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If I'm only doing say 50-80 miles per week on average when doing the normal run of the mill trips, then presumably there would be minimal particulate build up anyway in a diesel?
Therefore the need to give the engine a good workout for 15-30 minutes(?) would probably only be needed once every 3-4 weeks or so?
Worst case, I'm assuming that the indicator would tell me if there was a need for a more immediate cleanse in any case.
It might be much of a muchness this decision (I'm going round in circles a bit!), as although the diesel has the better torque, the reality is 75%+ of my normal mileage will be cutting about locally within low mileage areas and stuck in traffic. Where torque probably won't matter much or even be noticed.
The other unknown is how harshly diesels might be treated in the next few years, given I do plan to keep the car for a good 5+ years, maybe longer.
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Every DPF is different, and the design seems to be the main cause of problems rather than solely the distance or type of use.
Supposedly early designs had them far from the engine and only regenerated when absolutely chock full of particulates, so if they tried to regenerate and you weren't on a motorway you were going to get problems. Newer designs (supposedly) tend to be build close to or at the engine itself, getting hotter more quickly and easily so burning passively and they try to regenerate earlier than effectively 'full'.
If you do 5k per annum, all on the motorway, you're unlikely to have trouble. Likewise if do 15k a year in stop start short journeys where the engine doesn't heat up you'll clog it.
I have worried about this after buying my diesel back in 2014, but I just make sure once a tankful at least I give it a chance to regenerate on a 50mph+ road for at least a half hour.
In reality as long as they get that once or twice a tank and the journeys aren't always 1/2 a mile up the road, you'll probably be fine. I also use v power diesel and have had (fingers crossed) not a hint of trouble in mixed use over 35k and counting.
People seem obsessed with DPFs needing 1m miles a year and they don't. Whether you need a diesel for low mileage though, that's another story as you'll not recoup the financial cost over petrol with low annual mileage.
Edited by Meteiro on 20/06/2018 at 18:10
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They seem to think the Tucson DPF is designed in such a way that it doesn't require regular regeneration or cleaning and low mileage should be less of an issue
All DPF's require regenerations, end of story. All DPF's are exactly the same and made by a few specialist companies. The manufacturer/supplier of engine management hardware/software dictate how the DPF is maintained and this differs between makes.
We had a Kia and I would guess that since they are the same company and use the same parts (most excepting body panels are marked Kia Hyundai) I would expect them to work in exactly the same way. Our Kia was designed to do a regen every 250 miles regardless of use. On a 430 miles trip to Scotland it would carry out 2 regens if one was due within the first 160 miles, if it did not require a regen until after 160 miles it would only do one regen. In urban use it did a regen every 250 miles. On the motorway a regen took approx 20 miles at 60 mph in 6th gear (the speed recomended by Kia as being the most efficient), on urban roads they took longer. Interupt a regen before it completed and unlike some makes which commence the regen when you start your next journey you had no real idea when it would start again but I was told by the dealer tha after 3 interupted regens the engine light would illuminate and require a forced regen and reset which would be chargeable.
We had the car 5 years and did 40,000 miles and never had an issue but we learned to detect a regen and avoided stopping mid regen unless it was totally unavoidable.
But since there are many excellent modern turbo petrols that have the driving charisteristcs of a torquey diesel, excellent performance and almost diesel like mpg we don't buy diesels any longer.
Its too much of a risk unless you are doing well over 15,000 miles a year.
As for the above comment
I have worried about this after buying my diesel back in 2014, but I just make sure once a tankful at least I give it a chance to regenerate on a 50mph+ road for at least a half hour.
it does not work like that. If the car is not due a regen driving at 50 mph will not trigger one, the ECU decides when and not the driver. Believe it or not the car does not have a clue where it is or what the driving is trying to do in it. All the above poster is doing is wasting expensive fuel.
Edited by skidpan on 20/06/2018 at 18:57
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Skidpan, I should clarify I do several 50mph+ runs regardless per tank, and none unnecessarily specifically to regen the DPF, so no wasted fuel on my part. What I've outlined above is from the handbook and a regen has always triggered at the end of a tank's worth of driving, when next on a motorway, if I haven't had a regen in circa 400 miles. Maybe it has just worked out that way, maybe not.
Having had two DPF equipped cars (one to over 80k and one to 35k and counting) I've never had an issue regardless of type of driving, maybe I'm lucky, maybe they aren't half as impossible to manage as people would have you believe (I know the regen signs on my current car and try to let it finish).
All that said, this will be my last diesel for exactly the reasons you outlined. My wife's diesel already changed for a 1.2 auto 308 (which is brilliant) and mine will go the same way when the time comes.
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Scott - as others have said, each DPF on each car/make seems to react differently, but I would say that the 'amount' of driving (low mileage) will count against it - its not the total miles you need to worry about, but the length and frequency of each trip:
1. Short trips from cold only are the worst for DPFs;
2. Mainly short trips from cold with the occasional (once a forthnight) longer, higher-speed trip are the next worse, as you cannot guarantee that the DPF will automatically regen (active) during the longer journey, though the higher revs in 4th or above (over 40/50mph) will help to passively regen the DPF, meaning it won't need an active regen as often.
