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20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

The council of Bilbao, where I live, has decided to implement a blanket 20 km/h (approx 30 mph) speed limit across the whole town, having introduced a lower speed limit in many streets a year ago. Bilbao is roughly the same size as Cambridge or Southend (16 sq.mi), but has twice the population (345,000) and it is part of a much larger metropolitan area. 62,000 cars enter the town every working day, though public transport (buses, 4 train networks, metro and tram) is excellent, the bike lane network is good and parking is well provided, although expensive.

As a pedestrian, bus and metro user and occasional cyclist and motorist, I can see great advantages but tremendous drawbacks to a "one size fits all" project, and I suspect it is a social experiment with a bit of marketing and publicity thrown in (no other town or city of 300,000 or more residents in the world has a blanket 30 speed limit, so we will, like it or not, be firmly on the map when this starts.)

There is a strong cultural disdain here for rules and regulations, and I envisage conflicts between law-abiding motorists and the impatient, selfish drivers who want to "make progress". There are several two and three lane stretches of road in Bilbao, many well away from pedestrians, and there will be lots of zig-zagging and jockeying for position, plus the usual scramble for the green light before it changes.

Drivers used to a certain engine and road speed, driving in a particular gear ("I always drive in 3rd, don'tcha know?" - we know the type!) and covering certain A to B sections of a regular journey in the same time every day will get caught out. Locals and outsiders will react differently. People will forget. Journey times will take longer, tempers will get frayed.

Yet lives will be saved, injuries reduced and pollution *may* be reduced (the jury seems to be out on this one).

Any thoughts from backroomers living in long-term 20 zones?

Edited by Bilboman on 24/08/2020 at 14:00

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - RT

20 kph is just 12 mph - are you sure?

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

Whoops. swapped my units over there. It'll be 20 mph / 30 km/h from September onwards.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Avant

I think he means 30 km/h or approx. 20 mph.

The problem with 20 mph limits is that they're widely disregarded. If they apply only in particular areas, e.g. near schools or in streets bordering pedestrian precincts, they have a greater chance of being obeyed when it's clearly necessary to obey them.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Manatee

Or, as seems to be the case round here, if they are only in selected zones then they have a greater chance of being ignored because everybody knows they aren't enforced so they can treat it all as 30, drive at 35, and slow down a bit for known camera locations.

Damned good idea IMO. I'm guessing that "whole city" does not include ring roads and urban motorways/through routes.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - _

Last few weeks have been to Acton and Ealing for the dentist, (note to self Miracles do happen, my dentist is open) and lots of it is 20mph, and pretty well obeyed too.

However going by train tomorrow as appointment at 10.30 so will miss the flush hour.. both ways, long appointment and anaesthetic for implants.. so also better not to try to drive back.

Edited by _ORB_ on 24/08/2020 at 16:37

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - gordonbennet

Last few weeks have been to Acton and Ealing for the dentist, (note to self Miracles do happen, my dentist is open) and lots of it is 20mph, and pretty well obeyed too.

However going by train tomorrow as appointment at 10.30 so will miss the flush hour.. both ways, long appointment and anaesthetic for implants.. so also better not to try to drive back.

Wise man ORB, i had two implants done just before national house arrest was triggered, i was in no condition to drive 10 miles home let alone the journey you would have.

Mind you the train will be flying on the return journey, your wallet will be quite a bit lighter.

Edited by gordonbennet on 24/08/2020 at 18:07

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - _

Mind you the train will be flying on the return journey, your wallet will be quite a bit lighter.

Ectually (as we say in N E Ethics... the train is reasonable..£16 in £9.25 out.

It's the dentist that is going to hurt. £2000 per implant after £190 for the consultation and bit of cleaning and xray. following a failed implant a few years back which broke off, and was such pain that I nearly gave up on living. Copious amounts of opioids, tranquilizers etc later and just got over various other traumas so hoping for the best.

But after all He does have a nice taste in S class mercs, and secondly I got an appointment as he is a buddy of swmbo..'nuffsaid. (his daughter assistant is quite tasty as an assistant) and she is a dentist too.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - gordonbennet

Misunderstanding, i meant the cost of the dratted implants, mind you my two cost a fiver under £5k, but that did include having a scan done of me chops as unable to take normal moulds due to me having the most extraordinary reach reaction to anything inside the cake 'ole, dentist's nightmare me.

I did consider going to London to save a grand, but bearing in mind the faff involved re the moulds rather pleased i had it done at our usual surgery, plus if any issues following its 20 mins away.

oof, don't fancy a broken implant, you have my sympathy there, felt like he was prospecting for oil or summat given how far into the upper bone he took the impact drill...told me i'd have to have a day or two off work to recover, pah i say, haven't taken a sick or unauthorised day in almost 50 years of work not joining the sick notes at this stage.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - focussed

You would have hated my first dentist here in France, I had a crown replaced which needed a new post I reckon he had been a stonemason before training as a dentist.

