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Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

As with previous lead up to Xmas like others my old Force, North Yorks has started a campaign addressed against the demon drink/drug drive.

Less than a week into it they report so far 22 (TWENTY TWO) have been arrested. Unbelieveable.

So what arrangements are you making for a sober duty driver?

Should their cars be seized and crushed???????

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - RobJP

The number of arrests doesn't really matter without knowing the number of breath tests carried out, though.

For example : In my area last Christmas, North Wales police carried out in excess of 13,000 breath tests. A grand total of 60 arrests were made.

That equates to just under 0.5% failure rate. Which, when you consider that a number of those arrested will have been 'targeted' quite specifically, probably ends up more like 0.2-0.3%.

As to what we do, one of us is sober when we go out. End of story. Neither of us is in any way a big drinker, so it's not much bother for either of us to not be drinking. Two 'proper' nights out for us over the period, Xmas eve meeting a load of friends for drinks (I'm driving), and New Year's Eve party at a friends house, when Caroline is driving, and I'll be on the scrumpy !

As to the consequences for drink drivers, I'm firmly of the opinion that the first offence should carry a mandatory 1 month prison sentence along with the 1 year ban. A second offence should carry a automatic LIFE ban, minimum 1 year sentence, and forced bankruptcy, with all proceeds going to families of victims of drunk drivers.

It might sound excessive, but if we want to discourage, we shouldn't mess about. Make drink driving have HUGE consequences.

Will you ever learn????? - skidpan

Unfortunately there is no cure for stupid.

Should their cars be seized and crushed???????

No. They should be siezed and then sold via the trade or auction and the proceeds given the the NHS i.e. an organisation that we all benefit from at some point in our lives. I appreciate it will take some legislation to make it legal to transfer ownership should some of the guilty refuse to hand over their vehicles but surely am MP somewhere would be prepared to pick this up and take it forward.

Once on the books it should be extended to uninsurred, untaxed and no MOT as well.

Will you ever learn????? - scot22

Rob, I think you are being quite moderate. Good idea skidpan, many appear to drive quite expensive motors.

Will you ever learn????? - Avant

Good points - thanks everyone. We all need to be extra vigilant at this time, as well as sober, as there will be more pedestrians about who may be the worse for wear and may not look where they're going.

If they've wisely left their car behind, they deserve better than to be knocked down!

Will you ever learn????? - ExA35Owner

Seizing vehicles is an attractive solution - if the driver is the owner. What if the driver has a work van which he's allowed to use for private purposes? What if the driver has legitimately borrowed someone else's car (parent's, for instance) and the owner wasn't there to check whether the driver as sober (parent abroad on holiday)? What if the driver is in a hired car, hired by his employers? So there would be some very inequitable seizures, impacting innocent people. And how does the law of property work in these cases? In the cases of no insurance, for example, the owner is responsible and can retrieve the car from seizure on proof of insurance, so that's a rather different situation.

Will you ever learn????? - skidpan

If the car is privately owned sieze it, the owner should be more careful who they let drive. No sympathy.

If the car is hired or leased I guess it would be more difficult to sieze the vehicle but in these cases the law should allow for the fine to be suitably huge (as in the case of cheap valueless vehicles).

In the case of insurance if the owner allowed the driver to use the car without insurance sieze it, no excuse, they should check.

So there would be some very inequitable seizures, impacting innocent people

How can there be innocent people. If they allow drunks to drive their car or people to drive their car without insurance they are guilty and should suffer.

Will you ever learn????? - scot22

I am not always in agreement with skidpan. However, in this case I think he is absolutely right.

Owners are responsible for their cars and who drives them.

I have often posted, and repeat, society as a whole does not take the responsibilities of driving seriously enough.

Will you ever learn????? - piggy

One category of offenders you all seem to have forgotten are those idiots who insist on using mobie phones while driving,something i see almost every day. To my mind a £100 fine is far too little,they should face a mandatory 6 month ban plus a £500 fine.Just the other day I saw someone resting the phone on top of the steering wheel and probably texting at the same time. What would help would be a reversal of police budget cuts and more road patrols.

Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

Seems its like shelling peas in N Yorks. Still they come.

Tally for last weekend SIXTEEN!!!!!!!!

Xmas and beyond spoilt for these idiots.

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - SteVee

I'd like to see graduated licences for car drivers.

When you pass your test, you get a basic car driving licence - such as for a 60BHP hatchback. You want fast, big or heavy then take an additional test, and retake it every 5 or 10 years.

