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Thinking about it I am not going to worry about electricity outages or petrol shortages.
Since the early 70's I can only recall 3 times when the pumps have been short of fuel which were the early 70's, 2003 and September just gone. In truth all 3 were caused by panic buying and in each case it never stopped us going anywhere needed, in 2003 we even went on holiday.
In my whole life I can only remember one occasion locally when the electricity was off for more than a few hours max. Think it was November 1989, an unexpected and un-forecast foot of snow was dumped on us overnight which brought down power lines. Power back on 36 hours later but then the water went off for about 2 days since the reservoirs had run dry during the outage.
Since its obvious all these events are very rare in this country why would any government even consider trying to plan for them.
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Increasing resilience costs money. Money that needs to be raised either through taxation or by reducing spend elsewhere. The magic money tree does not exist.
Extreme events occur once every few decades somewhere in the UK. Rarely do they have genuinely major impacts. They rank fairly low down on the priority list.
That overhead power lines mostly serving remote local communities came down and take a week or two to fix is not a national disaster, just a great nuisance for those affected.
There may be a case for a better organised immediate response - gas heaters, clean water, hot food etc but not much more.
Folk can make personal decisions as to how to plan for similar events - photo voltaic panels, battery back up, wood store for log fires, water tanks if mains goes down, non-perishable food stores (canned, dry etc), even toilet rolls!.
The alternative is to put £1-2000 in an emergency fund - if necessary go to a hotel.
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Plan for similar events - photo voltaic panels, battery back up, wood store for log fires, water tanks if mains goes down, non-perishable food stores (canned, dry etc), even toilet rolls!.
The alternative is to put £1-2000 in an emergency fund - if necessary go to a hotel.
That's an interesting idea - assuming you are able to travel - if the hotel(s) are in a similar situation.
If many of the affected places are rural and isolated, their problem is the result of choosing to rely on leccy (much more convenient) at the expense of self-sufficiency, where earlier occupants would have prepared for a (perhaps literally) isolated winter.
Here in north Cheshire our leccy stayed on, tho a friend a few miles away lost his for several hours. Our only damage was three panes from the greenhouse, which on replacing I discovered had been carelessly assembled so that the structure was less rigid than intended.
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We used to get frequent blackouts every year (Cheshire/Staffs border N of Stoke on Trent.). Cause was faulty earth cabling installed by MEB in teh area. Now largely resolved.
But I expect as we move to fewer fossil fuel plants and more solar/wind energy, blackouts will occur more frequently again.
No one has publicly commented but in the present most recent cold spell , renewable energy was under 30% of demand at night and gas/coal and nuclear were all flat out. All this talk of EVs and renewables and zero carbon is for the birds as far as energy generation is concerned without a MAJOR change in storage costs and capability which appears 20+ years away..
As for relying for heat pumps for home heating! As one lady said in Cumbia, they are going to strip them out ,install calor gas and a log burning stove.
Take this as a serious warning of things to come.
PS I have a small backup generator, battery backup for PCs, a portable gas stove and lots of rechargeable lanterns in preparation.
The National Grid plans that ALL EV charging will be via Smart Meter so it can be switched off at periods of high demand.!
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The National Grid plans that ALL EV charging will be via Smart Meter so it can be switched off at periods of high demand.!
Very much doubt by the time everyone has an EV there wont be a time of low demand, too many cars around that want charging so the switch off could be a long time...
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Those ev owners who installed "smart" chargers. Some did not , some will make their own decisions regarding charging.
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Those ev owners who installed "smart" chargers. Some did not , some will make their own decisions regarding charging.
I would think electric companies would decide that if the charging rate is too high, not the people using the chargers the other problem as happens with high demand, power is reduced so taking a lot longer to charge
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Those ev owners who installed "smart" chargers. Some did not , some will make their own decisions regarding charging.
I would think electric companies would decide that if the charging rate is too high, not the people using the chargers the other problem as happens with high demand, power is reduced so taking a lot longer to charge
I don't see how power can be 'reduced so it takes longer to charge' .
The only way to slow charging is to reduce voltage so that by Ohm's Law the current flowing through the circuit is reduced. I assume all the home charging systems are designed to take 240 Volt mains input, at lower voltage they may not charge at all.
Or have I missed something? I know by law the Grid has to control AC frequency so that within a 24 hour period the number of cycles has to be the equivalent of 50 cps, I guess there are also some limits on the voltage variation allowed?
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Or have I missed something? I know by law the Grid has to control AC frequency so that within a 24 hour period the number of cycles has to be the equivalent of 50 cps, I guess there are also some limits on the voltage variation allowed?
