Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service

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Mon 1 Oct 2018 15:32
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - sam page

I recently booked my Seat Ibiza 1.2 tsi into a garage for a mot and full service.

The car passed the mot and had the service done, I then received a phone call saying that the car isn’t starting.

The garage is quick to say it’s just a coincidence and it’s no bodies fault.

After further research it appears that these cars are prone to the timing chain slipping if it’s not considered during an oil change.

The garage have agreed to fit a new timing chain free of charge however we’re now being told that car still isn’t starting due to valve damage.

They’re now saying that this is going to be a big job and cost a lot of money.

I’ve pointed out to them that traders have a responsibility of care under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and they’re liable for the costs.

The car is literally in the middle of their garage and hasn’t moved since the service.

Any advice?

Do they need to pay the full cost of the repairs?

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Mon 1 Oct 2018 17:53
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - KJP 123

I could not understand how an oil change could affect the timing so I looked it up.

The timing chain tensioner is hydraulic and in an oil change it can lose its oil and the chain goes slack.

It does not happen always even with a hot oil change but would seem less likely with a cold one. I don’t know if VAG have advice on this and whether it was followed. That would seem relevant.

Sometimes things happen; bolts and glow plugs break off. It was going to happen whoever did the work.

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Mon 1 Oct 2018 20:35
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - bathtub tom

I could not understand how an oil change could affect the timing so I looked it up.The timing chain tensioner is hydraulic and in an oil change it can lose its oil and the chain goes slack.

I don't see how an oil change could affect a hydraulic tensioner any more than turning the engine off for several hours, like overnight.

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Mon 1 Oct 2018 20:28
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - SLO76
These engines are notorious for chain failure, in fact VAG switched back to a belt as they were so weak. It’s unlikely the garage caused it but maybe it’s luck for you that it happened on their watch. I’m confused as to why they’d fit another chain when any mechanic with half an ounce on understanding would know it’s highly likely the engine is a write-off. It’s an interference engine meaning the valves and pistons will come together if the chain fails.

I’m not sure how you go about proving the garage caused this as it could’ve been on the cards before they touched it. It certainly wasn’t caused by a service. It’s possible whoever has been servicing it previously has been using the wrong oil which is very likely but you’d need to find out what was used and possibly take action against them. I doubt you’d succeed though and I’m afraid you’ll struggle with this garage too. Older cars go wrong and sometimes it happens when in the hands of someone else. Rather unfortunate for them but I can’t see how you’d prove it was their fault.

Edited by SLO76 on 01/10/2018 at 20:29

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 00:27
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - focussed

"Rather unfortunate for them but I can’t see how you’d prove it was their fault"

How about " It was a runner before you serviced it - now it's a scrapper"

What more proof do you need?

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 07:19
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - SLO76

"Rather unfortunate for them but I can’t see how you’d prove it was their fault"

How about " It was a runner before you serviced it - now it's a scrapper"

What more proof do you need?

Servicing it won’t cause timing chain failure. Using the wrong oil could but it would take time, it wouldn’t happen instantly like this. The chain was about to fail and it was unfortunate for the garage that it happened when they had it.
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Tue 2 Oct 2018 08:06
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - Bromptonaut

"Rather unfortunate for them but I can’t see how you’d prove it was their fault"

How about " It was a runner before you serviced it - now it's a scrapper"

What more proof do you need?

Correlation is not causation.

You'd need to show some negligent act or omission.

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 11:52
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - focussed

I don't think the garage would get away with that in a small claims court, never mind lots of clever words - judges in small claims courts don't like clever legalese, they award on the balance of probabilities.

If as has been said, these engines are notorious for chain failure, perhaps the garage should have warned the customer or even refused to service the car?

When I was running an engine workshop there were certain older engines that we would refuse to service or overhaul because they were known to have inherent faults that had never been addressed by the manufacturer and would always cause comebacks and grief no matter how carefully the work was carried out.

Edited by focussed on 02/10/2018 at 12:01

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 14:06
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - Bromptonaut

I don't think the garage would get away with that in a small claims court, never mind lots of clever words - judges in small claims courts don't like clever legalese, they award on the balance of probabilities.

It's up to the claimant to prove his case. Perhaps there's some process that should be followed when changing oil in this engine that's intended to safeguard the timing gear. If it can be shown, on balance of probability, that the garage failed to do so OP may be home and dry.

