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If this is a grey area it is up to the CPS to bring a test case, not the Lincs police, I would have thought. I am sure that the driver did not decide for himself whether it was an emergency or not - he would have been given clear instructions one way or the other before he set out and I hope his supervisors are backing him if they issued such instructions to him.
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I\'ve been to the feedback section of the Lincs Police site and sent the following: -
\"I have just seen CH4 news and read the paper....I cannnot believe your intended \'action\' (and I use that term loosely as it is so ridiculous) against the Transplant Service driver.
Have you not got better things to persue? Obviously not!
This is obviously a complete waste of Court time and I sincerely hope the judge sees sense, charging Lincs Police full costs.
If the Police wish to alienate themselves from society, then this is the way to go (and the best of luck to you because you\'ll need it) - but I hope you\'ll have no need for the Transplant service in the future.....but if you do......then you might be grateful for that (Skilled and trained) driver doing his utmost to get that vital organ to you....think about it.
Yours,
Dave
South West UK\"
Absolutely unbelievable, this. I\'ll watch the news with interest tommorrow.
MG-Rover Problems? forums.mg-rover.org
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"I think that this is so ridiculous I just had to send the following email to police.authority@lincs.police.uk"
Agreed - I've done the same so one way or another, they'll get my rant.
I suggest others do the same.
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Well shoot me down in flames but anyone who drives on the A1 in Lincolnshire at that speed clearly has no concept of risk.
104 down a motorway is I believe an automatic ban, 104 down the windy poorly designed A1 with traffic crossing the central reservation, poor lighting, badly designed junctions, roundabouts and other poor souls using it is simply barmy.
If he hit me or mine I think I would be more than a little upset if you all said that it was OK.
By the way the A1(M) and A14 in Cambridgeshire are much safer roads, much newer and much better designed.
It it had been that important he would have had an escort or it would have been airlifted.
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Lets wait till we hear the other side. Despite the slightly hysterical note of some would-be emigrees, the police aren't stoopid. I agree with hxj but the story hasn't been tested in court yet. Hold on a bit! He's not yet been sentenced.....
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I think it was important or ir wouldn't have been done at all!
1. I bet there is no budget for providing policeescorts of this sort unless they are paid for by the Health Authority involved ie the police won't do it for nothing.
2. Using the helicopter would cost money - who would pay? Even that isn't fully funded; there is a charity shop in Grantham which specifically raises money to keep the Air Ambulance helicopter flying.
3. I bet the police drive down the A1 at high speed if they think it is important or necessary. I think a liver transplant is important and necessary!
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Not that long ago there was the case of the police driving instructor who lost control on a non motorway road in Lincs while doing over the ton. His passenger - another police driving instructor - was injured. He was done for dangerous driving, though clearly it was considered ok to speed without an emergency requiring hasty progress.
Seems that this case is generating a lot of support for the Ambulance driver. Apparently it was on the TV news (local Devon or national, not sure which).
104 does seem a bit reckless on a non-motorway, though I don't know the road so I might be mistaken.
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I have to say David that I'm going to wait and see the court reports before saying what I really think.
What I will say is that I would suggest a greater contribution to road safety could be made by Lincs getting farmers to clear up the mud after themselves. At the moment they won't keep that PT Cruiser very clean for long round Boston way!
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I wonder if a police escort would be provided if it was the chief constables partner on the operating table ?
interesting reading there website www.lincs.police.uk
stats for accidents attribute only 196 speeding offences as the cause of accidents out of a total of 2732.
HERE ARE THE TOP TEN PRIMARY CAUSES OF FATAL AND INJURY COLLISIONS
1. Misjudged Speed / Distance (352 collisions out of 2732)
2. Wrong Course / Position (350 collisions out of 2732)
3. Turning Right (209 collisions out of 2732)
4. Going Too Fast (196 collisions out of 2732)
5. Dog in Carriageway (153 collisions out of 2732)
6. Crossing Road Heedless of Traffic (128 collisions out of 2732)
7. Overtaking Offside (104 collisions out of 2732)
8. Injudiciously Emerging From Minor Road (74 collisions out of 2732)
9. By Stationary Vehicles (73 collisions out of 2732)
10. Bend (72 collisions out of 2732)
Top Ten Total Categories: (2732)
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if an ambulance has to have a body on board to be an ambulance, what is it when it is travelling to the scene of an accident? I would have thought that getting there quickly was more important than getting to the a&e after they have stabilised the injured person.
