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Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Kay Driver

Cost wise petrol car is cheaper to buy and repair / maintenance cost seems also cheaper than PHEV and EV.

Is it still worth buying a petrol car then? PhEV has 2 different drive train and both phev and EV batteries are also costly. Feels like the two are still at least 5 years away from being cost competitive.

Could I get some input on this?

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - SLO76
Are you talking about a new car or used? What budget do you have? What requirements for space and will it need to tow anything? It’s not a simple answer, there are many factors.
Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Kay Driver

New car, looking for something spacious e.g. Estate or Suv for family with kids. No need to tow anything, at best may consider a roofbox but would avoid it if possible.

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - SLO76
The cheapest way to fund most new cars is via a contract lease. The monthly payment is substantially lower than an equivalent PCP and you’re in the same position at the end of either with the car being handed back. The difference comes via the large fleet discounts leasing firms receive. You can with a PCP easily buy it at the end if you want but with a contract lease you’d need to get someone else to buy it, register in their name then transfer it over to you but you’ll get a decent discount over retail prices.

The difference in prices between EV’s and equivalent petrol and diesel cars isn’t that much on some models. The new VW ID3 can be had for £20-£50 a month more than a similarly specced Golf 1.5 TSi, factor in your typical fuel costs and it’ll work out cheaper to run over 3/4yrs.

The larger ID4 and its sister the Skoda Enyaq aren’t massively more expensive to lease than many petrol and hybrid SUV’s too. But it all depends on budget.

My darling wife has just placed an order for a new ID3 after some research into other options after we found that despite the higher monthly payment it should save a substantial amount on fuel as long as access to free charging points remains. Even without it will still be cheaper than a new petrol equivalent.

Me personally I wouldn’t buy a new car, electric, hybrid, diesel or petrol, they’re all a complete waste of money. A good used petrol Japanese car will almost always make more economic sense in the long term, this logic has served me well throughout my life, both personally and as a car dealer. But swmbo has spoken and opened the dusty rarely seen purse she keeps hidden at the back of her handbag and demanded a new electric car so one is on its way, and not for much more money than a similarly sized Golf.
Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Will deBeast

My neighbour has a phev, solely for the tax advantages. It has never been plugged in.

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - badbusdriver

New car, looking for something spacious e.g. Estate or Suv for family with kids. No need to tow anything, at best may consider a roofbox but would avoid it if possible.

Still nowhere near enough info.

You get small estate cars and SUV's which may be perfectly spacious for some, but not to others. Personally, I'd happily run a new Honda Jazz as a family car (with two kids), so how big does this car need to be?

You say this would be a new car, are you buying outright or some kind of personal lease scheme?. If the former, what is your budget, if the latter, what is the budget for monthly payment?.

Also, if some kind of personal lease, there are often specific deals to be had. Which could make an EV or PHEV much more competitive next to an ICE car than it normally would.

Do you have a driveway on which you can charge a PHEV or EV?

What is the length of your most common journey?

How often would you envisage making a journey longer than an average EV's range?

Finally, is there a reason you are not looking at self charge hybrids?

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - mcb100
I’ve just had chance to drive a new Vauxhall Grandland in both petrol and PHEV variants.
I can only quote a motorway journey comparison between the two, but with the PHEV being 225PS and the petrol being 130PS, they offered similar fuel consumption at the same 70mph cruise. The PHEV does make more use of the battery (thus less petrol) if you use the factory navigation, even at motorway speeds, as it can go from charged to discharged in a known distance. The big advantage, obviously, being that up to 39 miles can by done at a cost of the battery capacity (13.2kWh) multiplied by the whatever you’re paying per kWh for your electricity.
If you know you’re staying local, run it in EV, if you’re going distance then set the nav and let the car do the deciding.
I’m not sure where the assumption that EV’s are more expensive to service comes from? Far fewer moving parts and consumables, a service will be a visual inspection, check battery health and top up the washer fluid.
The price of batteries is not a concern. Manufacturers are offering longer warranties on the electrical components than the rest of the car, such is the low failure rate on batteries and motors.
Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Hugh Watt
The PHEV does make more use of the battery (thus less petrol) if you use the factory navigation, even at motorway speeds, as it can go from charged to discharged in a known distance.

That's interesting - stupidly I'd only thought of these vehicles exhausting the battery charge before switching to the ICE. Dashed clever, eh... Though I know the self-charging hybrids always optimise the process in much the same way.

Helpful post, thanks mcb.

Edited by Slow Eddie on 01/03/2022 at 13:28

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - mcb100
I can’t vouch for all PHEV’s doing the same, but I’m told that’s how PSA/Stellantis does it.
The southbound journey discharged the battery so I arrived with it on 0%, whereas coming back on Google Maps it ran almost exclusively on ICE.
Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Sparrow

My brother says his Hyundai Tuscan PHEV doesn't do that automatically. On a long run he drives it on on petrol until about 35 miles from gis destination and then switches to electric only. He gets home with a flat or nearly flat battery and then recharges at home or maybe at a friend's place, or even here, at my expense. He does quite a lot of long trips and I'm not sure it is the best vehicle type for that usage

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Dingle232

I have actually been considering changing my regular Toyota RAV4 Hybrid for the PHEV but need to do some more research on whether it's worth it. I'll probably hang fire until I was going to change it then consider a PHEV as to change now, purely for reasons of saving money on fuel, doesn't make financial sense.

