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Just had a drive of my mates brand new £35,000 Merc CLK. It's a nice car with lots of fancy gadgets and electric motors. However, it drives no better than a mondeo and the interior trim feels flimsy and is not a patch on the solid feel my MGZT has. It has lots of grey plastic and some dodgy leather seats. It looks lovely, but is it really worth £21,000 more than the £14,000 I paid for my three month old car. I don't think so! How much are you prepared to pay for a badge?
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The other way of looking at this is to say that the Mondeo is a very good car which is not as far behind Merc and BMW as people often suggest in terms of refinement and enjoyment. I certainly felt my Mondeo bears comparison with the BMW 5. Its the badge snobbery which makes people sneer at a Ford. The more fool them!
Splodgeface
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I own and drive a new Merc E320 so I may be a little biased.
I like fords, my wife has one and we have a new Mondeo at work as a pool car.
The Mondeo is a great car and like you I can't understand why so many people moan about them, they never give us trouble and are pretty well put together.
To compare it to a CLK on quality of plastics etc is just silly. To sit in my E-Class compared to the mondeo is like chalk and cheese. The Mondeo, although a great well put together car feels cheap compared to the E-Class, which it is of course.
I know your talking about a CLK and not an E-Class but there isn't that much difference between them, or there wasn't when I test drove them both a year ago.
Maybe the new CLK's are a load of pony but I doubt it.
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Snobbery and sound business sense. The deal we get on our leased BMs is pretty tight ("my" 5 is actually costing the same as a 3 but that's another story)why - because second hand values are so good on them and basically I wouldn't want a Mondeo over a Beemer for three reaons 1.However much people would like to think otherwise the 5 is a far better car dynamically by any standard 2. It is more reliable just have a look at the Tech room threads about the Tdci's problems, I'm sorry if a car let me down with such irritating faults as this I would be forced tto terminate the lease. and 3 The image...I know that in an ideal world that this is not an issue, but I operate in the commercial real world and rightly or wrongly the type of car used by a company sends messages about its success or otherwise...A snob - maybe. I work hard for a living and I enjoy the fruits of my labour.
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Couldn't agree more Pugugly
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Don't get me wrong. I'd have the Merc over a mondeo everytime. Just not if it was my own money. The car looks great, it just doesn't feel like £35,000 worth of car.
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MLC,
I think you've experienced a very useful human trait that stops us* that can't wishing we could!!
*Those of us content with our lot anyway.
M.M
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Perhaps I should qualify some of what I said earlier. When I said a Mondeo "bears comparison" with a Merc, that does not mean I am assuming that it is the equal of a Merc. No doubt the Merc is better put together but the Ford is not so far behind. Lets say that if the Merc is in the premiership, the Mondeo is fighting for promotion in Division 1.
Pugugly, the suggestion that Mercs and Beemers are more reliable than a Mondeo is open to debate. Look at the recent threads on reliability surveys and see just how well Ford sits - its old hat to suggest that they are not as reliable as German marques. Perhaps the opposite is true. Given the numbers sold and driven, there are likely to be more complaints about a Ford but that doesn't mean that the probability of having a problem with a Ford is greater than with a Merc or a beemer. There are plenty of threads which highlight problems with these cars too. Obviously Ford have a problem with some TDCIs but German marques have their problems too.
And, just for the record, I drive the TDCI and it is a superb car and so far 100% reliable. I base my comparison on a recent drive in a relative's brand new old style BMW 530d which had a dashboard rattle as well as a great engine; and frankly whilst I was impressed, I was not overawed.
Splodgeface
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Impressed but not overawed sums it for me as well. It's a car it goes (well) and is an ok place to be when driving along the motorway. Beemers I've had over the last ten years have generally been relaible..the 330d had a squeaky dash - well and that's it, it was cured under warranty, it's choice after all, and I wouldn't choose a Mondeo for the reasons I gave. The reliability of the fleet we have which is a mix; 320 compacts through to the three 5s that we have all of which are "loved" in different ways seem to be pretty relaible i.e. none that I know of have broken down requiring assistance. You pays your money. I have no experience of Mercs though.