Current lady dentist is very tasty in knee boots and tight jeans!

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

Amazing topic-drift here, from 20 mph limits to dental implants and then on to knee boots and tight jeans!
I'm about to take the plunge with my first implant myself (An upper 6th disintegrated on the left side a decade ago, which ended up with a barely noticeable bridge, but this time round its a 7th on the right and my dentist is loath to bridge onto a well-bedded wisdom tooth.) Recalling past experience with upper molars, I've asked about a general anaesthetic for the drilling part and there is a dentist in town who can do it, although it will likely push it beyond the normal all-in price of around €1000 for a titanium post and porcelain crown.
Returning to 20 zones, I think exemplary sentences involving excruciating dentistry are a highly underrated tool in the war against kamikaze motorists given to ridiculous turns of speed in residential areas. Do you remember the scene in Marathon Man where Laurence Olivier asked Dustin Hoffman, "IS IT SAFE?"

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Andrew-T

The problem with 20 mph limits is that they're widely disregarded. If they apply only in particular areas, e.g. near schools or in streets bordering pedestrian precincts, they have a greater chance of being obeyed when it's clearly necessary to obey them.

I agree, Avant. There's a village on the way to my indy which is 30 for about ¼ of a mile with a stretch of 20 in the middle where cars are usually parked and visibility is poor. The limits have a clear purpose and are followed AFAICS.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Gibbo_Wirral

The problem with 20 mph limits is that they're widely disregarded. If they apply only in particular areas, e.g. near schools or in streets bordering pedestrian precincts, they have a greater chance of being obeyed when it's clearly necessary to obey them.

Speaking to a driving standards instructor last week, he said that more and more people are being caught for speeding in these areas and that mobile cameras are now concentrating more on them due to complaints from people saying they're ignored.

But he may have been scaremongering.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Engineer Andy

I think if speed limits were sensible, proportionate, targeted and, where necessary, time-of-day specific (e.g. when kids are going to/coming fhome from school), and not sops to the Green lobby and/or revenue-raisers via speed cameras, then people might obey them more often.

The same goes for all 'speed calming' and 'environmental' measures, like the now infamous 'Dutch' roundabout in Cambridge. What I also find amazing is how, at a time when councils are waitling because they are 'desperate' for cash, they seem to be able to find loads of money for changes to roads.

20mph zones will only save lives if they are adhered to, which I doubt when they are applied without the consent of road users and in a blanket fashion. They certainly won't reduce pollution, because vehicles will have to drive in lower gears, which means that they will use more fuel. This is already a widely-known fact.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - barney100

Same old problem. The law abiding and careful drivers are no problem, it's the lot who belt around as they see fit with little regard for anyone else.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - _

The last few weeks, (but not today) when I have been to ealing, via Park royal, horn lane acton and ealing road, nobody has tooted or insisted otherwise that i go faster. The usual suspects speeding and ducking and diving on the A406 north circular... but in general traffic flowing well.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Engineer Andy

The last few weeks, (but not today) when I have been to ealing, via Park royal, horn lane acton and ealing road, nobody has tooted or insisted otherwise that i go faster. The usual suspects speeding and ducking and diving on the A406 north circular... but in general traffic flowing well.

Not surprising, given that London is a veritable ghost town (compared to normal) at the moment. A near neighbour went into London on the train a couple of days ago and said it was like a cold wet Sunday.

Don't forget though that it is still the school holidays (I recall when working in north London that school holiday traffic levels were less than half that of normal), so traffic will inevitably increase from next week once more kids (hopefully) go back to school and parents can (or are 'encouraged') to return to their normal place of work.

It's not just that people are reluctant to travel by public transport into London - many of the projects and jobs that depend on all these commuter jobs have dried up and thus there are far less people about - including on the roads.

Out in the sticks, things are much more 'back to normal' (roads-wise, not the trains - my local station car park is less than 10% of its normal usage), because many people commute by car (more [but not great) parking available in and around workplaces than in London, etc).

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - concrete

What most road planners/town councils fail to grasp is that most rules are obeyed by consensus. The vast majority of people wish to obey the law. This falls down is where the law is patently an Ass. If more thought was given to where and how these speed reduced zones would operate they would be more successful. If the average motorist can see a clear reason the limit is imposed then they will obey quite happily. However using speed cameras for revenue gathering combined with excruciatingly poor road planning and engineering simply serves to bring the whole process into disrepute. As long as basic law and order is by consensus then the powers that be have to confront the issue and rectify it.

