Clearing out the attic a week or two ago I found my fathers driving licence issued by the local county council in 1930 ( he was then 26 years old ).
I wondered if he actually ever had to take a driving test? Sadly he's not around to ask any more.
Any motoring historians out there - when did the car test become law and what sort of form did it take?
Also who is the oldest surfer in the backroom ?
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I'd guess it was some time after WWII - no need for a test when there were only half a dozen cars on the road :-)
In answer to the second part of your question - NOT me!
However rather than ask fellow BackRoomers to volunteer their ages it'd be more fun to nominate someone we think is probably the oldest. Problem is, who's going to start the ball rolling? :)
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There was a thread a while back on seeking the oldest member on this forum, - I can`t recall his name but remember that he is in excess of 80 !!!
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Oh I just can't resist - I reckon a certain 'foreign' correspondent of ours has got to be near the top of the list. Not naming any names though ;)
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My Grandfather got his license whilst doing national dervice - A Senior officer approached him and ordered him to drive to another building. When my grandfather told him that he couldn't drive the response was "you can start now" and that was that.
He still drives to this day (although he's rather scared when he does - always has been)
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I think I've seen him a few times :)
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Volvoman - I reckon our 'foreign correspondent' is a mere youngster compared to some on the forum.
I have to say I don't think my father ever had to take a test but I seem to recall reading that the test came in before the second war .
Dad died in 1969 and in 1930 had already lost one the sight of one eye. By the time he died the other eye had a cataract which made the judging of distance quite difficult for him and quite a hair raising experience to say the least for anyone driving with him. I think his sheepdog barking in terror used to warn him when to brake!
That said IIRC he never had an accident.
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Well H, I must admit that even I hadn't reckoned on an 80 year old being top of the BackRoom's 'Silver Haired Surfer' club!
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Back in the thirties you just paid your money in the Post Office and they gave you a licence - no questions asked and no test involved (according to my mother in law who is still driving in her eighties).
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My understanding is that the test was actually introduced before the war, but was suspended during the war. That is the period that most old drivers remember of just buying a licence from a Post Office.
I heard a wonderful description once from someone of buying his first car, back in the twenties I think. He couldn't drive, but the salesman gave him a quick explanation of how the controls worked, and then he set off home.
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Please make allowances for I have white hair and my muzzle is grey:
1903 saw the introduction of a Driving licence to UK and was a straight forward over the counter job.
Road Traffic Act 1930 (I stand to be corrected) brought in tests and minimum ages.
Due to WWII tests were suspended in 1935 until after the war.
DVD
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I believe 1935 was the year driving tests were introduced although I had no idea WW2 started the same year (no wonder it started out being called "the phoney war"). I do recall my mother used to ignore no opportunity to remind my father on family outings to Bognor in the Morris 8 etc that he had never taken a test and to slow down from the dizzying speed of 45mph.
This was a bit rich since she herself had over 50 lessons from the BSM before they politely suggested she should stop wasting her money since in their opinion she had no earthly hope of ever passing the test (that was in about 1956).
I never had a single driving lesson when I took my test in a LHD Chevrolet Fleetline in Worthing in 1958 when I was a mere stripling. THe examioner didn't know what to do about demonstrating the right turn hand signal so he waived that. But Ihave been re-tested many times since, before anyone says anything about age. Indeed among others I passed the Saudi test, where it was necessary to move a few yards forward in a straight line, then to reverse a few yards, followed by driving in a circle round the police car park, then, worryingly, driving straight at an officer and making an emergency stop before hitting him. Even worse, the licence obtained by this means was exchanged without demur for local ones in several other neighbouring GCC countries.
Why be age-ist? Re-test everybody. Incompetence behind the wheel isn't the prerogative of some age group beyond some bureaucratically convenient but arbitrary line in the metaphorical sand.