If you're guilty of a serious offence - drink/driving definitely comes into this category - then you get the ban plus ONLY the basic licence on your return. Less serious offence, such as phone use, puts you straight back to basic.

With the current all or nothing approach, I think a ban is sometimes not considered as we don't want people to lose their job. The taxpayer then has to support them.

I know you can still kill in the 60BHP car - so an outright ban would still be necessary sometimes.

No modifications to the car allowed for a basic licence either.

Will you ever learn????? - Vitesse6

This has the added bonus that anyone over the age of 30 driving one of these cars will probably be doing so due to their misdemeanours and so will have to suffer driving the badge of shame.

Will you ever learn????? - concrete

Very interesting concept SteVee. The problem with all decent ideas that could be made to work for all our benefit, is that they will be rubbished by 'authority' for the simple reason they did not think of it first, so they will look foolish if they adopt it. Typical backward thinking of UK officialdom which holds all of us back.

Like DVD it amazes me that drivers are still risking this tactic. I used to live in N. Yorkshire and it was always well known they are vigourous at enforcing any aspect of the RTA, especially concerning alcohol use. All credit, who knows how many people are alive today because this enforcement procedure has been discharged properly. It would be interesting to know the demographic of those caught. At least then they could be targeted with education.

Cheers Concrete

Will you ever learn????? - FP

I quite like the sound of SV's "graded licence" scheme, but I think it's dead in the water because of the administration complexities and therefore cost, in spite of the fact that, in the long term, it might be cost-effective.

Will you ever learn????? - RT

I quite like the sound of SV's "graded licence" scheme, but I think it's dead in the water because of the administration complexities and therefore cost, in spite of the fact that, in the long term, it might be cost-effective.

Insurers could effectively implement such a scheme easily - it wouldn't have any effect on toerags that don't bother to insure their car but they probably don't comply with bans either.

Will you ever learn????? - Leif
The law is already quite strict on drink drivers. It must often mean a loss of job. If you drink and drive you must be thick, and extra punishment would not be a deterrent.
Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

Would you rely on this or over the counter breathalysers?

morning-after.org.uk/?page_id=82

I wouldn't unless it said I was positive.

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - RT

Would you rely on this or over the counter breathalysers?

morning-after.org.uk/?page_id=82

I wouldn't unless it said I was positive.

dvd

There's a flaw in the logic of that - on a night out you're likely to have too much to drink to be able to remember in the morning how many you had - or even worse forget to add in all the drinks at the end.

Will you ever learn????? - focussed

Two points,

Graduated driver licencing has been proposed before,

A carefully thought out scheme was presented to the last government by a highly quaified driving educator.

Extremely experienced ex-traffic officer, degree level qualification in driver education, ROSPA and IAM examiner, current DVSA instructor qualified.

The government totally ignored it. ( Translation=Not politically acceptable=no votes in it+won't make as much money as speed cameras)

The second point,

The emphasis has always been on drunk driving - very commendable, but,

There are more drug impaired drivers on the roads today, than drunks.

Drug driving is the new drunk driving.

So test for both.

Will you ever learn????? - concrete

Excellent point Focussed. Recently nearby, a motorist killed a motorcyclist when he turned across the road in front of him. Absolutely no chance of avoidance. Turned out the driver was stoned on drugs and did not even see the motorcycle, despite DLRs. He has since been charged with causing death by dangerous driving. No consolation to the dead mans' family. The funeral is today and some chaps from my local are attending as members of the Bikers Fraternity. Drugs are certainly an advancing problem but I think now roadside checks can detect them too. DVD will know if that is correct.

Cheers Concrete

Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

An idea of what happens:

www.northyorkshire.police.uk/16202

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - concrete

Well done DVD. A 'sobering' thought hopefully. Cheers Concrete

Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

Unbelievable last total so far - EIGHTY FOUR!!!!!!

Even one at 1.30pm ish today.

Like Lemmings they still keep coming.

Custody suites starting to smell like a brewery.

Please - if you drink don't drive - if you drive don't drink

May your guiding angel fly faster than the speed you travel at.

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - Dwight Van Driver

.........and the December total arrested for drink/drug driving was a staggering

124

which is a 20% increase on last year.

Estimated 2000 tests carried out.

So thats 124 who thought it wont be me have found out it was them.....

dvd

Will you ever learn????? - skidpan

Personally I don't find 124 particulary staggering when you consider the size of North Yorkshire. I appreciate its not exactly central London population density wise but even so as a percentage of the driving population its not exactly huge.

6% of those tested failed which again is not exactly earth shattering when surely you should only get stopped if you are exhibiting poor driving standards or your car flags up on their APR.

