparently used for training, with presumably a town gas supply (and compressors) available at the training base, but even so, I was surprised they had a usable range/endurance.
It would be interesting to know what it was
Edited by edlithgow on 20/03/2024 at 12:33
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The term "TOWN GAS" was used back before the 70's when North Sea Gas (Natural Gas) came on stream. Town Gas was the stuff made at the local gas works in this country from coal/coke (every town had one) and was stored in the huge gasometers that dominated the skyline. In our town they were in the town centre behind shops, banks etc, crazy place to put them but different times.
The process was not at all environmentally friendly. The gas contained a***nic and to clean this out before it went into peoples houses it was filtered through a chemical that turned deep blue with use (referred to as peacock blue) and was rarely removed from site and created a huge issue when the sites were cleaned up. Cleaning up such sites was a good earner for the company I worked for but we were rarely able to do a total clean. Had to provide systems to prevent ground water passing trough the site and any product coming to the surface, cost a fortune but in inner city areas developers were prepared to pay when land was mega expensive.
So what gas are posters referring to, no Town gas in the UK as far as I know.
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The term "TOWN GAS" was used back before the 70's when North Sea Gas (Natural Gas) came on stream. Town Gas was the stuff made at the local gas works in this country from coal/coke (every town had one) and was stored in the huge gasometers that dominated the skyline. In our town they were in the town centre behind shops, banks etc, crazy place to put them but different times.
The process was not at all environmentally friendly. The gas contained a***nic and to clean this out before it went into peoples houses it was filtered through a chemical that turned deep blue with use (referred to as peacock blue) and was rarely removed from site and created a huge issue when the sites were cleaned up. Cleaning up such sites was a good earner for the company I worked for but we were rarely able to do a total clean. Had to provide systems to prevent ground water passing trough the site and any product coming to the surface, cost a fortune but in inner city areas developers were prepared to pay when land was mega expensive.
So what gas are posters referring to, no Town gas in the UK as far as I know.
Ed's post is referring to WW2 Germany, when they used the same process as we did to produce town gas from coal.
Years ago I visited Laporte's sulphuric acid works in Castleford, iron oxide was used at gasworks to filter sulphur from the gas: the resulting iron sulphide was burned to give SO2 to feed the lead-chamber acid process.
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When I worked in London there was a large wilderness area out East of Docklands with partially demolished concrete buildings all leaning sideways. Very post apocalypse, but AFAIK only used as a slightly unconvincing Cockney stand-in for Hue, in Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket.
Tempted to compare it to contemporary Gaza, but in fact that appears to have been more thoroughly demolished.
Technology, at least, moves on.
The story was this had been the huge Beckton Gas Works, which they'd started to demolish, but then found it to be so horribly contaminated (dioxin, mostly) that they had to stop.
I did have a bit of a peripheral poke around but didn't explore it thoroughly, which I regret. Eventually, and very slowly, they did clean it up. I suppose the value of the site inflated enough to cover the clean-up costs, plus maybe the decon techniques improved.
Much earlier, when camping in London, I considered pitching a tent on the site of a long-demolished gasworks in Richmond, near Kew, but thought better of it, since you could still smell that gasworks smell. My grandparents lived fairly close to York gasworks so I was familiar with the smell as a child.
I ended up on a tidal desert island in the Thames, probably healthier, though it had a derelict boatyard so maybe not chemically pristine..
Edited by edlithgow on 21/03/2024 at 00:38
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