Anyway, rest assured it is only a matter of time before Nanny instals that little black box that counts the number of times you failed to keep an adequate distance between the car in front, got 3 out of 4 questions wrong on the annual questionnaire about braking distances which came up on your in-dash screen, or worse, failed to complete the test within the 3 minutes allowed for your answers, how you beat the amber twice at the Goat and Compasses roundabout on August Bank Holiday Monday, and how the in-car breathalyser found you to be a whisker shy of the legal limit after 3 glasses of Mrs Pilkington's elderberry wine after celebrating your 3rd place in the Largest Potato Competition at the Church Fete. The Ministry of Thought will also have received copies of the many muttered imprecations you have made about daft political correctness and the times you laughred out loud reading the Grauniad's daft job ads while stationary for hours on the M25.
When licence renewal time comes up, you will therefore be assessed not only for your fitness to drive but also your qualities as an upstanding citizen in the New Eurotopia. You will receive an almost incomprehensible letter replete with 6 words-where-one-will-do officialese, from which you will divine your performance at the test was so abysmal your license application was rejected by the automated parameters of the test and was referred to the attention of the Commissar's Office.
You will have 40 days grace, during which you must not only re-take your driving test, but also attend a mandatory political correctness therapy programme at a a State Reorientation Centre (no visitors allowed). If you flunk that it'll be 20 hours' community service among minorities who are challenged by the task of assimilation into today's diverse society because of trans-gender confusion etc etc
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I take it you won't be coming back then G ;)
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Usual great post (or is it rant )from our distinguished foreign correspondent -
Growler - I agree that big brother is becoming more of a reality every day but I think even you have to admit there is a lot of difference in driving in the fifties and sixties and today - at least four times more cars on the roads for a start.
I never had a lesson on a motorbike yet passed my test first time and could have gone from 250 cc to 1000cc with no instruction.Nowadays the average 250 cc bike is more powerful than 1000cc in the sixties.These people could ride one with a licence issued in the second world war and never have had a lesson or test It can't be acceptable.
Same goes for cars - more powerful, more of them , everyone capable of at least 100 mph and yet we have people who have never had a driving test of any description or an eye test who got in a car, when as you say, 45 mph was considered fast going.
They must be a danger to themselves and other road users if they have no further training.
I can think of at least two recent threads on this very subject - worried relatives of gran or grandad, backroomers hit by old dears who have no idea.
Needs looking at IMO
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Well, I did say why not make mandatory re-tests for everyone, so I'm not agin them, just agin the implied discrimination on the grounds of age (you see, I AM getting to grips with this touchy-feely PC stuff, after all......)
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It just came to me, we have 3 year licenses where I live and they expire on your birthday. Everyone has to be re-tested at 65, so you see we are ahead of you and no I am not yet 65.
No worries if I reach that age, however, go to to the Land Transportation Office to sit the theory test, nip out to the comfort room, and the attendant will sell you a list of the answers on a small card. When we get to the practical part, easy. Just ask one of the chaps hanging round the gate to do the test for you (guaranteed pass) and study the form for this weekend's upcoming cockfights over a cup of coffee meanwhile.
But, interestingly, every time your licence comes up for renewal, you have to take a drugs test and undergo a brief medical including a BP test. Good in principle I think, if it wasn't for the fact someone else can take them for you too.....
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DVD - if anything was suspended in 1935 due to WWII, someone would have had remarkable foresight, as it didn't begin until Sept.1939!
My mother, who looks likely to reach her 100th next April, was driving aged about 22 and never took a test. I seem to remember her saying they became mandatory either in 1933 or 1936. She disposed of her G(69)-reg 1100 auto. in the early eighties.
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Wrist duly slapped Andrew.
My apologise as I wasn't around at the time but came later.
(Did fight in the Malayan Emergency though).
DVD
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My late father did not have to pass a test because, as someone else has correctly written, during WW2 they suspended driving tests.