230 volts
In the UK, the declared voltage and tolerance for an electricity supply is 230 volts -6%, +10%. This gives an allowed voltage range of 216.2 volts to 253.0 volts.
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Those ev owners who installed "smart" chargers. Some did not , some will make their own decisions regarding charging.
I would think electric companies would decide that if the charging rate is too high, not the people using the chargers the other problem as happens with high demand, power is reduced so taking a lot longer to charge
I don't see how power can be 'reduced so it takes longer to charge' .
The only way to slow charging is to reduce voltage so that by Ohm's Law the current flowing through the circuit is reduced. I assume all the home charging systems are designed to take 240 Volt mains input, at lower voltage they may not charge at all.
Or have I missed something? I know by law the Grid has to control AC frequency so that within a 24 hour period the number of cycles has to be the equivalent of 50 cps, I guess there are also some limits on the voltage variation allowed?
I was under the impression if a lot of people used a lot of current/amps ie thousands turned on kettles and cookers at the same time the ampage is reduced, not voltage as that stays constant but due to reduced ampage the time it takes for a battery to charge in those conditions is longer than normal ??
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I was under the impression if a lot of people used a lot of current/amps ie thousands turned on kettles and cookers at the same time the ampage is reduced, not voltage as that stays constant but due to reduced ampage the time it takes for a battery to charge in those conditions is longer than normal ??
I'm struggling to relate a reduction in amps but no change in volts with ohm's law.
Am I missing something?
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I was under the impression if a lot of people used a lot of current/amps ie thousands turned on kettles and cookers at the same time the ampage is reduced, not voltage as that stays constant but due to reduced ampage the time it takes for a battery to charge in those conditions is longer than normal ??
I'm struggling to relate a reduction in amps but no change in volts with ohm's law.
Am I missing something?
I thought it was like water pressure, too many use the supply and flow slows down to each tap, the water is still flowing but under less pressure, or have I got that wrong ?
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I was under the impression if a lot of people used a lot of current/amps ie thousands turned on kettles and cookers at the same time the ampage is reduced, not voltage as that stays constant but due to reduced ampage the time it takes for a battery to charge in those conditions is longer than normal ??
I'm struggling to relate a reduction in amps but no change in volts with ohm's law.
Am I missing something?
I thought it was like water pressure, too many use the supply and flow slows down to each tap, the water is still flowing but under less pressure, or have I got that wrong ?
Ohm's Law is the key here, the current flow is proportional to voltage (which is limited by law as pointed out above) and inversely proportional to the resistance in the circuit. If more users connect, the current flow will depend on total resistance, if the current passing exceeds the capacity then circuit breakers will cut power completely to one or more substations.
A simple example is if you turn on a lot of 2Kw heaters in your house you will eventually blow the main supply fuse, usually 30 amps, the system won't just gradually reduce amps to each of them.
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I thought it was like water pressure, too many use the supply and flow slows down to each tap, the water is still flowing but under less pressure, or have I got that wrong ?
Ohm's Law is the key here, the current flow is proportional to voltage (which is limited by law as pointed out above) and inversely proportional to the resistance in the circuit. If more users connect, the current flow will depend on total resistance, if the current passing exceeds the capacity then circuit breakers will cut power completely to one or more substations.
A simple example is if you turn on a lot of 2Kw heaters in your house you will eventually blow the main supply fuse, usually 30 amps, the system won't just gradually reduce amps to each of them.
The main fuse in most houses in 60amps. (ours is),
EVs require 100amps.
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As for relying for heat pumps for home heating! As one lady said in Cumbia, they are going to strip them out ,install calor gas and a log burning stove.
... and log-burning stoves are now seen as one of the dirtiest emitters we can have :-)
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Friends who live near Rothbury have moved to a holiday let. They have no update as yet when power will be back.
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In 2010 the UK generated 75% of electricity from coal, gas and oil. The rest came mainly from nuclear with just 6% from renewables.
In 2021, 11 years later, fossil fuels accounted for 40% of electricity generation with coal almost completely eliminated.
There are some real challenges to be overcome to get close to 100% renewables/nuclear - particularly storage and investment in generation. Widespread adoption of EVs which can be integrated into domestic energy management will be key.
Over the next 10 years it is entirely plausible that renewables and small scale nuclear will generate most energy. EV will replace ICE eventually - probably wholly by ~2045 - few s/h ICE available, fuel stations closing, lack of new spares, low emissions zones etc.