I'd be interested to know what kind of mpg (although I know it's a convoluted figure between petrol and electric) PHEV owners actually get. I get between 45 and 50 out of my RAV if I drive it sensibly but I can't fathom Toyota's claim that the PHEV RAV4 returns 282 mpg.

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - mcb100
The WLTP test is relatively short, and the cars start with a charged battery. Hence 282mpg.
Polestar 1, a plug in hybrid with 600+PS combined power output has a figure of 478mpg because it’ll do 70 miles in EV mode.
Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Engineer Andy

I have actually been considering changing my regular Toyota RAV4 Hybrid for the PHEV but need to do some more research on whether it's worth it. I'll probably hang fire until I was going to change it then consider a PHEV as to change now, purely for reasons of saving money on fuel, doesn't make financial sense.

I'd be interested to know what kind of mpg (although I know it's a convoluted figure between petrol and electric) PHEV owners actually get. I get between 45 and 50 out of my RAV if I drive it sensibly but I can't fathom Toyota's claim that the PHEV RAV4 returns 282 mpg.

That last figure is when, on the 'official' test they expend as much of the PHEV's 'EV' battery on the 'run' and thus barely use the IC engine, giving a very high mpg figure.

In my view, whilst on paper PHEVs sound good, as regards financial costs (or 'savings') and the environmental factors, they are more of a jack of all trades and master of none - an EV would beat them if you do urban driving and have easy access to decent fast chargers, but are beaten by standard hybrids and possibly the latest diesels (given PHEVs are almost always petrol hybrids) for mpg and possibly even emissions if your journeys are much longer, e.g. often on motorways for well over 40 miles each way and less chance to charge the EV battery.

They are, however, handy for those who mainly do shorter trips in more urban areas with a decent source of chargers (or can easily do so at home) but occasionally need the IC engine for longer trips, and don't want the hassle of having to hire a car (especially when unexpected urgent trips) or (for EVs) don't have the time /opportunity to charge it several times per long journey.

The problem is that unless your existing ICE car is very near the end of its economic life and you were going to change it anyway, ditching it for relative peanuts for a very expensive PHEV won't save you money for many years, if ever over the lifetime of that car, by which time every new car may be EVs and your previously shiny new EV costing well over £30k is now practically worthless.

It's the same argument to never replace a gas fired boiler with a new one unless it is economically worth doing so - either because it keeps (expensively) going wrong out of warranty (especially if parts are hard to come by and/or are increasingly expensive) or that the difference in efficiency is huge (I'm talking well over 30% in real terms) and its a cheapish, like-for-like replacement job.

I only changed my old boiler because parts were hard to come by (and thus expensive) and plumbers needed special training to work on it, and most refused. With my ICE car, I'm keeping mine going as it's still economic to do so and seemingly structurally sound, with the occasional TLC.

The environmental impact from mined material to grave of EVs and PHEVs compared to ICE is still very much up for debate as to which is the worse if you take into account keeping an existing ICE car going rather than just buying one new. Especially if green taxes and tarrifs (which severely distort the calculation) were removed to make the compairson a fair one.

It also very much depends on the personal circumstances (including driving pattern and location) of the potenital buyer, including what country they live in (mix of energy generation methods used).

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Dingle232

I think that's a sound argument Andy and we often forget we are still very much at the start of the EV generation. I came out of a diesel (Honda) when I bough this Hybrid last year and whilst I am very happy with it on the whole I often ponder whether I should go back to a diesel as I can take advantage of the high price for mine and likely get into one at zero cost.

The hybrid is great but, allowing for the fact that it's a big car, doesn't really give me any better economy than a diesel would and has the battery spectre hanging over it, as you suggest.

I did actually dabble with an XC60 B4 a couplf of weeks ago but can't actually convince myself whether reverting to a diesel or staying with a hybrid of some description would be the best thing to do. I do around 15k miles a year. Tough one.

PS: Apologies to the OP for the slight digression, hope it's still a related discussion.

Edited by Dingle232 on 06/03/2022 at 20:48

Petrol car still better than PHEV and EV? - Big John

I think that's a sound argument Andy and we often forget we are still very much at the start of the EV generation. I came out of a diesel (Honda) when I bough this Hybrid last year and whilst I am very happy with it on the whole I often ponder whether I should go back to a diesel as I can take advantage of the high price for mine and likely get into one at zero cost.

The hybrid is great but, allowing for the fact that it's a big car, doesn't really give me any better economy than a diesel would and has the battery spectre hanging over it, as you suggest.

I did actually dabble with an XC60 B4 a couplf of weeks ago but can't actually convince myself whether reverting to a diesel or staying with a hybrid of some description would be the best thing to do. I do around 15k miles a year. Tough one.

It's worth reading SLO76's experience with an XC60 www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/160239/past-quality

With the Toyota hybrid I wouldn't worry so much re reliability / battery spectre so much. The oily bits are surprisingly simple. I have quite a few friends with various Toyota hybrids (Prius, Auris, Yaris) some of which are getting on a bit and leggy re mileage. The oldest one has had a couple of cells replaced (not expensive) but that's it. The only potential issue with one that's done about 200k miles has been an increase in engine oil consumption. Generally the Toyota hybrids gave been incredibly reliable and economical.

I'd stick with the hybrid if you like it.

Myself I've stuck with a tsi Skoda Superb but that's more because I fit better (hence bigjohn!)

Edited by Big John on 06/03/2022 at 23:04