At the end of the war, as he had held a provisional licence for over two years, he could apply for a full licence with no test specifying which classes of vehicle as well. Therefore he had a full motorcycle licence as well although he'd never ridden one.
His driving career was 62 years with only one accident that wasn't his fault.
Point of this story is that there will be quite a few seniors, approaching 80 years old with the same set of circumstances covering their driving training probably making mistakes but are unaware of their wrong doing.
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Absolutely correct Charles.I wonder if a case can be made for compulsory re test at a certain age , say 80.
It does seem illogical when we talk about safety and unlicensed drivers that we think of young tearaways.
Perhaps we should be thinking more about these oldies who have never taken a driving test( or an eye test come to that )and yet are deemed to be 'safe' .
Don't get me wrong - I don't want to take away the old folks independence but there surely has to be a time when compulsory re testing is necessary.
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I think there is a good case to be made for compulsory re-testing every 10 years,especially when you see some of the poor driving standards witnessed almost daily.
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I completely agree with this but in two parts
1. renew driving license every 5 years with eyesight test and update photocard,
2. renew driving test every 10 years...including motorway driving which isnt on the first test.
Ian L.
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My grandfather will be ninety years old on February 3rd, and only stopped driving three years ago when diabetes affected his eye sight and he stopped driving immediately it became apparent(as he should, but many don't).
A true bike and car enthusiast, he started to ride motorcycles at the age of fourteen (when he lied about his age, tut, tut), and cars (his father's old Model T) soon afterwards. Of course no test was taken. Throughout his teens and twenties he was very successful at motorcycle racing too, and only stopped when the family arrived.
To say that surrendering his licence was like have an amputation is not an understatement. He really does miss the freedom of not just driving, but driving with skill and responsibility, that much. As an aircraft engineer, he believes in mechanical sympathy, and taught me to double de-clutch as soon as I had passed my driving test. Sure, modern synchro boxes don't 'need' it, but it doesn't half give everyone in the car a smoother ride when changing down briskly ready to overtake.
Forty in a few weeks time, if I should live as long as he I should be grateful, and if I drive as long as he did, I should be doubly grateful, but just like him, surrendering my licence is not something I look forward to!
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90 not out eh! He had a very good run didn't he.
I think driving as we know it is probably not going to be an issue in 50 years time should any of us reach that point :(
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Whilst many of us may curse the dawdling speed of some of our elderly motorists, statistically they are far from being the most accident prone group within the motoring fraternity - that accolade will probably always go to the 18 to 25 year olds, who blast around with stereos at max decibels and not one iota consideration for road conditions or other motorists.
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Despite efforts to prove otherwise, this is an ageism point. Old people, however slow and maddening, are not responsible for the bulk of accidents. It would be more logical to have re-testing every year for the under 25s, or perhaps some other restrictions such as speed-limiters, curfew cut-outs, or a requirement to be accompanied by someone over 25 even!
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Got to agree with Dude but the truth is there are a certain number of bad/dangerous drivers in all age categories.
Certainly the inexperienced youngsters Dude refers to have a big accident problem. But what about all those selfish older people who should know better but behave as if the rules of the road are only for other (less important) people. You know, the ones who choose which laws they obey and then spend their lives whining when they get caught. Yes, there are lots of much older folk about whose judgement and reactions may not be what they were but how often is it the selfish, aggressive and stupid actions of other drivers which turn a minor error of judgement by a pensioner into an accident. Yes, his/hers may have been the first mistake but if those around hadn't been driving too fast/too close would an accident have happened? Given the choice between the 3 categories above I know which I think are the least dangerous and the good news is they're the fastest growing section of the population.
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I was about to reply to DVD when Growler beat me to it. But what the heck, I will reply anyway.
Tests came in in 1934, did Mr Asquith really suspend them in 1935 because of WW2 - I think not!
I can assure everbody that a retest is not required at 65, just don't ask why I am so sure.
Don drbe
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drbe
I have already laid myself prostrate and apologised to Andrew.
