I have a ’95 Xantia 1.9TD with 164k Miles. Yesterday it would not start and my wife called the AA out who diagnosed 3 defective glow-plugs. Having had no prior starting problems I was surprised at this but figure to get all 4 changed. The AA did get it started, but no surprise that I couldn’t get it to start today.
Called a few garages and am getting quotes of £100 - £130 / 1.5 to 2 hours labour plus about £9 per glow-plug.
1) I was surprised at the 1.5 – 2 hours labour
2) As I live several miles from the nearest garage, how do I get it started to get it in for repair – I can’t even tow it due to the suspension.
Simon
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Glow plugs aren't too difficult to change, considered doing it yourself?
Not much investment required - think it's a 12mm deep ring socket required (plus generous helping of WD40).
Given the mild weather the car might start without glowplugs, I'd try this with another car assisting with jump leads.
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1st assumption was that it would be almost as simple as changing spark plugs, but then I get estimates of 2 hours effort to swap the 4 - why so much labour time, I was expecting them to quote for 1 hour.
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Its not an easy job ,as the plug behind the injection pump is very difficult to access.If you have plenty of patience and are not cack handed it can be done. It might help to undo some pipe clamps to create more room, and you will need a open end spanner as well as a socket. Could also use a piece of copper wire to hold plug in place with one hand whilst turning with the other.Lots of job satisfaction if you manage it though, best of luck. Oh and and only use Bosh, cheapo ones aren't worth the bother.
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This might help...
www.andyspares.com/discussionforum/topic.asp?TOPIC...2
Plus there are another few postings on the subject on the same forum.
HTH
rg
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Right,
Glow plugs, firstly, £9 per plug, tell them to get lost, I have just pad £6.67inc VAT for Bosch Duran (the dogs of glow plugs, 1000°C in 4 secs)
Easy to change, except for the injector pump one as you said. I believe the Xantia is the same as the 306TD.
To do the injector pump one remove the intercooler (3 x 6mm allen key head bolts across the top) (2 x 10mm bolts at the front)(1x air hose held on by a ban clamp) (1 x vacume hose from the injector pump, (small 8mm hose) This comes off REALLY easily.
Then the remove the fuel feed from the injector pump the runs round by the glow plug (2 x 17mm spanners required). This makes the glow plug very accessible with a 12mm socket (I use a 3/8 drive) Job done.
Sound a lot, but it should take the average DIY chap about 1 hour.
Laters
H
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I paid about £130 for changing all 4 glow plugs at a garage in Cambridge on my 1994 Peugeot 405 turbo diesel in 2000. They failed again within a fortnight though, and the garage had to re-do the lot. They weren't happy about this, and I never used them again. Yes, like most jobs on cars, given time, facilities and the inclination you could do it yourself. I had none of these three for something with the build quality of a cheap biro.
My horrid Peugeot was only heating 1 plug but would start if you sat and cranked it for long enough - wonder why the battery and starter motor needed replacing shortly afterwards though?
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Why not change just the three plugs that you can get to easily?
If it then starts ok why bother with the fourth.
The TD5 engine in landrovers only has glowplugs on 4 out of the 5 cylinders it sometimes takes a few seconds for the last cylinder to start firing on a cold morning.
Andy
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An excellent suggestion - I actually did this on a 205 diesel and it works fine. It just runs rough for a moment and sounds even more tractorish than usual. Definitely worth a go, particularly if you leave the nasty knuckle skinning job for the garage.
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Simon,
I did the plugs on my 405 TD without too much trouble, bought the plgs from Andyspares. See thread -
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=12018
Regards.
Steve.
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Some observations...
Usually glowplugs fail one by one so the fall off in starting is obvious but gradual. To go from perfect starting to no-start overnight is not the norm for glowplugs.
How did the AA test them? Ideally you need to pull the wiring from them all to test one at a time, bet he didn't do this.
So could it actually be something else?