The next bit will be arguing "what constitutes a body"? Does a core component count?
Jonathan
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IIRC there ARE rules about what constitutes an ambulance, and they mainly revolve around easy access/low loading or something, not what is carried.
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Todays Daily Mail gives some legal background to ambulances etc. It ends with
< None of the definitions listed in the Road Traffic Acts could extend to vehicles used for the transportation of blood or human tissues>
The BBC news item in the 1st posting says
< Crown prosecutors say a vehicle carrying vital transplant organs does not qualify as an ambulance.>
I would guess that some jobsworth is applying the law when a bit of common sense would have suggested Bin It.
IMO it would appear that the law is way out of date. Paramedics in cars,on bikes and tissue/blood deliveries should all be in the same category as police and ambulances. I guess it is lots and lots of common sense to date has avoided such a case. Time for an MP to pull the finger out and get the law changed but do not hold your breath.
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As I understand it the courts aren't about common sense, but about applying the law as it stands. In a sense the police are doing what they should which is apply the law as it stands. Sadly though the result of this test case, which might lead to a change in the law, might be the end of a decent man's career.
Wouldn't it be better for the police to get some legal beagles together to reach a concensus on the law, and then press for a change if organ carriers are not allowed to speed? Or would this be seen as too political a role for the police?
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Thought this one would stir the backroom!
I concur with DVD who has dug out the relevent legislation.
I heard the report on the local news that the Ambulance driver was " stopped " twice on his journey. He was not stopped he was caught on camera twice. He has also been "charged". No he has'nt, generally you have to be arrested before you can be charged. He has been reported for summons. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story!
Now I wouldn't wish to even comment on the 'shelf life' of donor organs or wether the journey really necessitated the speed. What I would say is that the saloon car he was driving does not fall within the normal definition of an ambulance. However it might if you put an injured person in the back.
Now contrary to popular belief Process and Prosecution does not disappear into thin air on a whim, there has to be accountable reasons and justification for it doing so otherwise those dealing with such matters can leave themselves wide open to all manner of allegations. Now I know some high profile 'let offs' have been well aired on this forum but they have run their course and reasoning justified within the law even if you dont agree with it.
I am sure the legal eagles have given this one their utmost attention as it was bound to be high profile. Unfortunately it has got to run its course and legal precedent set for the future. I am sure it will work out OK however the Ambulance Officer is going to be put under pressure until it is resolved.
He has my full support and I am sure the support of all emergency service workers.
Fullchat
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I have two comments to make:
1. Speed cameras can kill.
2. This is proof (though surely it isn't needed) that we are being controlled by simple-minded control freaks whose only ability seems to be to apply rules in a narrow-minded way with an ever tightening grip.
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When will the first case be reported of a fire engine driver being done for speeding after the call he was responding to was found to be a hoax:
"Well, the call was deemed to be a non-emergency so you shouldn't have been speeding"
It's about time the pen-pushers who have never had to make life or death decisions shoved their pens where the sun don't shine and let people such as Mr Ferguson get on with their business ie saving lives without having to worry about prosecution.
And in response to those out there questionning 104mph on the A1, as far as I am aware, the A1 from Yorkshire to Cambridge is pretty much either fast, straight single or dual carriageway all the way. And at 3am, in good weather and good visibility, it is hard to see why Lincolnshire police are pursuing the case.
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I think that the legal case here will be was you state was it a life or death situation or was he just being silly. The judges will make their own minds up.
The A1 around Grantham is anything but flat and straight. Yes it is a dual carriageway but a dangerous one, nothing like for example the A43 Silverstone bypass, A34 Newbury bypass or A14, it is an old twisting road, with IMHO poor visibility and dangerous features.
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Not wishing to disagree with DVD or Fullchat but would like to point out that maybe the legislation is not totally joined up.