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My neighbour has a 99 T reg CLK and Ive had several rides in it but I must say the quality is not what I expected from a BENZ, having had experience with the old W123 series many years ago. The carpet trim on the centre console sides is loosely fitted, the "wood" is fake and looks about as good as that on a 70's Datsun and the interior colour has strong hints of Kia Magentis. The grey leather seats arent that good either, but hang on...........he only paid 16k for it, low mileage good nick etc, he'll get the same as he paid for it in 2 years time so.....good investment despite it not being as bombproof as mercs of old.
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I once drove a Fiat Bravo / Brava and found it really sloppy and generally carp. It only had about 20,000 miles on it and after about 350 miles of which 180 was it one go I got straight out of it into my Mondeo SI. I noticed the difference immediately.
One of the things that I think makes my Mondeo feel a little more \"expensive\" is the sports suspension which makes the whole car feel more sure and solid, something that I have noticed with more expensive cars.
When you can get a new top of the range Mondeo for £20,000 or whatever it is I can\'t see spending the extra cash is worth it unless of course you want the little extra that the expenditure would give. What we are talking about here is diminishing returns.
If I had an unlimited budget I would have a Bentley or Lexus with all the extra options and feel happy to spend thousands uprating the standard equipment if I felt it needed it. I refuse to buy German for personal reasons. If I were to though I would get one of those Mercedes coupe\'s that have been modified by AMG, having said that would the money spent be worth it?
£20,000 on a Ford or £100,000 on something else?
Twice as good possibly but no way five times as good.
Anyway, a Mercedes badge would fit nicely on the front of my Mondeo, which was in fact built in Germany.
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Fair enough, but run an E270 CDi or 530d for three years, and a Mondeo 2.0 Ghia X for three years and the depreciation is probably rather similar.
Having said that, I'm a big fan of the Mondeo, at least in LX and Zetec forms as the higher spec cars really offer very little. It is impressive that motoring for the masses can be so good.
A secretary at work actually thought that someone had had a promotion when their old model Vectra SRi was traded for a base spec Mondeo 1.8 LX, in black with all the chrome.
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As one or two BR'ers will know, I work as an engineering consultant in the motor industry - primarily in Germany.
The fact is that nowadays the 'prestige' brands are increasingly relying on their 'brand image' - the gap between prestige cars and 'mass market' family saloons is getting smaller and smaller - soon the only difference will be the badge.
For example - go back to the late 1980's when MB were turning out the 190E and Ford the Sierra. The 190E was a much better car than the Sierra - more robust, safer, better handling etc. etc. It was fairly obvious that by paying a lot more for the MB you actually got a lot more. The same cannot be said of their modern equivalents.
Having driven both the latest 'C-class' and the latest Mondeo I have to say that there is not a lot to set them apart - the hypothetical blindfolded passenger would be hard put to say which was the better car. With supplier mergers and an increasing tendancy to outsource not only supply, but also design, the major motor manufacturers are increasingly building their cars from very similar parts. Not only that, but the prestige brands have dropped a 'clanger' in my book by outsourcing to Eastern Europe. I had my head under the bonnet of a new Merc today and spotted a 'Made in Slovenia' tag on a major component - quality may be fine, but it just doesn't cut it with the MB brand image I'm afraid (and this is quite apart from the 'Assembled in SA' issue).
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Aprilia
With your knowledge and experience of the industry, would you be happy to tell us what you choose to drive now?
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How much are you prepared to pay for a badge.....? A good point but perhaps the whole story is not quite so simple. I have owned 3 new Fords, the final one being an Escort RS turbo. When a number of faults developed on this car within the first few months I was treated so shabbily by the local dealer I promised them I would never, ever, buy another Ford. They were indifferent and incompetent. When Ford contacted me as a follow up to my having bought a new car I laid out chapter and verse in writing what problems I had experienced with the dealer. Their response was to offer to put me in touch with the same dealer's service manager.
