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Someone who goes to the time and trouble of investigating, investing in and fitting a new chip, must think a lot of their car, and I would imagine they look after it much better than your average disinterested person who just wants to get from a to b and only service it when they hear a funny noise or the brakes don't seem to work as well as they did.
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Someone who goes to the time and trouble of investigating, investing in and fitting a new chip, must think a lot of their car, and I would imagine they look after it much better than your average disinterested person who just wants to get from a to b and only service it when they hear a funny noise or the brakes don't seem to work as well as they did.
Would this be the same kind of person that is more likely to use the car to its full potential, lots of revs, hard use of brakes, suspension etc.
Steer clear of any car that the owner has wanted to make more powerful, the extra power will have been used. Quite how you can tell of course brings us back to the original post. Perhaps chipped cars should have their new details recorded on their v5.
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Yes, but this will usually have other clues, such as tailpipe embelishments. Most manufacturers release an engine in a 'detuned' state and bring out one or two revisions during it's lifespan which up the performance, just as they do with computers, they bring them out with reduced clock and bus speeds, then increase them until the next model comes out. What's wrong with wanting more for your money?
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Rubbish!
I chipped my 2000 Peugeot 406Hdi back in June of last year. It's easy to tell that it’s been done as the new chip is sitting in a soldered on ‘cradle’. I’ve also been a good boy and told my insurance company.
I completely disagree with the theory that I’ll rag the danglies off it just because it is chipped. I rarely exceed 3000rpm, as there is simply no need. The chip gives me more flexibility low down – so there is no need to abuse it. Incidentally, I also get improved fuel economy.
I see plenty of people taking off at traffic lights who must be nearing the rev limiter. Who’s doing more damage to their car long term? Not me.
I take care of my car – oil and filter changes every 6000 miles, and regular checks and servicing. I may be the exception to the rule, but I firmly believe Monsieur Tailpipes to be correct.
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DieselBoy,
Interested in your chipping of a 406 HDi. Have just purchased my 2000/X from my ex-employer, I ran it from new, now 81K and still going strong. Worth chipping? Mine's the 90 by the way. Would be interested in your comments.
Thanks.
CG
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One reason might be that an innocent buyer of a chipped car would insure it as unmodified, which it clearly isn't. Cover invalid, unless he can prove total lack of knowledge?
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Andrew-T - my original thread related to cars that had been previously chipped by the former owner and then all that extra performance used to the full with the resultant additional stresses on the engine/transmission, and then the tuning box type unit removed prior to sale.
The buyer of this vehicle would then not have any visible evidence or meaningful history, which if not deception is certainly a concealment of the true vehicle`s history.!!!!
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If you are buying used,thats the chance you take,and does it really matter,the overall condition must be really more important.
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So a car that has not been chipped but still thrashed to within an inch of it's life - how do you spot that?
How about an after-market exhaust that is removed before sale, or any other tuning modification?
Wide wheels that put added strain on the suspension?
All could be an indicator of the car having had a hard life. If you buy used without a warranty, as stated above, you just have to take a chance. With any used car there is the possibility that it has been treated harshly.
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There a lot of 'chips' available now where they reprogramme the cars original ECU and so you wouldnt know it was chipped. The older chips are the 'change the old one and solder on a new one' type chips. I believe REVO is one chip that is as above.
Just because a car has been chipped doesnt mean its been any more thrashed than a non chipped car.
I'd rather buy a chipped car, than a car sold by a doddery old pensioner.
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Agreed - but surely the point is that if a driver likes to thrash a car, he will stress a chipped engine more than an unchipped one?
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No argument on this point.
However, none of us would want to buy a car that had been thrashed, because of what thrashed implies - I understand thrashed to be a car driven without any form of mechanical sympathy whatsoever.
Does it make that much of difference that the car is or has been chipped under these circumstances? If you had the hypothetical choice of chipped car with FSH or a unchipped car with little or FSH which would you choose?
As is often the case, it comes down to how the car is driven.
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>If you had the hypothetical choice of chipped car with FSH or a unchipped car with little or no FSH, which would you choose?< Not a difficult question, is it?
>As is often the case, it comes down to how the car is driven.< Quite - and unless one buys from the owner, that may be an unlucky guess.
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Your point is a moot one....sure, you can't necessarily tell whether a car has been chipped or not without looking-and if it has been 'chipped' via modified code being loaded into the existing ECU then no visible signs will show at all-but so what it's no different to any other car that may or may not have been 'thrashed'. I don't understand what you're getting at.