For example the definition of emergency vehicle in the lighting regs includes the following,
(j) a vehicle primarily used for the purposes of conveying any human tissue for transplanting or similar purposes.
by the way Leeds > Addenbrookes Cambridge = 2 hrs 48 minutes at normal speeds, ref AA.
now we just need someone to confirm how long a donated liver remains in good condition before the transplant operation is seriously jeopardised.
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All it needs is some senior Hospital person to stand up and say
"Your Honour, I deemed it a 'life or death' - and take responsibility"
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It's not only how long a liver lasts (can be up to 12 hours), but how quickly the recipient needs it.
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And possibly how much the likelihood of a successful outcome reduces with the increased delay.
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Wow! A lot of feeling on this one.
Of course, the police would know that there would be, and we can't judge the decision yet.
I guess what has happened is that there has been a feeling rather high up that there is, not abuse, but undisciplined use of the exception to the speeding laws.
I don't know for sure, but I would guess 104 in an Astra (was it?) is testing the car out a bit. Police chases etc. have been more carefully controlled in recent years, with very dangerous ones stopped.
Transplant important, sure, but there are balances here between speed to get it there and risks on the road. Was it so urgent that 85 was too slow?
My prediction for the case (I know I shouldn't). Let off, judgment states that just because can speed should speed in a more careful and assessed manner. Advisory goes round the emergency services and they all start looking at their use of speed on the road the way the police have had to.
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Shame for the testcase/scapegoat and family though. Life's a ...
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Maybe he also had a couple of Lincolnshire Police brains on board? Top condition, one owner, never been used...
That bit of A1 is ok, as I remember: couple of roundabouts but nothing a trained driver in a decent car can't deal with, surely?
O
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Seen on the web:-
A letter from Mr Ferguson's defence team was read out to the court by the clerk, asking for an adjournment.
The prosecution did not oppose the move and the case was adjourned for two weeks, for a trial date to be fixed on June 11.
But the chief constable of Lincolnshire Police, Richard Childs, defended the decision and said the case could clarify traffic law relating to vehicles carrying organs for transplant.
Mr Childs said in a statement that he and his officers had been "very upset" at some of the comments made about their position on the case, which he refused to discuss for legal reasons.
He added: "All I can do is to make it very clear that we consider saving life the most important thing we do. To suggest that this case compromises that principle is unfair, deeply hurtful and wrong."
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Some interesting reading here:- Speeding topic, but emergency services oriented.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2940180.stm
Police vehicles were involved in 27,721 accidents in 1997
Beckham's boss at Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson, was cleared of a traffic offence by explaining that severe diarrhoea and the need to reach a toilet prompted his driving on a motorway hard shoulder.
Was that after being caught??
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"Police vehicles were involved in 27,721 accidents in 1997"
I might be talking out of my rear, but that probably isn't THAT bad a "per mile" statistic, considering that patrol cars are often in use 24 hours a day, and, by definition, police drivers are often carrying out riskier driving.
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Having, sadly, had a need for such an item for close frien, I recall the events unfolded thus....The victim was with me in a conference in the North. She had a pager which went off in the middle of the conference - a liver had become available. I had the pleasure of driving her to Kings College Hosp. and left the venue and just after 6.00pm arriving at KC Hosp at just before midnight. No speed limits were broken as I felt it more important to get her there in one piece rather than lots of little ones. Her op started at 4.00am the next morning - as she was required to be hungry (IYKWIM). The Liver was already in the Hospital when we were paged. Happily this op took place in 1992 and "she" is now married with children and a very healthy brief herself. I have no information on where the organ originated, indeed it may have already have been on site. The emphasis of the Consultant who briefed me prior to departure (she was too upset) was NOT to rush, as long as we could be in London by 1.00am it for a pre-op palava. No blue lights, no excessive speed - no fuss.The impression I had that this was a very organized affair and very much doubt that the organ had to be "rushed" to them any more than the patient
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This strikes me as a bit of professional jealousy.
Just one (similar?) example:-
The duty Inspector in my local police division was recently requested to attend an incident in the adjoining division - perhaps their duty inspector was not available.
For some reason he did not wish to drive himself, and requested an area car to transport him. When he was advised that the nearest was ten minutes away, he instructed the crew to proceed on blue lights to collect him. An emergency??