There will always be idiots, as they say "you can't cure stupid".

Will you ever learn????? - Bromptonaut

Personally I don't find 124 particulary staggering when you consider the size of North Yorkshire. I appreciate its not exactly central London population density wise but even so as a percentage of the driving population its not exactly huge.

IIRC drink driving has always been more prevalent (per head of population) in rural areas. It is after all easy to get bus or cab home in London whereas out in sticks.....

The offence has two peaks. One at Xmas and another in summer when folks drive out to (or rather back from) rural pubs.

Will you ever learn????? - grumpyscot

19% reduction in number of motorists caught in Scotland over Xmas / New Year - and that's with Scotland having a limit at 50Mg and not 80 as in England.

Mind you, Police Scotland has drastically reduced the number of traffic cars (rarely see one nowadays) and the majority of "stops" were at roadside checks.

So not convinced (yet) that reducing the DD limit is effective.

Will you ever learn????? - martint123

.........and the December total arrested for drink/drug driving was a staggering

124


Any breakdown on offenders? e.g. m/f, age group. Didn't it used to be 40-60 year old blokes in the past?

Will you ever learn????? - Defactio

Focussed:

Hear, hear.

It seems to me that much too much focus is placed on drink driving; it seems to be simply the 'pc' law to focus-on rather than applying recources where they make a bigger difference.

Are there any actual statistics that prove that drink driving is the number one reason for accidents / deaths? (I can now imagine readers reacting with shock and disgust to that statement - please think about that automatic reaction, calmly for a moment). Ask anyone what they think of as the number one offence, and I'll bet that you'll get DD as the answer 99% of the time - but is that an incorrect perception?

I've been nearly crucified many times on motorways due to middle-lane hoggers (where the 'new' extra powers to stop it seem not to be being used by the police), incompetent drivers not 'looking', many drivers have obviously never taken a driving test themselves (regardless of the fact that they will possess a driving licence).

Drugs, phone-use, poorly maintained cars, idiotic 'sober' drivers, illegally acquired driving licenses but to name a few of the alternative 'hits' that can be made.

Let's not forget 'pot-holes' - legal killers that the government actually, intentionally endorse! Can some resource be diverted to that problem please ?

Edited by Defactio on 14/12/2016 at 12:40

Will you ever learn????? - RobJP

If you've nearly been wiped out on Motorways due to 'middle lane hoggers', then there is a very simple solution : look further ahead.

Travelling at those speeds, you should be absolutely aware of everything of relevance to yourself within the next half-mile or so (30 seconds, roughly). The further away something is, the less of your attention it takes - so those things happening at the half mile are filed, or a slight re-positioning, or slightly off the accelerator. Those things within 400 meters get more attention. Those within 100 metres take the majority of your attention.

You state that 'many' drivers have obviously never taken a test, but provide nothing to back it up, while requesting that people produce proof of how dangerous drink-driving is. An interesting approach, to be certain. I look forward to your follow-up post where you provide numbers to back up your assertions.

I'd love to see a 'killer' pot-hole. A 'legal killer' that the government 'endorse'. No proof of 'endorsement', of course, or the 'fact' that they are killers. Again, most of the time they can be avoided if you pay attention properly.

As to your 'proof' on causes of accidents, then I'd suggest you go to the RoSPA site, where they have links to the government database of causes of road accidents and fatalities. Though the datasets are not up to date, they are useful.

For drink driving in 2012, the figures suggest 230 DD related deaths, out of approx 1750 road fatalities. So about 13%. Now, all statistics should, of course, be treated with caution. But, unless someone can come up with better numbers, those have to be viewed as accurate.

Edited by RobJP on 14/12/2016 at 13:11

Will you ever learn????? - concrete

As with previous lead up to Xmas like others my old Force, North Yorks has started a campaign addressed against the demon drink/drug drive.

Less than a week into it they report so far 22 (TWENTY TWO) have been arrested. Unbelieveable.

So what arrangements are you making for a sober duty driver?

Should their cars be seized and crushed???????

dvd

Last year when this topic was raised by DVD we all expressed similar views. SteVee came up with an excellent idea regarding new and errant drivers. Rob has a novel approach, which is fine by me with one proviso. If you make the penalty for this offence as severe as you wish, then there a lots of other offence which are just as pernicious which will then have a lesser punishment. So I agree provided the whole punishment sysytem is overhauled and made fit for purpose. We don't really wish to single out drivers as the bane of society. Without our involutary cash input the exchequer would be skint.

Cheers Concrete