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Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - Krayzee

On 5th December this year, I went to view a van in the neighbouring village, as I want a van to expand my window cleaning business - I currently use ladders attached to a Clio but it's time to stop using the ladders now, move to the high reach poles system. I'm after a van with fairly specific criteria (for example it needs a certain amount of payload as I'll be fitting a water tank and storing other tools and equipment in there) and this van with this independent dealer fit the description. I went to see the Ford Transit (armed with knowledge of what to look out for with second hand vehicles, common van faults, common Transit faults and the like) and looked it over. One of the fuel injection rods (the number 1) had liquid around the base of it (there's a circle where it had pooled) and on smelling it, it smelt like fuel. I told the dealer and he told me it was fine, there were no leaks - the fuel injector rods are one of the common problems with Transits, it's why I paid particular attention to it. On the walk around, I asked him what the faults were with it, if anything major or minor needed doing to it and he told me no, there was nothing.

I took it for a fairly quick test drive, a mile or two, he accompanied me, and there were no noises telling me anything was wrong during the drive. I then checked over the service history (which is really just one sheet of paper with a list of dates, mileage, and whether it had had a service, MOT etc) and the last two MOT certificates which didn't have any advisory notes on them. On agreeing a fee, I returned with the deposit the next day, the 6th and this is confirmed on my bank statement as I withdrew the cash. My wife was with me when we paid the deposit and I showed her the van, including the fuel injector rod with the liquid on, and again the dealer said it was nothing despite it smelling like fuel.

We returned later that same day to pay the amount in full but he has put 5/12/13 on both the deposit and the Used Car Invoice, which I probably should've checked and amended.

On getting the van home it was dark and from signalling during the drive home, it was clear the left indicator bulb was going - it was flicking on and off very quickly. My wife helped me reverse the van and noticed it had no reversing lights. We then checked the other rear lights and found other problems - one hazard light was correct, the other was turning the normal rear light on and off; one fog light worked, the other turned the hazard warning light on instead. An internal rear loading bay light also wasn't working.

The next morning I rang the dealer and he agreed to fix the lights and he did. I asked why he hadn't checked any of the lights before selling me the vehicle, as it was an MOT fail, and he said he hadn't checked the lights but had checked everything else. He said it was a bad earth and that it was now all fixed. Alarm bells were now going off, as was my gut but the van seemed ok.

I set to work preparing the rear of the van for having a water tank fitted (I have a 300 mile round trip to the West Midlands to have it professionally fitted, and have booked an appointment to have all the equipment and fitters ready, which is this Monday 23 December), and this included an evening drive to Homebase, where I noticed fuel spills where I had parked the van. On getting home, there were also fuel spills on our driveway. I rang our local garage to book it in to have a look, and to also do an overall vehicle inspection on it as I was seriously concerned about the state of the vehicle I had purchased.

Sure enough, the garage informed me there was a leak in the fuel injector 1 rod, in the pipe union, and on removing the rod, there are imperfections in the steel as if it had been bashed about a bit! No good when it has to deal with high pressure. I have this fuel injector rod (1 and 2 as they are attached and are fitted in pairs) with me still, should I need it as evidence. I informed the independent dealer about the problem with the van, and that I had asked my regular garage to fix it and asked him to pay for it. He refused as he could've fixed it himself. I do accept this, as by law the dealer should be given the chance to rectify the fault, but the van should not have been sold to me in this dangerous condition, and I told him I couldn't trust him to do a proper job, considering he didn't even bother checking something as simple as the lights on the vehicle and he couldn't answer my question when I asked him why he sold me this van in this dangerous condition, and that it's not roadworthy and not fit for purpose. On top of this there was also a broken oil pressure switch, which the garage quickly changed, but again, it's something else that should have been done prior to sale.

Hoping that was the end of it, I took the £300 hit for the repairs (plus the £100 for the inspection), wanting to put it all behind me, and concentrate on getting the van ready so I can get back to work and earning - I hadn't worked since getting the van as there was still a lot to do, and I took everything out of the Clio to have it valeted ready to sell on.