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Well researched FiF. I am sure this definition will feature in the defence case. There would appear to be some contradiction on definitions.
Fullchat
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I can recall seeing a documentary of an organ being moved by Police car from, if my memory serves me correctly, the Humberside area to a hospital in the centre of London. There was a clock running on the screen.
It was transfered to the Met and the crew dashed through London and arrived with miutes to spare. All 'in car' stuff and edge of the seat viewing. You felt that you had actually driven yourself and heaved a sigh of relief at handover.
I believe the car used was a 3500 Rover so it was not too recently.
Fullchat
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It may well be that there is a legal principle to be established here, but it strikes me that if there was considerable concern in Lincs about regular and unnecessary speeding by vehicles like this then a choice word in the appropriate senior ear was the sensible way to sort it.
Regardless of the principle, this had PR disaster written all over it from the start. Surely they realised that?
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Thanks for the comment Fullchat.
I too remember that video, it occupied a full half hour programme and as you say edge of the seat.
IIRC the destination was somewhere on Cromwell Road.
Also did you remember that there was a backup 3500 Rover in case of problems and one of the bike outriders actually blew up his engine, Norton Wankel as I recall.
Wonderful thing human memory isn't it.
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Yep its all coming back. Norton Wankels thats around 1983/1984 - remember them on the Miners Strike S.Yorks and Humberside had em.
Anyone got a copy of the tape? I am sure the defence would love it!
Fullchat
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IIRC it featured on the BBC '999' programme and took up an entire episode. I think the organ was brought by plane to Stanstead (Don't think City airport was operating then) and had to be taken off the airport by the local boys and was transferred to Met cars at a roundabout. They took off down the M11 which I think was two laned at that stretch, and the thought was that they would make best time here giving them some slack for the run through London.
However, even with blues and twos going a lorry pulled out in front of them, took an age to overtake and pull back in, and the commentary revealed those on board were a "little disgruntled" with that particular driver. Just goes to show that siren/lights might help in road clearance but doesnt make you invulnerable.
Definitely gripping stuff though. The run through London in coordination with motorcycle outriders, and points people at junctions was almost unbelievable. Probably even better if you actually knew the streets they were going down.
As for use in the case I think it might be used by both sides:
"Here's a previous example of an organ run...."
"Yes, but look at all the escorts it's been given...."
"But that was only within London etc. etc..."
As another point I wonder why the Defense asked for an adjournment - I'd have thought the guy might have wanted to get it over an done with, but of course that presumes him getting off is just a formality, and there are much bigger issues involved here - probably why I'm not a lawyer!
Chris TD
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I think the driver's licence and job are at stake here so he has got to get a good defence against the massed intransigence of Lincs Plod and the CPS! Good luck from me!
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Yes I thought instantly of the TV programme, one of the best bits of TV I have ever seen. The fact that sundry lorries and German Polo drivers did not stop the body part arriving on time in the Museum area of SW London said to me "they will now have proof that Stansted Airport is effectively in London cos you can get there in half an hour!"
which has of course happened...
Why they did not send the part to London Airport (Heathrow) is beyond me!
Should the medics always have a racing driver with them so the PCs let him off (I am thinking Montoya and France)...
pat
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In Germany you can "become" an ambulance, and speed, by waving a white flag out of your vehicle. My uncle once did this there, and was joined by a helpful motorcycle policeman who, having ascertained the validity of the situation, quickly escorted him to the hospital they were travelling to.
Definition of an ambulance: What about vehicles travelling to an accident. They are ambulances when travelling TO the accident empty as much as when travelling FROM the accident with a victim.
Any vehicle travelling swiftly in order to minister to a person in need of such action ought to pass as an ambulance.
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Oh dear - a persistent offender:-
tinyurl.com/d50o
An ambulance driver who is being prosecuted for travelling at more than 100mph while delivering a life-saving transplant organ has admitted breaking the speed limit again since receiving his summons. Mike Ferguson, 56, was thanking the public for the \"incredible\" support he has received since the summons, when he revealed he had again broken the law while taking a liver from Middlesbrough to Leeds last Saturday.
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Question for Taxi Driver Dave and any other cabbies.