Don't get me wrong, I accept new cars can have troubles - my BMW did. The difference was they were sorted at minimum inconvenience to me. Whereas Ford offered to 'fit me in a week on Thursday if you can bring the car in first thing, and no there isn't a coutesy car available', BMW's response was bring it in asap - immediately if you can - and we'll sort it out now if we can. If you can't bring it in we'll pick it up from your home or workplace and deliver it back to you.
I'm struck by how many people complain about the awful service offered by many manufacturers once a car has been sold (in things like the JD Power survey for example).
I've kept my promise to Ford. I hope for all the Ford owners out there that they've improved their act, but it's to late for me.
I'm changing my car soon - it will be for a BMW or a Merc.
8 ball
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8 ball
Ford dealers do have a pretty poor reputation, but BMW dealers are very far from perfect. I have previously related the tale of my abysmal treatment at the hands of a large BMW dealership. I did not buy the car new from them, but it was still a fairly new and expensive model (7 series) and I expected better. I also took exception to some of their more outrageous charges and sucessfully negotiated the bill downwards on more than one occassion.
A good friend of mine (sadly killed in a traffic accident last year) was a salesman at the dealership and I heard plenty of stories 'from the inside' about how they operated, so I was under no illusions. They will smile and be very attentive, but at the end of the day you are still a 'punter' and they want your money.
Incidentally, the Which? 2003 guide should be out now. I haven't seen it, but based on previous experience it will put Japanese brands at the top for reliability and owner satisfaction and also good dealer performance (Toyota/Lexus??). Maybe you should go for a Japanese marque? - but then I guess the badges aren't so appealing.
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Makes friends with an MB dealer employee and before long you will be told that they just don't build them like they used to. When I used to take my W124 E320 Coupé into the local dealership (before I switched to an independent for servicing), they always insisted on driving me home in it, two of them on different occasions saying it was because they liked to drive it, unlike the recent models. German build quality in general clearly isn't what it used to be, judging from the results of the various surveys. I consider myself fortunate in having cars built before it went slack, including the 1984 Capri built in Cologne (and it still feels like it).
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Having come into some money and in one of my (increasingly frequent) madder moments a couple of years ago I decided I'd get a new car. The BMW 5 series tourer was on my list so I visited the local main dealer to have a look. I found their attitude sloppy and uprofessional - it was only after quite a lot of effort that I managed to get the attention of the sales team at all and arrange a test drive. The car in question cost £32k IIRC and I was surprised at just how blase they were about the whole thing. The car was nice but NOT that nice ! The dealer attitude was very poor indeed considering the sums involved. In the end I decided it wasn't worth it and kept the volvo which I still have. When it has to be replaced BMW will not be on my list.
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I quite agree Roger. The W124 series was probably the best ever Mercedes. They were basically very straightforward cars with a minium of 'gizmos', but superbly executed.
The latest C-class, in comparison, is rather plasticky and and does feel a bit too much like a repmobile. Over-reliance on electronics (where the Germans have yet to achieve Japanese levels of engineering and reliability) has also led to some cars with annoying and difficult to cure faults.
Having said that, *all* modern cars generally perform better than the predecessors of 10-15 years ago, it is just that peoples' expectations have changed.
As to the BMW dealer issue - well what you have to appreciate is that they are not used to 'selling' cars. According to my late friend it was more a case of a customer coming in, asking to buy a car and much time then being spent sorting out the various options, colour required etc. BMW (UK) restrict availability in order to keep prices high and so colours/option availability can often be a problem.
He had some good stories, and a few 'regulars' who had a new car every year bought with a bundle of used notes!
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Aprilia
Did you see my post further up this thread?
Regards
PR
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No, sorry, just seen it.