I don't think 'it went in working and failed on the premises' will cut the mustard on its own.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 02/10/2018 at 14:37

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 20:42
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - KJP 123

I wrote: I could not understand how an oil change could affect the timing so I looked it up. The timing chain tensioner is hydraulic and in an oil change it can lose its oil and the chain goes slack.

bathtub tom replied: I don't see how an oil change could affect a hydraulic tensioner any more than turning the engine off for several hours, like overnight.

That makes sense, I should have spotted that, but here is something I found from brum, here in January 2016.

“4. The most contributory factor in my opinion is the arrangement of the oil filter. On the tsi this is a screw on cannister type that sits on the top of the engine, the base of the cannister uppermost. This design potentially gives the problem that if you unscrew it, it would pour its contents over the engine. However, some bright spark decided to design in a drain back valve located in the housing which opens when you unscrew it to release the oil to sump. Clever these Germans eh? Except this drain back valve is a crap design, and if the filter is under or overtightened, it doesnt seal properly, and it leaks anyway. So when the engine is switched off, the oil filter drains down slowly, and being a VW design the camchain hydraulic tensioner releases. So every cold start is like the oil has been drained.

Cold start, tensioner backed off, chain stretched, sprockets worn, empty oil filter, no oil pressure for 3 or 4 seconds. I wonder what might go wrong?”

Now, if I am reading this correctly, tensioner relies on oil in filter. After an oil change there is no oil in filter, hence the problem. At least later tensioners seem to have one-way valves but not 100% reliable so you might or might not be lucky. That seems to be an explanation at least.

As to responsibility? Should filter be pre-filled with oil, should tensioner be checked before starting engine or is it just bad luck if tensioner has drained?

I think that ECU has a sensor that won’t allow engine to start when timing is too far out but it cranks over, doing the damage, before this triggers.

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Tue 2 Oct 2018 21:10
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - bathtub tom
The most contributory factor in my opinion is the arrangement of the oil filter. On the tsi this is a screw on cannister type that sits on the top of the engine, the base of the cannister uppermost. This design potentially gives the problem that if you unscrew it, it would pour its contents over the engine. However, some bright spark decided to design in a drain back valve located in the housing which opens when you unscrew it to release the oil to sump. Clever these Germans eh? Except this drain back valve is a crap design, and if the filter is under or overtightened, it doesnt seal properly, and it leaks anyway. So when the engine is switched off, the oil filter drains down slowly, and being a VW design the camchain hydraulic tensioner releases. So every cold start is like the oil has been drained.

I had this type of oil filter on a BMC 'B' type engine. BMC had changed the design from a 'pendant' to a 'standing' filter, which the filter aftermarket suppliers seemed unaware of. It meant when you changed the oil filter, the contents deposited themselves over everything below!

I suffered a lack of oil pressure for some time each morning. I eventually diagnosed this by unscrewing the oil filter one morning before starting and realising it was empty.

Local BMC dealer told me to bring it in as it was the big ends and they'll change them!

Speaking to an oil filter manufacturer, they weren't aware of the change and directed me to a filter that had an internal non-return valve.

I understand this cost H******** a large sum of money to replace damaged engines as their application charts were wrong.

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Sat 6 Oct 2018 23:10
Car won't start in the garage after MOT & Service - Big John

On these engines it is easy to misfit the oil filter - it has an inbuilt valve to stop oil draining back overnight and another that releases when loosening the filter during the service allowing the oil to drain back to the sump. If a new filter is fitted and overtightened it prematurely triggers the drain back valve which significantly drops the oil pressure. This causes predictable results with an oil pressurised timing chain tensioner especially if worn.

It might be that because you still had an earlier version of the chain and tensioner (there are revisions and improvements) and when you lacked oil pressure during the time the oil filter was being filled after the service the chain tension released potentially causing the chain to jump.

This is made much worse if the engine is ever turned backwards at all as the full forces required to turn the cam shaft/high pressure fuel pump are also applied back onto the timing chain tensioner. This includes parking on a hill with the car in a gear that would turn the engine backwards if it rolls slightly downhill against the engine (eg releasing footbrake after handbrake applied!) - again much worse when worn or an old version.

Edited by Big John on 06/10/2018 at 23:29

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