In our village and surrounding roads it is a maze of muddled thinking. We go from 30 to 40 to 50 to NSL and back again in less than a mile. Of course most idiots just keep the same high speed at all times. When we ask for help to enforce the law or change the road system we are told it is all planned correctly. What an insult our intelligence. There is an accident blackspot, accepted as in the ACPO definition, where the limit is still 50 and two junctions meet, with poor visibility and businesses nearby with regular visitors. Will KCC act, will they bogroll. Even after two deaths in 9 years all we get are fob off's because as we all know, if they didn't think of it they won't give it houseroom because it makes them look as stupid as they really are. There now. I feel better now. Going to lie down in a dark room.

Cheers Concrete

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

(Searching for "like" button for Concrete's previous post ;-)
Consensus may be based on (most) drivers' natural instincts to drive at a safe speed, regardless of the actual posted limits, although of course there are always a few who "spoil it for the rest of us"!
I remember reading (I think on this blog) many years ago about the 85th percentile, which points to this natural instinct or "feel" for a particular road, which mature, experienced motorists most likely have and young, inexperienced hotheads plainly lack. If 85% of the traffic on a given stretch of road drives at or below speed "x", then speed "x" is a good "fit" for the road and the speed which most people will obey and at which fewer accidents will occur. One of many articles I found on the subject: http://www.mikeontraffic.com/strict-speed-ignoring-85th-percentile/
Unfortunately, speed enforcement tends to be a blunt instrument and the cash machines, sorry, safety cameras, that go hand in hand with speed cameras clumsily seek to effect a cure rather than eliminate the symptom.
One final thought: The Isle of Man has no speed restrictions outside urban areas, which would suggest that the island's geography (together with the 85th percentile?) is the principal "enforcer" of good driving habits. Alas, it has twice England's accident and death rate.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Andrew-T

Same old problem. The law abiding and careful drivers are no problem, it's the lot who belt around as they see fit with little regard for anyone else.

Another possible contributing factor may be the notion that it should be possible to drive at the posted limit anywhere within its bounds. There are plenty of places where that would be just foolish.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

I've often wondered about the effectiveness of the "SLOW" road sign, which I think is unique to the UK. It has that very genteel, olde worlde "I say, would you mind awfully...?" ring to it, rather like the "Thank you for driving carefully through this village" signs. They are probably less irritating than a blanket 20 sign and countless speed bumps: who knows, perhaps they do work?

Edited by Bilboman on 27/08/2020 at 13:07

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Manatee

I can't say I immediately slow down when I see a SLOW sign, it depends how fast I'm going at the time, but there's usually a reason for them which I look for.

There's wisdom in just taking the edge off your speed when you are 'pushing it'. A few minutes on the journey can mean arriving much less tired and stressed. I discovered that in 1990-91 when I did about 70,000 miles in 18 months.

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - concrete

I can't say I immediately slow down when I see a SLOW sign, it depends how fast I'm going at the time, but there's usually a reason for them which I look for.

There's wisdom in just taking the edge off your speed when you are 'pushing it'. A few minutes on the journey can mean arriving much less tired and stressed. I discovered that in 1990-91 when I did about 70,000 miles in 18 months.

I discovered that too. I was a very busy Regional Manager with several construction sites running simultaneously. What was laughingly called my region was a line form Sheffield up to the North Pole. Work was mainly in the large urban conurbations but occasionally not so. Especially in Scotland. We had sites in Glasgow and Edinburgh then also came jobs in Inverness and Aberdeen. Some weeks I felt I was chasing my tale. I requested a helicopter, which was refused, got an assistant from another region to help for a while. Thrashing up and down the A9 and the A90/96 was no fun. One day I was overtaking where possible and driving quite hard. When I got to Inverness running late I stopped at some lights. Looked in the mirror and just about every HGV I had overtaken was only a matter of yards behind me. That taught me a big lesson. Drive sensibly, shift when safe but relax and be 10 minutes late. In the scheme of things it is neither here nor there.

Cheers Concrete

20 limit in whole city - bold or misguided? - Bilboman

Some statistics are in from the first 7 weeks in our slowed-down town, the only one in the world of its size (over 300,000 population) with a blanket 20 mph limit. Makes for interesting reading.... There have been year-on-year reductions in numbers of cars entering the town, crashes, pedestrians knocked over and many more. The most dramatic figures relate to fines for red light jumpers (-43%) and air pollution: NO2 (-3%); NOX (-9%) and particulates (-11%) At the same time urban bus usage is up 11%.
It's early days, but the statistics tell the story; unlike the LTD zones in London, traffic problems are not displaced to other areas and there are no rat runs, as it's 30 km/h everywhere and people are begrudgingly getting used to the idea. Long term, it will be interesting to see if cars run less efficiently or suffer damage from all this low speed driving.