Alleged Speeding Offence

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 14:45
Alleged Speeding Offence - kesher

I have been offered 3 points and £100 fine after allegedly doing 45 in a 30. However, it seems I may have a defence:

The road I was driving on before I joined the 30MPH limit B road, I was supposedly speeding on, has a limit of 60 MPH and ends in a T junction whereby you then enter the 30mph limit B road.

My understanding is that where a road which has a higher speed limit then meets/joins a road that has a lower speed limit, in this case the 60 MPH limit road, the lower (30mph) speed limit signs must not be situated no more than 20 metres from the (T) junction with the 30 mph speed limit road.

Well I have measured this distance and its over 20 metres: not a great deal over; but definitely over.

The road I was supposedly speeding on (the 30 MPH limit B road) has street lightening on the left side of the road; but none on the right side of the road. It's a rural road with fields on both sides of it.

So can I avoid this speeding offence by pointing out in court that the 30MPH limit signs were more than the statutorily required 20 meters maximum distance from the junction of the road with the lower speed limit of 30MPH?

At the time I genuinely thought I was still on a 60MPH limit road, after turning at the junction onto the 30MPH limit B road as I was actually accelerating up to 60 MPH; but then further along the road I saw 40 MPH speed limits signs and the mobile speeding camera van behind the 40MPH limit signs. I hit the brakes then wondered if I would get a NIP for doing 45 in a 40. Little did I know that the road I was on at the time had a 30MPH limit. I don't understand why this basically straight part of the road has a 30MPH limit.

Also if I choose to go to court and have to admit the offence can I realistically ask the magistrate not to give me 3 points as having a clean licence, which I have had for a long time, is important to the type of work I intend to apply for.

Just one more thing: I did not see the 30 MPH limit signs as they are quite high up unlike a number of other speed limit signs in the area, not even my wife who was sitting next to me at the time saw them and she has eyes like a hawk and is an enthusiastic back seat driver.

Thanks

Edited by kesher on 02/02/2014 at 14:47

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 15:10
Alleged Speeding Offence - FP

To deal with the various points which you seem to be offering as mitigation (in reverse order): "I did not see the 30 MPH limit signs as they are quite high up unlike a number of other speed limit signs in the area..." Pretty certain any court would see this as irrelevant.

"...can I realistically ask the magistrate not to give me 3 points as having a clean licence, which I have had for a long time, is important to the type of work I intend to apply for." Possibly valid, but it doesn't sound a very convincing argument - it's too easy for anyone to pretend they're in this position.

"At the time I genuinely thought I was still on a 60MPH limit road..." Forget it.

"My understanding is that where a road which has a higher speed limit then meets/joins a road that has a lower speed limit, in this case the 60 MPH limit road, the lower (30mph) speed limit signs must not be situated no more than 20 metres from the (T) junction with the 30 mph speed limit road. Well I have measured this distance and its over 20 metres..." I can't comment on whether you are correct about this regulation; even if you are, it may still not count as a "get-out-of-jail" card. For this point you need professional advice, I would say.

You may want to see a solicitor with traffic law experience, but it could cost you. You will have to decide whether to go to court in this one and if you think it's worth it.

Other posters may have a better take on the siting of the signs issue.

Edited by FP on 02/02/2014 at 15:11

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 15:49
Alleged Speeding Offence - RT

The road I was supposedly speeding on (the 30 MPH limit B road) has street lightening on the left side of the road; but none on the right side of the road. It's a rural road with fields on both sides of it.

I don't think you have a defence - the presence of street lighting alone is enough to define a 30 mph limit. Where a lit area is NOT 30 mph, there must be signs and repeaters showing what limit does apply, including National Speed Limit (NSL).

How can argue in court that you thought it was a 60 limit, if you saw the street lights ?

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 16:13
Alleged Speeding Offence - Bromptonaut

45 in a thirty is a 50% overspeed. Much more than that and ther'd be no offe of fine and points, just a summons to court.

While I understand your frustration I don't think you've got much mitigation. If you to court that way I think you'll get a bigger fine than £100.

the positioning of the signs is a technicality on which you'd need good legal advice which is likley to cost. If they're only slightly out the law may rule the error 'de minimis' and of no material effect and convict anyway. Fine more than 100 and possibly more than three points.

I'd take £100 and three and regard myself as lucky.

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 16:40
Alleged Speeding Offence - kesher

45 in a thirty is a 50% overspeed. Much more than that and ther'd be no offe of fine and points, just a summons to court.