All these engines are slightly different when it comes to this job, one might be OK and the next a pig. It can be down to the way the individual hoses, wires, pipes are located over the plug. The Xantia has an intercooler in front of the radiator so that is not in the way and doesn't need removing. ZXs/306s are the ones where this has to come off.
Also the injector pump arrangement can be slightly different on various models. For example a 306 I did the other day had a pump that was further away from the head and the 4th plug was easy to get at.
The chargeable labour time should be about 1hr but experience teaches you a particularly tight plug or difficult access means it is best to over estimate.
Regarding plug prices...Under £7 is an excellent price for that Bosch plug (virtually trade), a fair retail for any quality plug would be up to £12 each. £9 is absolutely fine, far from a "tell them to get lost" price. A business needs a reasonable mark-up on parts!
The advice above to DIY the easier three and then get the 4th done at a garage (if you really can't manage it) is sound but obviously the labour for the hard one may not be 50% of that for four.
Lastly to replace just the three, and never do the fourth, is spoiling the performance of a nice engine... a real bodge.
HTH
M.M
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>>the labour for the hard one may not be 50% of that for four.
Obviously I meant to say...the labour for the hard one may be 50% of that for four....
As in don't expect a garage to do the one that can be a pig for 25% of the full cost.
M.M
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M.M
...Lastly to replace just the three, and never do the fourth, is spoiling the performance of a nice engine... a real bodge....
er.. spoiling the performance, how? the plugs are only used to help start the engine, once running they are not used.
Bodge, no not really, cost effective maintenence for a non critical non moving part, its not safety related, not even operational whilst the car is moving.
You said yourself that the plugs usualy fail one at a time, so in all probability it has been starting on only two plugs for a while & it is the expiry of the latest plug that has caused the problem.
As I previously said some modern diesel engines only have four out of five cylinders with a glow plug from new.
Andy
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Andy,
Performance in its broadest sense. Starting nicely is my first requirement!
Starting an XUD engine is pretty rough with just one plug gone. They chug and smoke in a way that detracts from the usual excellent manners from this particular engine. Also remember the glowplugs have a post start heat so you are removing that assistance as well. Add in the fact that the Xantia engine is loaded with the hydraulic pump from the moment it turns over, they need all the help they can get.
Personally also I think starting a 4cyl with 1cyl not firing must apply uneven loads to the engine??
It is quite unlikely any caring owner would be running a Xantia starting on just two glowplugs, and that the third was the one that stopped it. It would have been dog rough. That is why I questioned the diagnosis.
Fair enough if a 5cyl is designed to start on 4 plugs, these engines are out of balance anyway....aren't they?
You can't compare engine types. All the TDi Disco's I look after will start with almost no heat time, even in quite cold weather. The Cit/Pug isn't designed like that.
M.M
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5 cylinder engine out of balance.
Depends what you mean by out of balance, it's no more out of balance than a four cylinder engine which has one piston actually producing power whilst all the others aren't!
Perception is reality - I drove an 5 cylinder Audi coupe 10 years ago which felt smoother than the BX I was driving at the time.
If any engine ought to feel unbalanced the VAG V5 is favourite, but again I've driven one in an Seat Toledo and was impressed by its power delivery. (Didn't like the fuel economy though!)
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Malcolm,
well I\'m a nuts and bolts \"engineer\", not a design \"Engineer\" so I\'m not sure of the absolute tech answer.
However we ran several 5cyl Audi\'s in the 1980s and I found they had a slight smoothness issue...compared with both their own 4cyls and other make 6cyls anyway.
Is it that the power delivery is smoother but the dynamic balance isn\'t?
Aprilia would know.
M.M
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Personaly I would not regard changing just 3 glow plugs on a 9 yr old car as a bodge. If it starts okay, what's the problem?
As for a discussion on engine balance see:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=7010&m...e
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How is the age of the car a factor in not doing a proper job Cyd?
M.M
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