The very next day, it wouldn't start. I'm not great with vans so didn't have a clue - it was turning over just not firing, but I took a few hours to charge the battery in case the power had gotten too low. This didn't work so I called out the RAC (after upgrading my membership with them as my current membership didn't have Home Start on it) and the RAC mechanic spent a good amount of time checking everything over to try and start it. The engine started using EastStart but then stalled - fuel was not getting to the engine from the fuel filter (the fuel filter was getting fuel from the tank ok) so he suggested it might be the fuel pump. It was now around 5:30pm so he towed my car to my regular garage, for them to look at the next morning.

During their investigation, they found an engine management trouble code stored for main relay power failure. The battery was dead (they said the battery wasn't good enough for the van) so they charged it and carried out engine bay electrical testing. They identified low power supply to fuel pump (9.4-9.5 volts) resulting in loss of diesel injection. They carried out main engine bay fuse box testing - introducing independent power supply to main relay and identified volt drop (3.5 volts) between main relay and fuel pump relay. Suspecting internal fuse box fault but they stopped the investigation there as it was taking so much time, and therefore my money, to investigate. They suspect it needs a new fuse box and engine loom, which is £1100 from Ford, never mind the cost of labour and VAT.

The warranty the dealer gave me is third party and only covers up to £500 per claim so that's no good. I then asked the dealer for a full refund as the van is not fit for purpose and he refused. I actually asked him to repeat himself as he was breaking the law by refusing the refund, and he repeated that he wasn't going to give me my money back, he wants the chance to fix it. I can't bring myself to trust that he will do even an adequate job in fixing it, and that it won't break down two weeks later, at which point I'll have had a tank bolted into the back and be really stuck.

He picked the van up from my regular garage yesterday, and towed it to the garage he usually uses, which is several miles away. I have spoken to him twice today (I've had to hide my mobile number from appearing on calls as he doesn't pick up when he sees it's me), he's also had a go at me because I keep calling him, which I told him off for. Why wouldn't I keep ringing to find out what's going on, especially as he says he'll ring to update me, and he doesn't.

I have to be in the West Midlands on Monday with a van for the fitting, and it's looking like I'll have to cancel.

If he says he has fixed the van, and it runs, am I still, legally, entitled to demand a full refund, based on everything you have read above with the on-going problems. If he says it's fixed, I then have a 300-mile round trip where I will have no faith on whether I will actually make it there and back again, and will it last a reasonable amount of time?

These things I have yet to discuss with him - on his AutoTrader advert, it said MOT 11/2014, this is wrong, it's actually 03/14, the advert has gone from AutoTrader now and I don't have a copy of it but presumably AutoTrader would? On his own website, it said "90% tyre condition" but my regular garage have informed me that the rear tyres are on their legal limit, and the front ones have 3mm left - again the advert has gone and I don't have a copy but maybe there is still a copy of it out there. During the first garage inspection, when they fixed the diesel leak, they advised me that there was a leak in the CV gaitor and that the anti roll rod was bent, probably during a bump, which will need attention and around £400 to fix.

Please ask if I have left anything out and I'll update my story. Really I'd like to know if I can ask for a refund from him right now, even if he has fixed the van. And if he refuses, my next steps are mediation/ombudsman and/or the civil courts/small claims as it will be under £10,000. This will take time, and I need a van to be able to work, otherwise there is no money coming in, but bills still need to be paid.

Thank you very much, I can't begin to describe how devastating this has been to me as I have borrowed this money from my father-in-law to expand my business, to look after his daughter and grandchildren.

Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - Krayzee

An update:

I have just spoken to the dealer, who told me it was nothing to do with what my regular garage had said, he said the fuse box was fine, it might be the fuel pump. It won't be done today but the parts will be in on Monday.

At which I said that that was enough. I repeated that the van wasn't fit for purpose, it's not of satisfactory quality as it doesn't run and has had problems ever since I bought it, and under the Sale of Goods Act I want my money back. We then round in circles a bit, with him repeatedly refusing me a refund as well as talking over me when I was speaking, causing me to raise my voice to the point of shouting down the phone at him, though I didn't swear or abuse. I am very reasonable and try to see things from others point of view but there's only so far I will be pushed and I will always stand up for myself, especially when he's clearly breaking the law.

