Electric - Dangerous

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 10:36
Electric - Dangerous - HGV ~ P Valentine

Man 'kidnapped' by electric car called police to ram him off road (msn.com)

Yet another article, 1 simple question would this cause you to ditch your electric car and go back to fossil fuels ??

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 10:49
Electric - Dangerous - movilogo

It puts me off buying MG.

This can happen in ICE cars too and few years back there was a news where cruise control stuck in a car and driver could not stop, hit a lorry and died.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 10:57
Electric - Dangerous - badbusdriver

Yes, the fact that it was an EV has nothing to do with what happened.

But that wouldn't fit in with the OP's apparent new role as "EV alarmist" in Sammy's absence!

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:06
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
I may start a new post about the ICE Mini I saw on fire on the M62 hard shoulder yesterday and denounce them all as dangerous. It’s the same sample size.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:21
Electric - Dangerous - Bolt

It’s the same sample size.

very much doubt the fire intensity is bad as an EV battery fire, which is the point everyone seems to be evading, ice fires are really bad we all know, but nothing like as bad as an EV in thermal runaway, thats without the smoke they pour off

so you can denounce as much as you like...but a way has been found to reduce the fires and short the batteries out so they are dead, and thats using brine to put the fire out, much quicker apparently than using thousands of gallons of water to dull the fire(not put it out)

I gather the only problem may be getting it into the battery

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:30
Electric - Dangerous - HGV ~ P Valentine

You are right it is a "sample" but the evidence is growing that EC are bad news, and how many times does it happen that we ( the public ) do not get to hear about. While brakes have failed on normal cars it just seems to me that normal cars are still so much safer.

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 16:45
Electric - Dangerous - Engineer Andy
I may start a new post about the ICE Mini I saw on fire on the M62 hard shoulder yesterday and denounce them all as dangerous. It’s the same sample size.

To be fair, more often than not one ICE car on fire dousn't take several days to be extinguished (EV fires are often left to burn, which can block the road for a long time as well as more noxious fumes) and/or lead to nearby vehicles / properties being caught up in due to the ferocity of the fire and difficulty for it to be put out safely.

That's why many cargo carries are insiting they leav big gaps between EVs on ships and thus will have to pass on much bigger costs to the consumer.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:26
Electric - Dangerous - HGV ~ P Valentine

How has it got nothing to do with Ev ?

"fully electric vehicle suffered a ''catastrophic malfunction'' is just 1 part of the article.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:29
Electric - Dangerous - Chris M

"the fact that it was an EV has nothing to do with what happen"

Bit early to say that and I doubt MG will announce the reason. If the same had happened with an ICE there would be a couple of things you would try such as switching off the ignition (assuming it had a key) or knock it into neutral. Engine may end up toast, but you'd stop the car and not only be safe yourself, but so would everyone else.

If the car in question was only doing 15mph, I'd have found an strategically positioned tree. Driver sounds like a drama queen.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:40
Electric - Dangerous - HGV ~ P Valentine

He prob shat himself and panicked, as you correctly stated in a normal car there are things you can do to cut the drive and slow down naturally or by using the clutch.

But does does this not pose a bigger question ? As cars become more "self driving" there is always a danger that when it goes wrong, the driver becomes a passenger ?

Imagine cruise control ? I use it myself, but imagine on a motorway it fails to disengage at the worst possible time ?

Another question, and I have asked this of people who drive, how many people know how to bring a car to a stop when the brakes fail using the clutch, without stalling the engine ?

And, if that happens and you have power steering as opposed to power assisted steering then the panic becomes worse because suddenly they cannot steer the car, never a good idea to remove the key as you have lost what little chance you might have had of controlling the car, and what about keyless cars ? The key would only have to be near the car.

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Fri 6 Oct 2023 09:14
Electric - Dangerous - RickH

You say it has nothing to do with the car being an EV. I think that may not be true, here's why. On a conventional ICE car a vacuum pump, often located at the end of a camshaft, provides vacuum for the turbo charger wastegate actuator (if turbo fitted), and the brake servo. When that fails the brake pedal is rock hard and the brakes feel like they have failed.

In an EV that vacuum pump is electric. That means that any ECU malfunction might command the pump off. This cannot happen in an ICE car, the pump is mechanical.