Many people advocate (including Honest John in his weekly 'agony' column) checking when you arrive (don't switch off the engine) at your destination that the DPF isn't actively regenerating by getting a sniff of the underside by the driver's door, and if it smells like burning, then its actively regenning and you shouldn't turn the engine off, and you should go out for a 15-20 min drive as per the longer, higher speed journey to ensure the regen completes ok.
3. As 2 but the longer trip is at least once a week. Essentially you are increasing the frequency of passive regens and the likelihood of an active one happening during the longer trip. Still not assured that this will work over the short or longer term, especially if you just switch the car off when you get to your destination and don't bother sniffing for the burning smell indicating an active regen is taking place.
Unfortunately, this can mean inconvenience if you follow the good advice, but it'll save the hassle and expense of repeated forced regens at the dealership and/or a replacement DPF (which may not last long if you're REALLY unlucky). Some people this works fine, others it does - often pure luck or small differences in usage patterns.
4. If, like me, you do a low annual mileage but almost all journeys are 10+ miles each way, mainly on 60mph+ roads, then a diesel can be an option, especially if you live in a rural area or tow regularly and so really appreciate the extra torque (especially if it comes with a 4x4 system). Its still more expensive when the higher purchase price is offset by lower fuel costs, even more so if you get a decent (reliable) turbo petrol which is good on mpg as well.
I think your situation falls into the second category, and as such, I'd be VERY wary of going for a diesel unless you can put up with the annoyance of having to drive around for another 15-30 mins if its actively regnerating (especially if that coincides with going to work/some important event/meeting).
As others have said, you might to look for a turbo-petrol alternative, e.g. the current Suzuki Vitara 1.4T or something appropriate from the VAG stable. Even the Mazda CX-5 2.0 petrol (non-turbo) is worth a look, even if it can't match the nippyness and mpg of the TSi type engines, especially as you want a manual and the Mazda handles and rides well (just avoid the low profile tyred Sport models).
Do you really need a large SUV/offroader anyway? Some smaller cars make better use of their size for useful storage/passeneger space, so don't rule them out either. What are your budgetary constraints?
Bear in mind that, as before, higher fuel costs for petrol engines can easily offset the higher purchase price of a diesel, even if still they are worth more when selling if they are under 5 years old. Petrol engined cars are also generally more reliable, especially when your driving pattern is in the first two groups above, which can make a HUGE financial difference, especially if you intend to keep the car once its warranty expires.
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Thanks very much for everyone's thoughts on this. Some really good advice and suggestions!
At the end of the day it all comes down to compromising on something on my wish list. Ideally I'd want a car that meets the following criteria
- 1) Petrol based on the type of driving I'll do and the points listed above. It probably will be more type 1. or 2. from the examples above (short local trips on slower roads with occasional longer trips say every 2-3 weeks
- 2) Nearly new car with limited wear and tear
- 3) Reliable car/make with a good warranty.
- 4) Large boot and rear passenger space for 2 young kids with 1-2 buggies etc
- 5) High up driving position is preferred. I have test driven 2 petrol cars, the Tucson and Honda Civic. I struggled with visibility on the Civic especially side and rear blind spots.
- 6) Budget of £16-18k. I could go higher but I would find it hard to justify given how infrequently we will use the car.
- 7) Something torquey.
From all the alternatives suggested I would need to compromise on at least one of the above. For example the Viatra is probably just a bit too small in comparison to say the Tucson. I also prefer the interior look of the Tucson as well.
With the petrol Tucson I would obviously need to compromise on the torque but it would tick all the other boxes above. I have test driven the petrol Tucson a coupe of times on motorway and city roads and I didn't find the power an issue or noticeable. Although test drives are so short it maybe would become more apparent later on.
Given this and the fact most of my driving will be on local, slower roads on flat ground. I'm thinking that the petrol Tucson us still the best car for my needs.
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- 2) Nearly new car with limited wear and tear
- 3) Reliable car/make with a good warranty.
Just to clarify these 2 points:
- 2) Nearly new or used (ideally less than 10k miles) car with limited wear and tear
- 3) Reliable car/make with a good warranty. As we plan to keep the car for a long time, at least 5-7 years.
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1) Petrol based on the type of driving I
- 2) Nearly new car with limited wear and tear
- 3) Reliable car/make with a good warranty.
- 4) Large boot and rear passenger space for 2 young kids with 1-2 buggies etc
- 5) High up driving position is preferred.
- 6) Budget of £16-18k. I could go higher but I would find it hard to justify given how infrequently we will use the car.
- 7) Something torquey.
Simple answer, Kia Ceed Sportswagen TGD-i 120 PS.
Its petrol, reliable with a 7 year warranty, has a big boot, the driving position is higher than most similar cars (but its not an MPV), its reasonably torquey (not as good as a diesel but way better than the 1.6 GDi in the Tucson). The best news is brokers list them for just over £17000 brand new.
We had a Ceed Spotswagen and it was great for 5 years, why don't we drive one now, the wife could not get comfortable in the driving seat of the current model.
