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Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

Or Rounding Off the Usual Suspects

Here's a trick that I probably can't try here but might be possible elsewhere.

Back in The Yook I had an old, traditional heavy soldering bit that I always thought would be useful for "surgically" applying heat to the usual suspects, the usual suspects here being the stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws that Japanese motorcycles are infested with.

But I didn't have a Japanese motorcycle then, so I never tried it.

This kind of thing.

[img]josephjenkins.com/store/images/C/Johnson_hand_copp...g[/img]

josephjenkins.com/store/images/C/Johnson_hand_copp...g

Unlikely I'll find one here, but if anyone tries it, I'd be interested to know how it works out.

The suspects in the current case are a couple of stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws holding the master-cylinder reservoir cover on a Yamaha RZR.

These little F****ers

[url=www.servimg.com/view/18149521/224][img]i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/14/95/21/th/img_6929.jpg[/img][/url]

IF I get them out I'll put polythene or PTFE round the replacements which will hopefully stop them doing it again, but getting them out is the trick.

I have a couple of hit-it-with-a-hammer impact drivers, one of which has sometimes worked in the past, but It was the work of a moment this time to chew up these screws with it.

[url=www.servimg.com/view/18149521/223][img]i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/14/95/21/th/img_6928.jpg[/img][/url]

Perhaps my technique isn't correct. I've only used it with a club hammer, so possibly a dead blow hammer (which are available locally) would work better .

Although impact drivers are readily available here, a decent range of cross-head bits for them isn't. They come with maybe two in the box, and I've been able to buy a few loose, but no set.

(I do have a pretty comprehensive set of splined bits, which is no use to me since the car I got it for is gone.)

Ill-fitting bits are therefore a hazard, but I "auditioned" all my bits before hitting anything this time, and the one picked for the role seemed to fit pretty well.

I wonder if an electric impact wrench gizmo like this would be better?

goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21305080186330

goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21404016453583

[img]img.ruten.com.tw/u1/photo/k/5/k57931121/671abb6a-c...g[/img]

Probably too late for these little FASTNers, though, so it looks like drilling and screw extractors, though I don't recall any successes with anything that small.

Best case, I see me in the near future attempting to explain that I want reversed drill bits to a Taiwanese tool store owners daughter.

I'm screwed.

Edited by edlithgow on 27/08/2016 at 05:32

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - gordonbennet

The best tool i've ever found for shifting these little horrors is the good old impact driver as picced above, the one you strike with a hammer, the only thing thats guarantees to shift those little screws that hold brake discs/drums in place, luckily i still have the original bits that came with mine some 30 odd years ago, not made of cheese in some overseas sweat shop.

In recent years in lorry trim and lights world they have almost entriely moved away from cross head screws and instead use similar sized torx screws, unless some clot tries mashing these up with the wrong tool entirely they almost always come undone without the slightest problem, something that was broke and needed fixing.

I suppose a bit of careful reseach and you could source a large box of these torx screws in the three or four sizes most popularly used for philips screws and replace them with torx before they become a seized in issue.

As always, a drop of coppaslip or similar on the thread and head seat where subject to water ingress works wonders.

I have a quite substantial cordless electric impact driver, which does make short work of wheel changing, but where it comes in most useful is when undoing stubborn bolts where the tapping/hammer action sees the thing more likely to undo than sheer off...it would be much too heavy in action to use on a philips screw, i suppose an infinitely variable speed hand drill could be useful becuase you could put your full weight into forcing the bit straight into the cross head where with a hand tool you can't put full weight in and turn at the same time without coming off dead centre.

If anyone knows where to buy proper bits made not of cheese it would be appreciated.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - Wackyracer

If anyone knows where to buy proper bits made not of cheese it would be appreciated.

I always buy Wiha or Wera bits. Not the cheapest but, they can suffer the abuse my father gives them by allowing them to cam out all the time.

My own observations have been that most people use the wrong bits for Phillips, pozi or JIS screws. When I pointed out to a plumber that he was using a pozi bit with Phillips screws I was met with "it's the same" which just about sums it up for my opinion of tradesmen.

I have 3 impact drivers, a bosch 14.4v with 1/4" hex drive suitable for screws and smaller bolts, a 1/2" square drive 220nm unit and a 1/2" Sq drive with well over 440nm.