Having experienced servo failure, and used the handbrake to stop (again mechanical in most cars, electrical in most EVs) I can assure you that combined with the multiple systems failures this gentleman's car appears to have suffered it would be truly terrifying and utterly confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs, but I want a simple one, with mechanical braking systems and a proper off switch to kill all connections to the motors.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 11:58
Electric - Dangerous - HGV ~ P Valentine

Ps This reminds me of a story about a woman who ended up having a serious accident on the hard shoulder of the motorway, she phoned her husband and then waited. In the video this guy stated that he first rang his wife and eventually the police.

The point is, that why are people not calling the police first and then family, as the police are better equipped to help you, and more numerous in number.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 12:14
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
‘ very much doubt the fire intensity is bad as an EV battery fire, which is the point everyone seems to be evading, ice fires are really bad we all know, but nothing like as bad as an EV in thermal runaway, thats without the smoke they pour off ‘

And as the data shows, it’s much, much less likely to occur. For every 20 car fires, only 1 is an EV. And in that 1 case there’s nothing to say that the battery will automatically go into thermal runaway because the rest of the car is ablaze.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 13:52
Electric - Dangerous - galileo
‘ very much doubt the fire intensity is bad as an EV battery fire, which is the point everyone seems to be evading, ice fires are really bad we all know, but nothing like as bad as an EV in thermal runaway, thats without the smoke they pour off ‘ And as the data shows, it’s much, much less likely to occur. For every 20 car fires, only 1 is an EV. And in that 1 case there’s nothing to say that the battery will automatically go into thermal runaway because the rest of the car is ablaze.

There are more than 20 times as many ICE cars than EVs, so naturally there will be more occurrences, even if ICE cars are less likely to catch fire.

Elementary probability, the odds of drawing an ace from a shuffled pack are 4 in 52, the relative numbers of EVs to ICEs is the key ratio here. (and most ICEs will also be older, many out of warranty and some possibly neglected)

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 12:16
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
You are right it is a "sample" but the evidence is growing that EC are bad news, and how many times does it happen that we ( the public ) do not get to hear about. While brakes have failed on normal cars it just seems to me that normal cars are still so much safer.‘

Do you not think that the Daily Mail/Express/Telegraph/GB News would have told us all about it?
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 12:27
Electric - Dangerous - Adampr

It says in the article that a police officer got into the car and did 'something' that switched it off. It sounds like this guy doesn't know how to drive his car.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 12:32
Electric - Dangerous - Gibbo_Wirral

I wouldn't buy an MG EV. Would be happy to consider another marque, unless insurance rockets like they claim:

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-w...s

Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 04/10/2023 at 12:33

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 12:51
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
Try insuring any modern Range Rover/Sport/Defender in London.

Nothing to do with electrification, just a high risk of theft. I see tales of dealers buying cars back, at a suitably advantageous price, obviously, from customers who can’t get them insured without paying thousands of pounds.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 13:55
Electric - Dangerous - _

Try insuring any modern Range Rover/Sport/Defender in London.

Try insuring ANY desirable car in London.

But going back to the fires

Why risk the EV fire and other problems when I have a perfectly good ICE suv that owes me nothing,

Going back to the "kidnapped driver," Read the MG EV owners forums. interesting...

Upset Elon Musk and see where it gets you. People have had problems getting in or out of Teslas too.

Why pay £25000 more than the value of my current Korando to get an E Korando and pay in excess of £5000 extra on top of that to insure it. Then the serious upgrade to my house supply to install a charger point.

I am not pro ar anti EV, but what interests me is my pocket.

And a little note for MCB100, I still have not seen a car using the charging points at the Dog and Pheasant CO4 5EG when i walk past multiple times a day.

As a poster and no longer a moderator the whole EV debate (if worthy of that name) is getting tiring.

Edited by _ORB_ on 04/10/2023 at 13:56

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 14:17
Electric - Dangerous - FP

"As a poster and no longer a moderator the whole EV debate (if worthy of that name) is getting tiring."

That was my reaction when I saw the OP this morning, before anyone else had contributed. Actually, this was never about debate, but about the poster once again airing his self-confessed hatred of EVs, picking a provocative news article to start it off. Such stories, of course, are easy to find, as certain sections of the press have an anti-EV agenda and they act as click-bait, feeding into hysteria about EVs.

As has already been pointed out, it's a re-run of what happened with another poster recently.