While I understand your frustration I don't think you've got much mitigation. If you to court that way I think you'll get a bigger fine than £100.

the positioning of the signs is a technicality on which you'd need good legal advice which is likley to cost. If they're only slightly out the law may rule the error 'de minimis' and of no material effect and convict anyway. Fine more than 100 and possibly more than three points.

I'd take £100 and three and regard myself as lucky.

I must admit I've never heard of 'de minimis'. Case law would be helpful. It's not so much the fine I'm concerned about, it's more about the points.



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Mon 3 Feb 2014 08:59
Alleged Speeding Offence - Bromptonaut

I must admit I've never heard of 'de minimis'. Case law would be helpful. It's not so much the fine I'm concerned about, it's more about the points.

De minimis non curat lex - the law is not concerned with trifles. Not so much case law as principle. DVD, who knows his stuff, points out that the DfT manual is guidance not gospel.

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 16:33
Alleged Speeding Offence - kesher

The road I was supposedly speeding on (the 30 MPH limit B road) has street lightening on the left side of the road; but none on the right side of the road. It's a rural road with fields on both sides of it.

I don't think you have a defence - the presence of street lighting alone is enough to define a 30 mph limit. Where a lit area is NOT 30 mph, there must be signs and repeaters showing what limit does apply, including National Speed Limit (NSL).

How can argue in court that you thought it was a 60 limit, if you saw the street lights ?

Essentially, should there not be a "system" of street lighting for a road to default to a 30MPH speed limit? What I would like to know is if a road with two lanes (one in each direction) which only has street lighting on one side is classed as having a “system” of street lightening. Even if it is then why bother having the 30MPH speed limit signs near the T junction? Surely a system of street lighting would be legally sufficient to inform drivers of the 30MPH speed limit.

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Sun 2 Feb 2014 16:41
Alleged Speeding Offence - FP

"Essentially, should there not be a "system" of street lighting for a road to default to a 30MPH speed limit?"

I don't think that arguments about whether there should be a better system of indicating a speed limit will affect your position in the slightest. You have to deal with things as they are, not as you would like them to be.

I'm sorry if I and the other posters seem harsh. Most of us have probably been in a situation where we realised there was a speed limit in force a bit late and either got caught or were lucky to escape. You weren't, unfortunately.

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Mon 3 Feb 2014 07:51
Alleged Speeding Offence - Dwight Van Driver

I doubt you have an argument about street lighting one side only. In a case many years ago at Brighton it was held that lighting from an adjacent source was held to comply.

Regarding signing the LA work from a 'Bible' regarding signs etc. Have a look through this

tinyurl.com/pwbv9p7

in particuolar Section 2 .5. illumination

Section 14 in whole about placing of signs.

Bear in mind this is guidance and not law itself but failure to comply may present an argument that prohibition is not signed, a requirement at law

dvd

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Mon 3 Feb 2014 11:32
Alleged Speeding Offence - Gordon17

My understanding is that where a road which has a higher speed limit then meets/joins a road that has a lower speed limit, in this case the 60 MPH limit road, the lower (30mph) speed limit signs must not be situated no more than 20 metres from the (T) junction with the 30 mph speed limit road.

Well I have measured this distance and its over 20 metres: not a great deal over; but definitely over.

In the circumstances you describe I think the 30mph signs have to be on the 60mph limit road as you approach the T junction, so you wouldn't have been turning into a 30mph limit from a 60mph limit, but would have already been in a 30mph limit.


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Tue 4 Feb 2014 23:13
Alleged Speeding Offence - Andrew-T

< What I would like to know is if a road with two lanes (one in each direction) which only has street lighting on one side is classed as having a “system” of street lightening. Even if it is then why bother having the 30MPH speed limit signs near the T junction? Surely a system of street lighting would be legally sufficient to inform drivers of the 30MPH speed limit. >

There has to be a roadside sign wherever the speed limit changes. Even if street lighting were considered to be sufficient indication of a 30 limit, a sign would have to indicate the exact point where it started. You are clutching at a rather small straw here.

One of the bigger irritations of driving in this century is the steady proliferation of new 40s, 50s and other limits, especially on semi-rural roads where we oldies don't expect them.

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Wed 5 Feb 2014 08:52
Alleged Speeding Offence - jc2

And even if you tried arguing position of the signs,the magistrates would probably apply "spirit of the law" rather than "letter of the law".

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