We have a Skoda Superb 14 TSi 150 PS. It also ticks all the above boxes (except the warranty, its only 3 years) and its a fair bit longer. Can be had for just over £16000 brand new from brokers (if you take out the PCP and pay off within 14 days).
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1) Petrol based on the type of driving I
- 2) Nearly new car with limited wear and tear
- 3) Reliable car/make with a good warranty.
- 4) Large boot and rear passenger space for 2 young kids with 1-2 buggies etc
- 5) High up driving position is preferred.
- 6) Budget of £16-18k. I could go higher but I would find it hard to justify given how infrequently we will use the car.
- 7) Something torquey.
Simple answer, Kia Ceed Sportswagen TGD-i 120 PS.
Its petrol, reliable with a 7 year warranty, has a big boot, the driving position is higher than most similar cars (but its not an MPV), its reasonably torquey (not as good as a diesel but way better than the 1.6 GDi in the Tucson). The best news is brokers list them for just over £17000 brand new.
The Kia Ceed boot is 108 litres smaller than the Tucson and similar size to the Vitata
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Simple answer, Kia Ceed Sportswagen TGD-i 120 PS.
Its petrol, reliable with a 7 year warranty, has a big boot, the driving position is higher than most similar cars (but its not an MPV), its reasonably torquey (not as good as a diesel but way better than the 1.6 GDi in the Tucson). The best news is brokers list them for just over £17000 brand new.
The Kia Ceed boot is 108 litres smaller than the Tucson and similar size to the Vitata
Skidpan is speaking about the Kia Ceed Sportswagen. The Sportswagen is the estate version. The estate has a larger boot than the Tuscan, irrespective of whether the rear seats are up or down.
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I have a 2017, 1.7 diesel DCT Tuscon. It isn't the most dynamic car I have owned but its fine as a motorway cruiser which is what I mainly us it for. I will keep it for 3 years and will put 75,000 miles on it so the 5 year / 100,000 mile warranty is useful.
Re performance - its easily improved by flicking the sports mode button. It makes a noticeable difference and little if any impact on fuel consumption.
The cars safety features came in to its own today. The forward collision system bleeps occasionally, usually when a parked car has its boot stuck out in to the road, but does nothing more.
Today, on a fast large roundabout over a motorway a car pulled out right in front of me. He must have been doing 80 on the up ramp and had no intension of stopping. The system stopped my car very smoothly before I had time to fully react and IMHO really prevented a crash!
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The Skoda Superb looks like a good contender if I can figure out which trim options to consider. There are so many options!
It will push my budget up as well and I'm not sure I like its big rear end. We'd definitely need a reversing camera to be included if going for a Superb..
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The Skoda Superb looks like a good contender if I can figure out which trim options to consider. There are so many options!
It will push my budget up as well and I'm not sure I like its big rear end. We'd definitely need a reversing camera to be included if going for a Superb..
Its quite simple.
The only engine you need to consider is the 1.4 TSi 150 PS, it may be the 1.5 TSi 150 PS now since its replacing the 1.4 for the new emmisions rules.
The SE trim includes everything most buyers would probably need and want. The only options we specifed were metallic paint, dark rear tints, rear screen wiper (its a £0.00 cost option but hidden on the list) and the fold flat front passenger seat. Its a £100 option but means 3m lengths of timber fit, handy when you are DIYing. Has saved me a fortune in delivery costs and its also meant that I did not need an expensive towbar to use the trailer for long timbers.
We don't have a reversing camera, cannot see the point. The Superb has rear parking sensors as standard and in addition to the beeps the radio display shows where obstacles are. Never had an issue. If in doubt get out and look or get the other half to look for you.
Using Carfile.net www.carfile.net/buy-your-car/skoda/superb_hatchbac...l (we have used them 3 times in 5 years now) you would pay £17051.50 after discounts and contributions. Their Skoda dealer is very knowledgeable, no pressure to buy pointless kit.
Many on the Skoda forum will tell you that 150 PS is insufficient but then they complain that all they get in the more powerful versions is wheelspin. having had 2 cars with the 1.4 TSi I can tell you that I have not found the engine wanting for power in any circumstance and its economy is outstanding. 55mpg approx on a 1000 mile holiday trip from a petrol is better than just about every diesel we owned.
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What I find amazing is how many people seemingly dismiss the large booted hatches, saloons and especially estates like the Octavia, Superb, prev. gen Civic and a whole raft of estates (or knwon by their posh names), many of which are far cheaper AND, because they are lower and more streamlined, far better on the mpg/handling front than MPVs and larger SUVs, which now attract a premium price.
Often these cars, as has been said, have a larger boot than the MPVs/SUVs, and when shod with all season tyres (or if you have storage space and need them, winter/summer tyre sets) are fine for rural use; some even have 4x4 systems available on some models if you want to drive on the muddy bit more often. Unless you live on a farm, then a proper 4x4 offroader isn't really required.
The other benefit is these cars (compared to larger MPVs/SUVs) are normally far cheaper to insure, service and tax, and parts are easier to come by (and are often much cheaper) as they are not that different to the normal popular models.
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