The little Bosch impact driver would be ideal for the OP's problem (prior to destroying the screw heads)

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - gordonbennet

I always buy Wiha or Wera bits. Not the cheapest but, they can suffer the abuse my father gives them by allowing them to cam out all the time.

Thanks you WR, brands noted for perusal soonest.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - hardway

Before drilling them get some valve grinding paste,

Should be availiable anywhere.

dip your chosen driver in to the course paste and fill the screw head with same,

now gently but firmly tap the tool into the screw.

The paste helps with "Cam out" when twisting.

I find a longer driver works best,

twist gently while tapping the end with a hammer.

Of course there are left handed drill/screw out bit sets,

The "trend pro grabit" I have used to good effect but if they go down to the size you need?

And yeah it's usually Yams,

If you can source a new cap I have resorted to hacksawing round the screws and destroying the cap.

Mole grips can grab the remains.

But remember the reason this happens is steel screws int alloy body thread.

Still might need a torch to heat the screw head.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - Simon

You do know that Japanese cross head set screws (as found in Japanese motorcycle brake master cylinders) are designed for a special JIS screwdriver and not a random Philips that we generally use here???

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - Bolt

You do know that Japanese cross head set screws (as found in Japanese motorcycle brake master cylinders) are designed for a special JIS screwdriver and not a random Philips that we generally use here???

I thought they were designed not to be removed ie the driver slips out when trying to remove screw?

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - focussed

You do know that Japanese cross head set screws (as found in Japanese motorcycle brake master cylinders) are designed for a special JIS screwdriver and not a random Philips that we generally use here???

The JIS is a modified version now obsolete of the standard philips head.

An ordinary philips driver or bit and grind the tip flat a little works fine.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

Thanks for all the replies, especially the reminder of the valve grinding paste trick. No reaction to my soldering bit idea though. Don't y'all like it?

Specific replies:-

[quote=gordonbennet]

I suppose a bit of careful reseach and you could source a large box of these torx screws in the three or four sizes most popularly used for philips screws and replace them with torx before they become a seized in issue. [/quote]

Difficult finding anything like that here. There's the language barrier, plus there's almost no DIY.

[quote=gordonbennet]As always, a drop of coppaslip or similar on the thread and head seat where subject to water ingress works wonders. [/quote]

Antiseize is unobtainable here in non-industrial quantities. I have a tube of some aluminium-based pertex stuff that I bought in Japan, but I use it very sparingly (e.g. on brake caliper sliders) because its irreplacable locally, and because I got used to doing without it, by making my own, (though that's a bit of a chore), or using something else.

Lately I mostly use PTFE tape or polythene on "dry" threads (e.g. wheel studs). This should last for ever, and polythene seems to have a thread-locking effect (Nylock - stylee?) which could be useful on a vibrating motorcycle.

[quote=gordonbennet]I have a quite substantial cordless electric impact driver, ...it would be much too heavy in action to use on a philips screw.[/quote]

[quote=Wackyrace]The little Bosch impact driver would be ideal for the OP's problem (prior to destroying the screw heads).[/quote]

So possibly I need a small electric impact driver (as well as drilling those ones out.)

The one I link to above probably isn't very heavy duty, but it is !/2" drive.

The greater problem is getting the right bits. They show some PH bits for it, but there's no mention of JIS.

I was aware of JIS bits but I can't ever remember seeing them specifically identified at the point of sale, even in Japan.

As noted, many people, even (especially?) "professionals", and even in The Yook, aren't aware of, or couldn't care less, about the differences between cross-head bit types. That will be even truer here.

Trying to communicate such subtlties to Chinese / Taiwanese speakers who couldn't care less anyway is likely to be a doomed mission.

Maybe something like this would have done the trick.

www.amazon.com/Vessel-Megadora-Impacta-P2x150-Scre...O

Annoyingly, I was in Japan about a month ago, and bought a Vessel screwdriver. I noticed they had a lot of smaller-style manual impact drivers that aren't, AFAIK, available here, but I didn't buy any. Online sellers generally won't deliver to Taiwan, otherwise I might order one.

Re the immediate problem I'll probably end up drilling the heads off and then hope there's enough left to put mole grips on

Edited by edlithgow on 28/08/2016 at 10:05

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - Wackyracer

No reaction to my soldering bit idea though. Don't y'all like it?