It's only deception if for example the car was advertised as 'totally standard'...'hasn't been chipped' etc when it has-no where in law states that a seller has to declare when a car has been modified from it's factory specification etc. It's down to the buyer to ensure that their insurance covers them for the state the car is in-same with any other modifications. For example not everyone can tell by looking at a car if it has been lowered, or even if it has the manufacturers standard wheels or maybe a non standard exhaust. It's tough-it's all down to the buyer to ensure they are covered and it is a risk but that's used cars. It's only deception if the seller lies about something to deliberately mislead, something not mentioned doesn't matter at all unless it leaves the vehicle in an unroadworthy condition.
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I have to concur with an earlier post. As the owner of a chipped diesel (insurance declared) I
- Insist on oil changes every 6,000 miles,
- Insist on full manufacturer spec servicing
- Changed the cambelt and tensioners at 30k (recommended at 72k)
- Upgraded the brakes and suspension to cope with the additional power
- Have no more power than the latest M-Jet variant of my car
- Generally love and cherish it with a passion bordering on the unhealthy
Having talked to a number of other people with modified cars, this seems to be quite common.
On the converse, you really need to assess the buyer. I'm mid-30s, run my own company and have a life-long passion for cars. I would expect anyone buying my car from me to take that into account. If I were early 20s, had just got a payrise and had slapped a carlos fandango superfastturbonitrouswotsit on my 306TDi then I doubt the potential buyer would view the car in the same light.....
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Dont see what the diffrence between chipping a car and not declaring it to the next owner and clocking a car. Both are designed to conceal the true extent of the cars working life.
I'm sure high mileage cars are treated wonderfully by their owners regular oil changes, early cam belt changes, "love it like one of my kids guvner". However come selling time the seller knows the high mileage car will be harder to shift / will fetch less money because the buyer knows it has potentially had a hard life.
We probably all know here that in many cases high mileage cars are great because they have been operated at optimum conditions. Likewise some cars that have been chipped are not thrashed and are well loooked after.
However would the seller declare the car was chipped or would it just be conviniently overlooked for fear that the car wont sell or the buyer would expect to pay less money.
Given the choice of 2 identical (bar the chip) cars I would buy the standard model as I would consider it to be the safest choice.
Odemeters ar there to record a cars mileage and although they do not stop clocking they do serve a purpose. There should be a similar system in place to record what has happened to an engines ecu to ensur the buyer understands the history of the car.
brickboard.com/ARCHIVES/1999AUG/10015494.shtml
Is an article written by VCC (Volvo car corporation)technical service re the real implications of chipping (from a manufacturers viewpoint as oppossed to the chipping company viewpoint)
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Sorrera, I would repeat that my current specification has lower output than the current M-Jet version of the Alfa 2.4JTD. The transmission is identical in my car and the brakes and suspension upgraded (with Alfa and Ferrodo parts).
Many manufacturers release more powerful engines as models age, often with minimal engineering changes to the other systems on the car. I've read the article purported to originate from Volvo and would point out that the car chosen, a T5, is already pretty near the mark as regards output.
Many people choosing to chip their cars do so to obtain some of the benefits of the manufacturers more recent engine releases. Rover even offer a chip that does just exactly that with older Rover 75 diesels and Freelander TDis.
In essence I agree that there are poor chips out there, but there are also those that offer a moderate improvement for little outlay with little or no risk.
When my car went for its first MOT last month the garage couldn't believe how low the smoke readings were. Hardly the stuff of engine failure......
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I'd guess most sellers of a chipped car would make it out as a virtue, aiming to sell to a like minded buyer. The insurance industry is going to have to re think the question about modifications from mfrs spec; they're still thinking in terms of the visible alloys and the like.
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Why is selling a previously chipped car deception? If you want a car you know the complete history of, then buy a new one. If you chose to buy used, you take a risk. Since most of these boxes are external to the ECU, it would be impossible for the ECU to know they are fitted.
Presumably the buyer could just ask for a written declaration from the seller that it has not been chipped. A false declaration would be deception.
If enough buyers asked for that, and stayed away from cars where there wasn't a clear answer, it would become one of the things which starts to be properly recorded.
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NoWheels,
the idea of a written declaration is fine other than there is no form of proof that the car was chipped in the event of a component failure.
If the turbo failed 2 weeks after purchasing the car, it would be extremely difficult to prove that the failure was a direct result of the car previously being chipped.
Some manufacturers are already talking about black boxes which record sensor data external to the ECU - implications here are quite enormous.
Imagine downloading and processing this data after an accident, this could show engine speed, throttle position, road speed, boost pressure, etc.
I would imagine the authorities would love this to bits!
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I would be considerably less wary of a chipped diesel than a chipped petrol car.
People often appear to chip their diesels to improve economy/widen the power band, whereas my perception with Petrol cars is that they are chipped solely to make them go faster.
Also, a boy racer surely must be a good deal less likely to have a diesel in the first place.
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I would be very wary of buying a petrol or diesel chipped car. My perception is that it will have had a hard life, I feel this perception is shared by the majority of used car buyers.
