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Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - MazzaGee

Hi All,

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum but thought you'd be the right lot to ask!

You're approaching a roundabout from the middle of 3 lanes and see this:

ibb.co/C9Dqp0f

You wish to move to the 2nd from right lane.

Another driver approaching in the outer lane, also wishes to move to the 2nd from right lane.

You fail to see each other's intentions and have a little scrape.

Is either party in the wrong here? It seems ambiguous, and I can't see any official guidance on how to handle this other than with due caution.

Just curious as this happened to me, and the other driver started counting lanes from the left kerb, as some kind of '2 goes into 2, 3 into 3' argument.

Any thoughts?!

Cheers

Edited by MazzaGee on 30/11/2022 at 18:51

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - 72 dudes

It is ambiguous, unless there are road markings just before where the camera car is?

My opinion is that Lane 3 at the lights becomes two lanes at the next set of lights, whereas Lane 1 goes into 1, Lane 2 goes into 2.

As usual, observation and anticipation would be the order of the day before any manoeuvre into an adjacent lane.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Cris_on_the_gas

You state "you are approaching a roundabout from middle of three lanes" then post a picture of 4 lanes approaching a roundabout !

You should follow the road markings and be ready for other drivers not doing so. Don't rely on other drivers to do the right thing.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - badbusdriver

You state "you are approaching a roundabout from middle of three lanes" then post a picture of 4 lanes approaching a roundabout !

Not sure why roundabouts are mentioned because looking on Google shows none close to where the pic is taken, either behind or in front.

But, the title says 3 lanes into junction, 4 on the other side, which is exactly what it is.

As to who is at fault?, probably an even split and I'd imagine the respective insurance companies would agree in the absence of dash cam footage proving otherwise.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - 72 dudes

You state "you are approaching a roundabout from middle of three lanes" then post a picture of 4 lanes approaching a roundabout !

Not sure why roundabouts are mentioned because looking on Google shows none close to where the pic is taken, either behind or in fro

Well, to be fair, just down that four lane incline is a massive roundabout, the Hangar Lane gyratory system, but I agree that it's not obvious from the photo!

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Bolt

You state "you are approaching a roundabout from middle of three lanes" then post a picture of 4 lanes approaching a roundabout !

Not sure why roundabouts are mentioned because looking on Google shows none close to where the pic is taken, either behind or in fro

Well, to be fair, just down that four lane incline is a massive roundabout, the Hangar Lane gyratory system, but I agree that it's not obvious from the photo!

That junction is a pain in heavy traffic and often reported of having accidents, some closing the roundabout off, problem is in some cases drivers are in a hurry and try getting in another lane hoping someone will let them in, but often no one will causing accidents because no one will let anyone in. been around there several times and one place I avoid if poss

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Bromptonaut

This is the Hanger Lane 'Gyratory System' where the A405 North Circular crosses the A40 Westway. The A40 is grade separated with the A405 and the A4005 Ealing Road/Hanger Lane on a flyover.

The picture posted by the OP is of the approach on Ealing Road.

You can explore it in Streetview here.

Used it from time to time 40 or so years ago when I lived in Harrow, mostly on a push bike and in a group. Last time a few years ago on the A405.

Ealing road is three lanes, with 'lane 1' possibly a bus lane.

The immediate approach to the Gyratory is 4 lanes defined by destination out of the Gyratory ie N or S on the A405, E or W on the Western Ave.

Inevitably there will be 'jousting' for position as those have not sequenced themselves further up the A4005 go to the required line. Given how busy it is there pretty much 24/7 it's an eyes in the back of the head job.

Absent anything like excess speed or wilful failure to give way any scrape is going to look like a 50/50 to me.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Bilboman

I've encountered a lot of these "five into four" "four into three" etc. "merge zones" in the 30+ years I've lived in Spain, mostly where traffic from two different motorways, or a motorway and a bridge, come together and after a certain length of roadspace, the number of lanes changes and drivers have to just get used to it and find their way through. I've never seen an accident but plenty of near misses!
Interestingly, there are usually no lane markings at all, which forces drivers think, look left and right and decide whether it's best to charge through or reduce speed and tentatively make a merging move. The road width is actually enough to carry on with four (unmarked) lanes for a good while, although many drivers don't realise this. It's all a bit like going round the Arc de Triomphe, but in a long stretched out line. The mad rush into and out of tollbooth lanes is similarly crazy, and neck-snapping acceleration seems to be most drivers' only tactic.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - MazzaGee

Thank you all for your replies!

Glad to see the prevailing thought seems to be the use of caution above all else - something the other driver forgot.

The scrape was so minor we didn't exchange details or anything, but the other driver was just rude and annoying as he proceeded to lecture me about counting lanes from left to right and how he had the right to be in the lane I was already 75% into! (As soon as I saw him pulling across into my side I braked and hit the horn, but he continued - probably wilfully).

Agree that this junction, and the gyratory in general, could probably be made safer somehow.

Oh and Bromptonaut - I cannot imagine attempting the gyratory on a pushbike in 2022! Presumably it was a bit quieter 40 years ago(?) but still a challenge no doubt.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Manatee

You (and the other party) both need to know where everyone else is and avoid them.

If it's about changing lanes, then the joiner is responsible for finding the gap. The difficulty here is that neither of you has any kind of priority and both are equally responsible for making a safe manoeuvre. In practice of course that should always be the case regardless of 'priority' if you want to avoid accidents.

Without seeing a video of what happened it's impossible to say whether one or both drivers took insufficient care or lacked skill. So it will go 50/50.

It's the sort of accident in which both drivers can probably say "it wasn't my fault" yet at least one of them could have avoided it.

Bad markings though. I'm sure something could be devised there to make things clearer.

I don't really mind Hangar Lane but it needs 100% concentration and there are always people who think that one flash of the indicator will make a gap for them and you need eyes in the back of your head, or a neck that swivels like an owl's.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - Gibbo_Wirral

I'm not a local but if I were in this area and I was approaching:

in lane 1: carry on into lane 1/4 or move into lane 2/4 ONLY WHEN CLEAR OF TRAFFIC ON MY RIGHT.

in lane 2: carry onto lane 2/4 or move into lane 3/4 ONLY WHEN CLEAR OF TRAFFIC ON MY RIGHT.

in lane 3: carry onto lane 4/4 or move into lane 3/4 ONLY WHEN CLEAR OF TRAFFIC ON MY LEFT.

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - 5ad130y

Route1 Florida up from the keys at the point when it turns int a turnpike , one minute your in the inside lane happy as larry next minute your in lane 3 with undertaking trucks and overtaking pickups pulling boats trying to merge into your bit of road at 90mph

Any - 3 lanes into junction, 4 on other side... - HGV ~ P Valentine

Nothing new to say as I think everyone has covered it. really depend son the road markings, if there are none then

lane 1 is go 1st or 2nd exit, if first indicate left on the approach, if 2nd do not indicate on the approach but indicate left after first exit.

Lane 2 : Not for 1st exit, but 2nd or 3rd, If 2nd you have to check your inside mirror and move across to outer lane as soon as it is safe to do so, if 3rd exit then you should stay in lane until it is safe for you to move across but not before you have passed/opposite the 2nd exit.

Lane 3 : 3rd of 4th, indicating right on the approach, again checking that inside mirror before moving across to outer lanes.

MSM ~ Mirror Signal Manoeuvre.

The link does not work, general rule is that when changing lanes anywhere it is down to the car changing lanes to make sure it is safe to do so.

But as already stated it really depends on the road markings, or the signpost telling you which lane to be in on the approach to the roundabout. Sorry bescription is a little hard to follow.