Round here some of the local taxi firms are on contract to carry tissue. Some of these runs are allegedly for transplants, but made at normal taxi speeds, whatever that means.
As a slight aside one driver taking me to the airport was a bit put out that they day before he had done such a run the day before. On enquiring at the destination what he was carrying alarmed to be told a human head.
As the conversation progressed we developed a scenario where he had been involved in an accident, the coolbox thingy had broken open, and the rescue services were running round in circles looking for the rest of the unfortunate.
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Blimey, just had a reply, a couple of weeks later, with regards the email I sent off to lincs police.
Here it is:
PLEASE NOTE:
This email has originated from outside the confines of the Lincolnshire Police Network. This message and any attachments have been scanned for viruses.
However please be cautious when opening attachments, as new viruses (and methods for their execution) are being created all the time.
Be particularly cautious of attachments ending with .EXE.
Please make sure Macro Virus Detection is enabled in your Microsoft Office Applications.
If in doubt, please seek advice from the IT Helpdesk on ext. 8765, BEFORE opening the attachments.
#######################################################
Dear Mr Scott
Thank you for your e-mail of 27 May.
I regret that I am unable to comment on a matter which is currently due
before the courts but I can assure you that a number of procedural
safeguards have to be complied with if a police officer is to pass through a
s************ over the relevant speed limit.
Dictated by Jonathan Goolden, Clerk to the Police Authority
and sent by Margaret Burkhill on his behalf
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I got the same bulk email reply too!
Well, it's certainly better than no reply at all!
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I admit to not reading all of the previous posts and apologise in advance if this has already been discussed.
Do we know what driving standard the ambulance driver had been trained to? Many people presume wrongly that an emergency occupation automatically makes the person an 'emergency' or advanced driver. This isn't necessarily so. If he is not an advanced driver then I believe this should impact on the way he is dealt with.
He should, like all of us, drive to arrive!
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Yes, he should "drive to arrive with the organ"
Oh gawd what have I said?
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This whole fiasco nicely illustrates the nonsense that is the application of rules relating to exceeding the limit.
Your better off being a peadophile. You would have a steady stream of people appointed to advise you and look after your rights and interests. The judge would very carefully listen to all the evidence and would be sure to take into account the fact that you have suffered enough. If you are unlucky enough to get locked up it won't be for very long and even if you openly brag about being a total monster who can't wait to get back outside the school gates you will have another steady stream of people willing to protect your identity and make sure you are comfortable. Murder somebody and you will also have a steady stream of women writing in wanting to marry you.
In any case you probably won't get caught because there are only about a dozen or so police in the whole country out there looking for you - and they don't have any real resources so your probably pretty sfae.
On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend you exceed the limit by 6 or 7 miles per hour. There are literally thousands - and I mean thousands and thousands - of Police out there waiting for you if you do that. And if you do exceed that limit, when you get caught - and that is 'when' not 'if' - don't think you will be able to say; sorry guv but I'm a hard working, law abiding decent person with a fanmily to look after. And don't think you will be able to say; but the road was very clear Sir and I don't think I was causing any real hazard or danger - and I'm a very good driver that has never had an accident or been caught exceeding the limit before Sir.
No no no. You see, exceeding the limit is an absolute crime. 1 mph or 25 mph - it doesn't matter and the circumstances don't matter. Your kind are a pest and a menace and you must be severely dealt with. No discussion. No mercy.
And women won't be writing in to marry you.
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What utter rubbish. There are thousands--and I mean thousands and thousands--of drivers in this country with no points on their licences. At all. Nul points. It's not difficult to do: buckle seatbelt, engage brain, start engine. In that order. But I do agree with you I wouldn't recommend exceeding the speed limit by 6 or 7 miles an hour either. Why would you want to do that anyway?
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Bravo jeds could'nt agree more. But there aren't thousands of police waiting to trap you out there, there are thousands of speed cameras, the problem with these is they don't catch the drunk-driver, the loony overtaker, the no tax, no insurance, the no mot brigade, but whoe betide you if you wander over the speed limit.
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Mostly true, but not many speeding drivers end up on Rule 43 playing hide the soap with a 7 foot tall scroat in the prison showers...
O
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