The heat might break it and you might be able to get a good enough solder joint onto the screw to get it moving. Whenever I get bolts that break off or the heads are too damaged to use enough torque to get them moving, I weld something to them. The heat breaks any corrosion or threadlock material and whatever I weld to them gives me the means to unscrew it.

for M6 bolts that break off flush on alloy castings, I use a penny washer and plug weld through the hole to the end of the bolt, then weld a nut to the washer. Then you can usually undo it with your fingers once it's cooled.

If your stuck with obtaining something small and you have the means to send me the money to cover the item and postage, I'll obtain it and stick it in the post for you.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

Hadn't thought of using solder (though I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try). Was just thinking of the trad bit as a way of precisely and selectively applying heat.

Re welding, no gear, though I'd quite like some. This specific situation would be rather high precision though.

Do they make dental welding equipment? :)

Re posting kit, thanks for the offer. GF is going to Japan in a couple of months so I MIGHT be able to get her to get me something, or Chinternet. If not, I might be in touch.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - Wackyracer

Hadn't thought of using solder (though I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try). Was just thinking of the trad bit as a way of precisely and selectively applying heat.

Re welding, no gear, though I'd quite like some. This specific situation would be rather high precision though.

Do they make dental welding equipment? :)

I can use 0.6mm wire in my MIG which means I can weld onto small screws down to 2mm in diameter, using a bit of care.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - RS2016

I've never tried it, but there is that tip about using an elastic band:

  • Place a heavy-duty elastic band between the screw and the driver, so that the elastic is pushed into the screwhead.
  • Hope and turn.
Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

I've never tried it, but there is that tip about using an elastic band:

  • Place a heavy-duty elastic band between the screw and the driver, so that the elastic is pushed into the screwhead.
  • Hope and turn.

That's a new one on me. Don't believe it, but I'll try it.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - liammcl

yup, they are stubborn !

I used a dremel cutting disk, which was worn down (on purpose)
so the curve of the cutting circle was tighter. (so as to minimise it cutting to the side of the screw head)

then I recut the "cross" for the philips screwdriver...

Penetrating oil, and gentle taps, penetrating oil etc

and then an impact socket and hammer...

Cheers
LIam

Edited by liammcl on 04/09/2016 at 03:47

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - liammcl


***ps, I've just remembered...there was one that would not budge,
even with the dremel and penetrating oil, impact socket ! ***


What I did,
was to sharpen an air hammers pointy bit rod
to the sharpest point I could make, (using a bench grinder)

(air hammers come with a few types of metal push in rods)

I then put the pointy rod's bit against the wall of one of the "cross"es of the screw.

The pointy "hammer" bit was angled about 30 to 45 degrees from horizontal.
and the air hammer, provided the impact to start the screw moving.

It did work on the one screw, when nothing else would...

Cheers
Liam
ps this is what I mean
.... I adapted this idea...
by using an air gun on its lowest setting and a sharpened air chisel bit
instead of a hammer and cold punch..
and hitting the stuck screw in the motorbike, rather than the stuck bolt in the video

youtu.be/E90IH20he80?t=503

Edited by liammcl on 04/09/2016 at 04:11

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

Well, thanks for the tip, BUT no air hammer, or compressor, or anywhere to operate one, but I suppose the "tangential tap" (Neo-heavy metal band?) technique shown in the vid might work with the right hand tools, though the nut chosen for the demo looks a lot easier.

I do have an electric hammer drill but it'll be rotating at the same time, so I'd guess there'd be control and collateral damage issues.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - edlithgow

Tried it with a spring-loaded centre punch. Not enough slot left for good location, so I tried making a dimple closer to the edge, and using that to drive against.

Still wouldn't budge, but I suspect I might have "staked" it, making things worse.

I suppose it would have been better to drill a small depression and drive against that.

Might try that later.

Any with stuck-fast-nasty-little-cross-head-screws - Un-Screwing - liammcl

plenty of penetrating oil,

clean all around the edge in case of rust etc, wiith thin screwdriver, small wire brush etc

I would try with a solid metal punch...
It'll seem like nothing happening.... the put some more penetrating oil in, leave overnight, clean , try again....andit will come out...

Good luck
Liam
ps Here , they recomment precision screw drivers to hot the screw...
www.visordown.com/forum/workshop/rounded-off-screw...l

Edited by liammcl on 07/09/2016 at 03:48