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 12:46
Electric - Dangerous - Ethan Edwards

ORB - the reason why the chargers at the Dog & Pheasant appear underused is that at 22kw they are not considered fast chargers. 22kw iirc are AC chargers...and Renault Zoe can charge at that but most EVs cannot, they will charge at 7kw. This then becomes a matter of several hours.

Nearby at Lidls is a 50kw DC charger that most EVs will be able to charge at a higher rate. Other higher power chargers are scattered about.

So in a nutshell they are the wrong kind of chargers ( for most EV owners).

I may be wrong about the 22kw chargers being AC so welcome any more local knowledge.

Edited by Ethan Edwards on 05/10/2023 at 12:54

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 14:01
Electric - Dangerous - Bolt
Try insuring any modern Range Rover/Sport/Defender in London. Nothing to do with electrification, just a high risk of theft. I see tales of dealers buying cars back, at a suitably advantageous price, obviously, from customers who can’t get them insured without paying thousands of pounds.

Surprised you said that, if you read the article it mentions electrical and battery, one I read said that evs with battery frame damage are to be stored at least 15 metres away from other cars in case of thermal runaway, and would likely be sc***ped because of no engineer's to work on them.

No doubt if they are determined they will sort it out

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:05
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
Not doubting your case for storing a post accident EV a set distance away from other cars, especially with battery damage.

But I’ll say again, it’s way, way less like to be involved in a fire than an ICE.

If you’re really risk averse, don’t drive a hybrid - they’re the most likely to go up in flames.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 14:28
Electric - Dangerous - Bolt

Man 'kidnapped' by electric car called police to ram him off road (msn.com)

Yet another article, 1 simple question would this cause you to ditch your electric car and go back to fossil fuels ??

I am beginning to wonder if all the components put on circuit boards are not the cause of most problems, ie not being tested properly before being installed

I know someone else mentioned this before but it does seem strange a lot of similar problems are occuring even though multiple computers are being put into one unit, probably why ?

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:06
Electric - Dangerous - Maxime.

it does seem strange a lot of similar problems are occuring even though multiple computers are being put into one unit, probably why ?

@Cos it's bleedin cheaper.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:19
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
‘ And a little note for MCB100, I still have not seen a car using the charging points at the Dog and Pheasant CO4 5EG when i walk past multiple times a day.’

Maybe it’s a sign that we’re not crying out for lots more public chargers at the moment…Supply is outstripping demand.
I was down your way last week at Endeavour Lotus on Harwich Rd.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:27
Electric - Dangerous - _

I was down your way last week at Endeavour Lotus on Harwich Rd.

You should have said... But the Dog is not the best place for food.

Other pleasant hostelries are available...

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:44
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
It was the delights of the Premier Inn, opposite BMW, for four nights.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 15:29
Electric - Dangerous - madf

I repeat my views: I would love an electric car:

I cannot afford a new one.

I don't want to spend the required £2k to change our house's control unit, wiring to garage and a charger.

The insurance quotes I received 3 months ago are 15% out of date so this time next year Insurance is going to be likely £1kpa. I currently pay £210 for my Jazz. Bang go any fuel savings.

Edited by madf on 04/10/2023 at 15:30

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 20:48
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
To answer the question asked in a new (and similar) post, yes EV’s have perfectly conventional hydraulic brakes. But with electrical rather than pneumatic assistance.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 23:06
Electric - Dangerous - elekie&a/c doctor

Interestingly, the VW id3 does not have any hydraulic rear brakes at all. The only brakes at the back are the electric handbrake system.

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Wed 4 Oct 2023 23:31
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
Really?
It’s definitely got drums on the back but I’ve never seen a mention of hydraulic brakes just on the front.
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Wed 4 Oct 2023 23:38
Electric - Dangerous - Big John

Interestingly, the VW id3 does not have any hydraulic rear brakes at all. The only brakes at the back are the electric handbrake system.

I thought the Id3 has drum brakes on the rear acting both as parking and driving brake although much of the braking is performed by the regenerative action of the motors.

Edited by Big John on 04/10/2023 at 23:45

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 06:29
Electric - Dangerous - madf

Interestingly, the VW id3 does not have any hydraulic rear brakes at all. The only brakes at the back are the electric handbrake system.

I thought the Id3 has drum brakes on the rear acting both as parking and driving brake although much of the braking is performed by the regenerative action of the motors.