I have a Mercedes C-class which I've owned from new and has 118k on it, a Nissan QX with 28k on it (bought 6 months ago as a cheap replacement for the BMW; its actually proved to be much better than expected and I'll be keeping it a long time).
My wife has a Primera 2.0 which we bought new in April 1998 and has yet to see any work other than normal servicing.
I also get to drive lots of 'loan' cars - usually BMW's when I'm in Germany and sometimes Vectra's, but also Omegas. I usually ask for auto's (easier when you're on the 'wrong side' and in a strange city).
Over the years (being previously 'in the trade' and my father having owned a garage etc.) I've owned all manner of vehicles ranging from Alfas to Skodas, by way of Citroen, various Leyland/Austin/Rover/Triumph.
Although I do a fair bit of work for BMW Germany (they'll be paying for Christmas this year!) I don't actually own one and wouldn't currently consider buying one. That's one reason why I wouldn't want my identity to be known in the BR - they might not like some of the things I say!
Cars are an emotive issue for many and there is just so much marketing 'bull' around the subject. Many modern cars are now more complex than they need to be for the job most people want them to do. For 99.9% of motoring any Mondeo/Vectra/Primera/Avensis etc. is more than adequate. Personally I prefer Japanese now - reason being that around 1/3 the components on a modern car are electronic, and Japanese electronics are better designed and more reliable than European electronics.
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So the moral of the story is to buy a German car with Japanese electronics.
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Ha, yes - if such a thing were available that's what I'd probably buy. Mind you, I do know that MB and BMW are most concerned about the threat posed by the Japanese 'premium' brands (Lexus, Infiniti, Accura). Its not so evident in the UK; but in the US these cars have seriously dented MB/BMW sales.
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Aprilia
Thank you for your detailed reply. I did wonder if what you actually own might be a sensitive issue with your clients.
I know this topic is about Merc v Mondeo, but you mention Omega and Vectra, how do you rate them, in general and compared to Merc?
Regards
Paul
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"I did wonder if what you actually own might be a sensitive issue with your clients."
Not really, its never come up as an issue. You might be surprised to learn that a lot of the time we don't talk about cars at all!
TBH I have driven Mercs, Mondeo's, Vectra's etc. in the course of work and it is not a big issue with me. Personally I really like the Mondeo - it is really sharp to drive; you could pay double and buy a BMW, but you're very much into 'diminishing returns'. I did have a Vecta 2.2 Auto in Munich for a few weeks in the summer and I liked it a lot. I did a lot of driving down into Salzberg (over the Fernpass etc.) and I thought it was good as a family car.
When you work with cars a lot you get a bit less passionate about them - they are just a piece of machinery and brand image becomes less of an issue.
I don't think that nowadays I could bring myself to spend my own money on a Merc. or a BMW - if its company money then that's different. I would take my own money to a car supermarket - they offer stunning value and something like a 6-month-old Mondeo/Primera/Avensis 2.0 with all the safety features and a couple of years warranty is a real steal.
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I wouldn't disagree with the remarks above about BM & Merc sales staff. Both lots have let me down over test drive arrangements recently. In fact, today Mrs 8 ball on the 'phone witheringly asked the MB salesman whether all their customers were dealt with as we had been or had we been given special treatment for some reason. Apologies followed and it was promised we'd be 'phoned next week by 'The Manager' at a specific time on a specific day to confirm a test car would be delivered to our door. I'll believe it when it happens. Still, the scars of the Ford debacle remain. Mind you, the service in most aspects of day-to-day life is so abysmal that pehaps I'm overgrateful if I'm not treated with outright contempt. Maybe Lexus deserve a visit......
8 ball
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Just back from Singapore where I rode in a w124 250d taxi with 500000 km on the clock. Car felt great, nice and tight and felt solid. Jumped into my hosts Merc e200 k w201 in Kuala lumpur. Plastics look appalling, the AC conked out (gas leak), bits of trim worn - only 35000 km done by a 75 year old man.
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Confirms what Ive seen about Mercs, Theyre still good , but not that good.
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