Perhaps this is something the HPI companies should also check for - whether a mod has previously been declared to Insurers, something I wuld be very interested in knowing.
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Perhaps a declaration confirming that an un-modded car had never been driven at full throttle? Or that the ABS had never had to operate? Would these help as well?
For goodness sake, if you want these assurances, buy a new car! On a couple of occassions I had this sort of conversation on the used lot of the Ford Dealership I worked at.
Punter: "Oooh, there's a scuff on that bit of trim..... and that panel has a few slight compressions in it. How about I offer £3,500 and not £4,200"
Me: "Oh, sorry sir, I thought you wanted a used car at a substantial discount on new, due to the fact that it has actually been driven and used for a couple of years. My mistake. New cars are over there. They're the ones with no visible blemishes or indications of daily use."
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My wife thinks I give her Yaris a hard time because I sometimes rev it to peak power, when its fully warmed up. I say she gives it a harder time, as she always revs it to 4000, in first, from cold! You'll never know what thrashing is if you don't see what non-interested drivers do! Buy new if you want complete peace of mind.
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'Buy new if you want piece of mind'obviously never seen the new car Grand Prix in the docks or the PDI boys thrash around the compound.Buy a new Mercedes and go to the factory to collect,might be safer!
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\'Buy new if you want piece of mind\'obviously never seen the new car Grand Prix in the docks or the PDI boys thrash around the compound.Buy a new Mercedes and go to the factory to collect,might be safer!
Piece of mind.... isn\'t that what that German chap was eating when they arrested him?
And as for travelling to the Merc factory; Alabama and South Africa are far from convenient for most backroomers (making allowances for Ian in SA)
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Ah yes but surely nobody would want to buy fake 3rd rate MB,everyone 'knows'the real ones are made in Germany.
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With the ever increasing legislation being placed on us poor motorists, I guess it`s only a matter of time before tachograph type devices are compulsorily fitted to all cars, which will then monitor every detail of every journey.!!!!
Enjoy your motoring whilst you still can!!!!
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TL: exactly. Drive it off the line. Or even better, supervise your own engine/gearbox build, bench testing (if any) and installation. I'm sure MB could arrange this for a fee:)
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I understand that German is the 'official'language at MB in Stutgart,but line workers are more likely speaking Turkish,Serbo Croat and Polish.Do they still stop for beer breaks?
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What a sad loss to the diplomatic corps you were No Dosh - Sell a lot of cars did you!
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What a sad loss to the diplomatic corps you were No Dosh - Sell a lot of cars did you!
Yup, tons of them, much to the chagrin of the established salesmen there (I was bought in to handle fleet and finance but filled the quiet times winding up the retail salesmen by consistently outselling them).
I spent lots of time talking to buyers and quickly weeded out the timewasters and tyre kickers. Everybody that came on the lot got my attention but if the first 5 minutes were spent answering questions on everything there, from a Fiesta DL to a 2.4 lwb Maverick then I took the view that they weren't ready to buy (let's face it, you need a rough idea of what you want). When I got blinkin' stupid comments like that then yes, I tended to move on to the next person looking for some attention/service and sell them something.
If there were no other customers around I would still give full attention to the dubious ones.
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ND - I'm glad to hear that you were successful so maybe you were not quite as blunt with the customers as your previous post suggests.
It worries me though that you reckon you were the best of the bunch - what sort of attitude did the others have, sit back and let the buyer feel as though he doesn't matter. Thats calculated IMO to get him going somewhere else where he gets a bit of courtesy, attention and help.
I meet a lot of salesmen in my business and anyone who took that attitude with me would get short shrift.
Cliche corner:-
Plenty more fish in the sea.
Customer is always right.
He who pays the piper calls the tune .
All true.
Having said that you probably would not see me in a Ford dealership anyway, what you said has just confirmed my own experience.
BTW I also feel the same about Vauxhall dealers.
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Frankly the other chaps were dreadful. The trouble is, when you get somebody wandering all over the lot and poking at everything, ranging from £1500 up to £15000 and asking questions about all of them, then lands you with a \"straight from the planet pee-take\" offer, you have to decide whether to spend half an hour trying to talk them up or move on to the eager looking couple that have been hanging around the Escort Cabriolet in the corner.
FWIW, I only did the retail stuff when fleet and finance were quiet and only spoke to those that were ignored by the \"experienced\" salesmen so as not to rock the boat. It was rare that I told someone to bog off, but you have to work in a dealership at least once to appreciate the number of total dreamers out there on a brochure collecting expedition. I\'m talking total space cadets here.
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I think I'd prefer to buy a car the owner has spent a bit on than a totally standard car.
If its your pride and joy you are surely bound to treat it better than if it was 'just a car'?
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