Should be fun in snow and ice. (BMWi3 s- RWD - had major problems in snow IN US until regen braking was reduced)

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 09:40
Electric - Dangerous - Big John

Should be fun in snow and ice. (BMWi3 s- RWD - had major problems in snow IN US until regen braking was reduced)

It's not just Electric cars that use regenerative braking many hybrids do eg The Toyota hybrid setup uses regenerative braking in combination with brake pads/discs when extra stopping effort is required.

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 10:16
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
At the other end of the retardation spectrum, if you turn regen off in an EV you’re left with 2 tonnes of momentum but no engine braking, no box full of cogs swirling about in transmission fluid creating drag, low resistance tyres and a body shape that’s typically lower drag than an ICE.
They still need a decent set of brakes.
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Thu 5 Oct 2023 10:52
Electric - Dangerous - Terry W

Seeing comments regarding the cost of EV insurance I thought I would actually get a quote.

I currently have a 2018 Peugeot 308 automatic with a value of ~£10k. My current insurance premium is ~£275.

I got a quote for a 2023 Peugeot E2008 with a value of £30k. The premiums come in from £325 with most around £350-450.

Given the EV is of much higher value, an increased premium would be expected. I can only conclude that for me the stories of £5000 insurance costs for an EV are scaremongering, approaching complete garbage for a mid size, mid-range hatch.

I suggest anyone concerned do their own online quote for comparison.

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 13:38
Electric - Dangerous - madf

Seeing comments regarding the cost of EV insurance I thought I would actually get a quote.

I currently have a 2018 Peugeot 308 automatic with a value of ~£10k. My current insurance premium is ~£275.

I got a quote for a 2023 Peugeot E2008 with a value of £30k. The premiums come in from £325 with most around £350-450.

Given the EV is of much higher value, an increased premium would be expected. I can only conclude that for me the stories of £5000 insurance costs for an EV are scaremongering, approaching complete garbage for a mid size, mid-range hatch.

I suggest anyone concerned do their own online quote for comparison.

ALL my comments on insurance are based on getting multiple quotes via Confused on a specific EV.

I am not scaremongering but reporting real life.

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 13:55
Electric - Dangerous - nick62

Edit; post removed

Edited by nick62 on 05/10/2023 at 13:56

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Fri 6 Oct 2023 22:09
Electric - Dangerous - martin.mc

I don't own an EV but have had Renault Zoes as loan cars when my petrol car was being serviced. My experience was that in 'normal' driving mode the engine braking going downhill is about the same as an ICE manual car in 4th gear. I only tried Regen mode a few times. It was like driving in 2nd gear. Overall, a nice driving experience in this car. No dramas with braking, and amazing acceleration once on the move.

Edited by martin.mc on 06/10/2023 at 22:13

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 11:05
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
I’m sure that if the original story is found to be a vehicle fault then there’ll be a recall on MG ZS EV’s.
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Thu 5 Oct 2023 13:06
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
Simply for my amusement I’ve just been testing 20-0 times in a Polestar 2 (off road, safe environment) with various levels of regeneration engaged.
In full One Pedal mode it came to a halt in approximately four seconds without touching the brakes.
In the ‘Low’ setting it took circa eight seconds.
With regen turned off I was on my second lap when it finally stopped after thirty four seconds.
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Thu 5 Oct 2023 17:47
Electric - Dangerous - bathtub tom
Simply for my amusement I’ve just been testing 20-0 times in a Polestar 2 (off road, safe environment) with various levels of regeneration engaged. In full One Pedal mode it came to a halt in approximately four seconds without touching the brakes. In the ‘Low’ setting it took circa eight seconds. With regen turned off I was on my second lap when it finally stopped after thirty four seconds.

But how long did it take if you stood on the brakes?

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Thu 5 Oct 2023 17:59
Electric - Dangerous - mcb100
I’m guessing too quickly to start and stop the stopwatch on an iPhone.
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Sat 7 Oct 2023 09:19
Electric - Dangerous - jchinuk

I wonder if the driver read the manual or assumed everything was the same as his old ICE cars.

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Sat 7 Oct 2023 13:15
Electric - Dangerous - Bolt

I wonder if the driver read the manual or assumed everything was the same as his old ICE cars.

I wouldn`t count out a software or hardware glitch just yet, as either on new cars can occur, they don`t have to be regular glitches either as some diagnostics experts have found out, and the odd one has never been found but still there on certain but different cars!

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If you cover no more than 100 miles per day and have easy access to a charging point at home or work, then an EV is ideal for you.

Is an electric car right for me?