What more do you want - sack cloth and ashes??????
DVD ;)
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Just got home from RoSPA three year re-test drive with Met Police Class 1 driver.
GOLD again.
Matt35.
Getting to be Old Timer.
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GOLD again.
Do you take tea in your sugar?
(congrats)
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Stung by all the smacks to the wrist, can I have another try from research/ information gleaned?????
1930 First driving Test for disabled drivers introduced.
1931 PSV drivers could be required to be tested.
1934 Driving test introduced but not actually commenced until
1935. Voluntary from 13.3.35, compulsory from 1.6.35.
1939 Testing suspended on 2.9.39 WWII
1946 Tests re-introduced 1.11.46
1947 On 18.1.47 wartime PLH's granted 1 years grace to convert
to a full Licence without taking a test.
24.11.1956 Testing suspended due to Suez crisis. PLH's permitted
to driver unaccompanied providing they had held
a Licence over a month.
15.4.1957. Compulsory testing re-introduced.
As a new driver in the 50's I have never been tested by a Ministry Transport Official. Motor Cycle Licence granted by an RAF Corporal. Car Licence by a Police Inspector. Now work that one out.
DVD
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Helicopter - this links to a thread that ran a couple of months ago, and should go straight to the 'oldest' reply in it
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=16...#
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Anyone else admit to going from 2 wheels to 3 and then to 4?
When I took my test, the examiner told me I'd passed, and began to write out the certificate. "Who taught you how to drive?" he said : when I replied that I was self taught, I saw him hesitate: but then I explained that I'd passed my 'bike test (you remember, the one where you had to ride round a square of roads!) and I had completed the RAC ACU training on bikes which was excellent (taught by police class 1 motorcyclists). I then had a Reliant supervan, a Delboy special, but in tasteful turquoise, and drove 36,000 in two years. So by the time I took my four wheeled test, I'd had a bit of practice.....
Tim{P}
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helicopter's first line made me scurry off to the family archives (a sack in the shed) as our dads share a year of birth and I thought I remembered evidence. No luck, but I found evidence to make all your mouths water in the form of an account from one H Whitehead, Automobile and Tractor factor, Cecil Street , Dukinfield, Cheshire (as was). Amongst other items, it included
removing radiator, floorboards (floorboards?), dismantling engine, recellulosing edges of wings and body, supplying 4 pistons and timing chain. THERE ARE 27 LINES like this on the bill and it comes to the grand total of - da di da di da -
YES you guessed
NINETEEN POUNDS FIFTEEN SHILLINGS and SEVEN pence
dated 12th august 1943
cheers Colin S
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Colin - I can remember my Dad getting a bill in the 60's for supplying and fitting a gold seal engine in the A35 van we had on the farm.
How much.
£ 56!! It nearly broke his heart. An awful lot of money at the time.
A fiver on Nicholas Silver in the National at IIRC odds of 33 - 1 paid for that.
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Colin - I can remember my Dad getting a bill in the 60's for supplying and fitting a gold seal engine in the A35 van we had on the farm. How much. £ 56!! An awful lot of money at the time.
I paid £75 for a full, from Ford, exchange engine for my 1600E in the Early 70s. Well the original engine had done 25K.
How prices have changed.
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Helicopter
£56 say in 1965 would be worth £665 today. Here's a useful link to work out the value of money now and then:
eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/pound_question.php
Makes property price comparisons frightening or what we paid for new cars ten years ago.
Regards
Charles
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He was lucky to get all the bits needed during the War...
IIRC £20(ish) was the average weekly wage (Who actually gets that!?) in the '60s so it was a lot of money in '43.
What vehicle was the work done on?
John R
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Miners went on strike in early 70s for £20 a week.
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I bought a two bedroom flat in south London with the wife in 1973 for £8500 and IIRC my annual income at the time was £1800.
The maximum mortgage was three times our joint income.
The flat had a garage and a very large garden.