Historically these sorts of transition have happened rapidly:
- rail replaced barge for long distance transport over 25 years from 1825
- 14 years for the electric tram to wholly replace horse drawn trams in London
- ~2 decades for road haulage to replace most rail haulage post WW2.
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To turn the whole original question around. If anyone in the areas affected by the power cuts had a Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq 5 they could be powering their house, (or at least a small electric heater, some lighting, their fridge freezer and TV) from the large backup battery parked on the drive. Vehicle to Load is still a fairly new thing for electric cars, but in the future should be able to provide at least some capacity to even out load on the power networks, as well as an emergency back-up option. The average house uses about 10kWh of electricity per day, and an EV battery is typically about 60-80kWh so it's not going to run out that quickly.
Admittedly they would have to drive it a few miles to a fast charger every couple of days but this would be equally as easy as going to get petrol for small generator and a lot less noisy.
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To turn the whole original question around. If anyone in the areas affected by the power cuts had a Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq 5 they could be powering their house, (or at least a small electric heater, some lighting, their fridge freezer and TV) from the large backup battery parked on the drive. Vehicle to Load is still a fairly new thing for electric cars, but in the future should be able to provide at least some capacity to even out load on the power networks, as well as an emergency back-up option. The average house uses about 10kWh of electricity per day, and an EV battery is typically about 60-80kWh so it's not going to run out that quickly.
Admittedly they would have to drive it a few miles to a fast charger every couple of days but this would be equally as easy as going to get petrol for small generator and a lot less noisy.
Imo this should have been sorted with more urgency, had it been Kent or southern area, repairs would have been done quicker imo of course though there have been comments on radio about speed of efforts up north
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"In 2021, 11 years later, fossil fuels accounted for 40% of electricity generation with coal almost completely eliminated."
Untrue and misleading..
I will rewrite it to be accurate:
"In 2021, 11 years later, fossil fuels accounted for 40% of electricity generation with coal almost completely eliminated in the summer BUT in winter due to the lack of solar and the unpredictability of wind power, fossil fuels including coal stations brought on line accounted for over 50% of electricity generation with renewables falling as low as 20% of demand at night. This situation starts around 5pm at time of peak evening demand and continues until 8am when solar starts to have an effect."
It is unfortunate that many people including politicians don't realise what a crock of rubbish our electricity system has become. You only need review the damage Ofgem has done to the economics of power and the constant downwards revision of UK electricity capacity and margin of safety to realise we are on a pathway to disaster. The shambles of nuclear power is a classic case of muddled priorities.
Edited by madf on 06/12/2021 at 11:52
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A small petrol generator would be a good standby. It could be used to (slowly) charge an electric car enough for local use or to run some home appliances in an emergency.
While this could be seen as defeating the object of moving to renewables, I don't think that would really be the case. The generator might only be needed during long power cuts that might only occur once in 10 years. But it would be wise to use it once or twice a year anyway to ensure it still works properly.
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Well my short thread certainly generated a bit of interest. I fail to see that there was anything negative about EV except a dose of reality re the practicality of electric cars in the extreme conditions being experienced in the NE.
The firm responsible for the infrastructure have been working 24hours a day for the last 10 days to restore peoples supplies.. Think for a moment would this be possible with electric cars vans and plant ie JCBs and the like working round the clock. Authorities have also had to contend with snow drifts and ice Are there any Electric snow ploughs snow blowers etc able to deal with this and be available 24hours a day. The answer is no. And please don't say they are coming as the tech is a long way off for heavy plant.
The main question in my post WAS should we be putting all our eggs in one basket ie electrifying everything? We have had severe weather in the past but the question is not about weather alone it is about protecting our electricity supplies. Just imagine if the Grid does go down through bad weather, hacking the French connection or war even. We would be absolutely stuffed trying to move about. Where is the contingency for travel, road transport HGVs if this is where we are going?
Last but not least I am fed up with a few on here having a go at my so called stance on EV. I welcome EV if and when is becomes more practical. Please change the record and cut out the personal
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Please change the record
Hmm,
How many threads have you started in the last year or two?. And how many of those have been about anything other than negative aspects of EV`s? (two of these threads in the last few months alone have even had the same title!). Answer that question and you may get closer to why comments may be made regarding your so called stance on EV`s. You may also understand why your plea to `change the record` is actually quite funny under the circumstances.
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Please change the record
Hmm,
How many threads have you started in the last year or two?. And how many of those have been about anything other than negative aspects of EV`s? (two of these threads in the last few months alone have even had the same title!). Answer that question and you may get closer to why comments may be made regarding your so called stance on EV`s. You may also understand why your plea to `change the record` is actually quite funny under the circumstances.
Yes I see what you mean. It seems more like the end of free speech to me. EV is great lets all run out and buy one Overpriced, unproven, poor range, over priced chargers. poor charging network not as green as some would like to think. Being sold to the public by snake oil salesmen, the true pain is yet to be felt and my opinion is still in the majority, probably.
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<< EV is great lets all run out and buy one Overpriced, unproven, poor range, over priced chargers. poor charging network not as green as some would like to think. Being sold to the public by snake oil salesmen, the true pain is yet to be felt and my opinion is still in the majority, probably. >>
Like Sammy, I have no objection in principle to EVs - they seem fine, like many other innovative and impressive inventions. I'm sure ICE-powered cars seemed just the same 100 years ago, and ordinary people yearned to be able to afford one. Some who couldn't, like my father, got a motorbike instead. Sadly for him, a fairly minor accident put him in hospital for about 18 months.
My problem with EVs is the source of the battery material. Colossal holes are already being dug in the Congo and other third-world places, which owners of EVs will never need to see or think about - and demand is only just beginning. Plus the fact that the Chinese probably have a good stranglehold as well.
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Plus the fact that the Chinese probably have a good stranglehold as well.
Not so sure it will carry on though as some companies, names I cannot remember, say they cannot afford the losses on each car, as government apparently are not giving the subs they were..
if they are losing money how long can the others keep it up? the government now want to concentrate on Hydrogen trouble is its from coal which is defeating the object
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" It seems more like the end of free speech to me. EV is great lets all run out and buy one Overpriced, unproven, poor range, over priced chargers. poor charging network not as green as some would like to think. Being sold to the public by snake oil salesmen, the true pain is yet to be felt and my opinion is still in the majority, probably."
Well, that piece of sarcasm certainly continues your anti-EV comments. The trouble is, in your scepticism you may actually have a point, but you're overdoing it.
Of course this is not "the end of free speech". It's been pointed out that you often sound pretty negative in your posts and that negativity is often directed at EVs. No-one is censoring you.
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Yes I see what you mean. It seems more like the end of free speech to me. EV is great lets all run out and buy one Overpriced, unproven, poor range, over priced chargers. poor charging network not as green as some would like to think. Being sold to the public by snake oil salesmen, the true pain is yet to be felt and my opinion is still in the majority, probably.
I will itemise below all that is wrong in your diatribe.:
Err,, nothing.
But Boris is surely not a snake oil salesman. He sells peerages for £3million a time,
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It is a polarising subject and everyone is entitled to their opinion, pro or anti.
I fall somewhere between the two in that for one car households I do not think we are at the point where EV are suitable but I have no doubt that will change over the next few years with advances in technology. That more than any reason is why I wouldn't get one yet, since there will be something better in a few years. For two car households they make a lot of sense as a second car, I know a few families who run Zoes or Leafs in addition to their ICE and are very happy.
JCB are working on a hydrogen engine so that might be the future for plant machinery:
www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/technology/jcbs-hydrogen-f...d
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That more than any reason is why I wouldn't get one yet, since there will be something better in a few years.
I doubt it will change as progress is ongoing, though it wont be all mains powered cars, China is now making Hydrogen cars and using them but is experimental at the moment, though they run buses on it, I think JCB is on the right track and did say they could help others transform their fleets if asked... could even help cars move to it
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Last 24 hours - just about the middle of winter - fossil fuels 52% of generation, coal accounted for just 3% (not quite eliminated!)
Lowest total demand was at 05.30 was 25.9GW. Renewables and nuclear provided 14.0GW, fossil fuels 12.9GW - we also exported 0.9GW.
I agree there are challenges to be overcome in generation, storage, and that the levels of spare capacity the UK once enjoyed have been eroded.
But the writing is on the wall for fossil fuel generation, just as coal fires in domestic settings were replaced by central heating during the 1960-1980s.
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Last 24 hours - just about the middle of winter - fossil fuels 52% of generation, coal accounted for just 3% (not quite eliminated!)
Lowest total demand was at 05.30 was 25.9GW. Renewables and nuclear provided 14.0GW, fossil fuels 12.9GW - we also exported 0.9GW.
I agree there are challenges to be overcome in generation, storage, and that the levels of spare capacity the UK once enjoyed have been eroded.
But the writing is on the wall for fossil fuel generation, just as coal fires in domestic settings were replaced by central heating during the 1960-1980s.
From those figures, fossil fuels excluding coal accounts for 49% of generation (52-3) so the industry still has a long way to go to replace that completely with renewables / nuclear AND provide contingency for even colder weather.
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