Car at the time was a 1500 cc Hillman Avenger.I can't remember what I paid for it.
I used to love driving my employers company Triumph 2500 PI.
I could have bought it for £200 in 1973 when he disposed of it but was worried because petrol injection was a very new concept and the horror stories of replacement of injection unit put me off..
I also turned down a beautiful 1950's BSA Gold Star selling for £50 in 1972. What a waste!
Ah Nostalgia..... it ain't what it used to be.
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Just to get in quick before this non motoring stuff gets binned by the Mods. but in 1974 (summer hols.) I was working 5 full days plus half of Saturday in a warehouse for £11 pw.
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To drag the thread back to motoring but continue the money in the 70s theme, my driving lessons in 1972 cost £1.80 each so my 11 lessons cost me less than the £25 which I have been quoted as an hourly rate for my younger son when he turns 17 in a couple of months.
And he wont get to drive a convertible as his driving school car
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Showing my age -I seem to recall a big commotion when driving lessons went over £1 an hour which shows when I took when I took my test.
It was very interesting to see how things have changed when Helicopter Jr had a course of driving lessons 6 years ago ( paid for by dad as 17th Birthday present ) and IIRC total cost around £250.00 - worth every penny when he collects us at 1 am from 'nights out' saving up to £ 20 - 30 in taxi fares a time.
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In reply to John R(P)'s specific question, the £19 bill in 1943 was for a Standard 8 circa 1937 0r 38 which was sold shortly after the war, by which time pa had died, for something in the region of four times what it had cost second hand before the war.
Cheers Colin S
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Father (80 and a bit) hasn't sat on a motorbike since the 50's, yet it remains on his licence. Joking I hope, but he regularly threatens us that he'll go out and by a 1000cc Honda...
I think there's definitely ageism in this thread. So I'm going to join in, but from the other end and suggest raising the driving age to 25 at least and then we'd all be safer....
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My father is in his 70's and still hires trials type bikes on holidays (to blow the cobwebs away). My mother doesn't stop drinking tea until he returns.
My paternal grandfather renewed his licence after WWII and due to records being destroyed was asked to sign a document stating he had a full licence prior to the event, he was then issued with a full licence. When I say full I mean full, he was entitled to drive everything from mopeds to tanks.
Must be a few of these still knocking about.
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Colin,
Thanks for the info, Standard 8 is before my time. The first car I remember my dad having (not his first car) was an '50s Armstrong Siddley (model not known).
I remember it breaking down at the end of Crompton Way, Bolton(@ the A666 end), when I was about 4... I learnt my first sware words that day.
John R
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IIRC that would have been an Armstrong Siddely Sapphire or the plusher Star Sapphire in the 50's , quite a rare beast in my neck of the woods , the Humber was more common ,they and Jaguars were the bosses cars.
Standard 8 , 10 and Vanguard were more common well into the 50's and early 60's along with the old split screen Morris Minor, Austin A30's and A35's , Ford Prefects etc.
The reason for the good sale price of the Standard 8 was that most factories during the war were geared to armament production so any set of wheels after the war were like gold dust.
I used to have the 'Observers book of Automobiles' and remember the thrill of spotting rarities like Panhard , Alvis or Facel Vega on the old AI.
Well we didn't have television in those days...
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I remember my parents buying a 1938 Standard 8 in about 1950 - it was their first car after the war, rather a dull maroon with leather seats. Ma had owned a ~1924 Jowett Javelin until the 30s, but Pa was more into bikes. While working in Colchester he used to visit Grandma in Cheltenham regularly, and claims to have done 100 down Aston Clinton hill (which now has a new bypass). Don't know what the bike was though.
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Dad's first car after the war was a 1936 Morris 12 - the car even had a wireless ( valve type - it was well into the 60's before transistors arrived )and we could just about hear the light programme fading in and out - wireless was called by father 'that box of whistles' cos that was all you could usually hear.
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