I told him I am backed by the Sale of Goods Act and that I have the law on my side, and he said I didn't!

I asked him when he would be back at his home (he has an office and his dealer yard at his large house) so I could come over and get my money but he doesn't do online banking and refused to use telephone banking to transfer the money that way.

I told him I would be over Monday morning so he can give me my refund and he told me not to tell him what to do. He said I can stand around outside as much as I like, doesn't bother him, and when I replied that I won't be outside, I'll be in your office waiting for your refund and I'll stay as long as it takes as I can't work without a van he began yelling at me not to threaten him!

When I pointed out there was no threat to him, I was clearly stating what I would do on Monday to get my refund, and anyone who wanted to look at his vehicles I'd tell them why I was there, he hung up.

I'll try and print out some Sale of Goods Act terms and highlight those that apply to me and the refund I deserve, and take the small claims court form with me to show him my intentions, but doubt that will do any good considering the phone call I just had with him. I'm also really not looking forward to going round there on Monday morning and getting a load of grief, but I guess I have to try, if only as something else to add to my case should it go to court. He'll probably make sure he's not there anyway but seeing as I can't work without a van, I've nowhere else to be!

Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - FP

These are very long posts, K, and I'll admit I haven't read every word.

It seems to me you've bought a van that has displayed faults over a period of time and are now expecting a refund. You did not do anything about the problems immediately and you now want your money back without giving the dealer a chance to rectify the fault(s).

"I told him I am backed by the Sale of Goods Act and that I have the law on my side.." I'm not too sure.

My understanding is that your right to a refund may depend on whether you have legally "accepted" the car. If you keep the car for longer than a reasonable time you may be deemed to have accepted it and not be entitled to a refund. The law does not specifiy what is "reasonable" and I don't know if there is any rule of thumb or legal precedent in such cases, or whether it would have to be established by a court case. But certainly you did not contact the dealer immediately the problems surfaced.

In addition (if I have understood correctly) you have had some repairs done elsewhere. That looks very much as if you have therefore "accepted" the car.

Now the dealer has offered to rectify the fault you feel "I couldn't trust him to do a proper job", but this surely doesn't help your case at all.

I'm not a legal expert, but it seems to me you're on very dodgy ground, and even more so now you're threatening to occupy his office on Monday. You shouldn't be surprised if the police are called and you are removed if the situation turns ugly. If your intention is simply to get your money back I suggest you start a small claims procedure, possibly after taking some proper advice.

I strongly suggest you don't get carried away by the frustration you undoubtedly feel.

Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - Krayzee

I was trying to be thorough and helpful, if I don't leave anything out then I can get the best advice.

"It seems to me you've bought a van that has displayed faults over a period of time and are now expecting a refund."

Over a short period of time to be far more accurate. We're talking about a matter of days.

"You did not do anything about the problems immediately and you now want your money back without giving the dealer a chance to rectify the fault(s)"

Not true. I immediately contacted him about the lights, which he fixed. I think 2 days later I noticed the diesel leak and immediately took the van to a local garage when there was the diesel leak because of the serious nature of it. I then advised the dealer of what I had done. Surely it's up to me how I have the repair done without any legal implications if I am prepared to pay for it?

"If you keep the car for longer than a reasonable time you may be deemed to have accepted it and not be entitled to a refund."

I bought it on 06/12/13 and it has spent more time with the dealer and at the garage than with me. So two weeks and well within the 'reasonable time', which usually equates to months!

I'm aware of the possibility of the police being called, but I have to turn up and give him a chance to agree to the refund. I'm also aware I need to write a formal letter requesting a refund and giving a deadline for his response.

There have been numerous, on-going problems with the car, right from the first day I bought it and should not have been sold to me in this state, which is why I am asking for the refund.

Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - FP

Thanks for the clarifications.

"Surely it's up to me how I have the repair done without any legal implications if I am prepared to pay for it?" Sure - but it may invalidate your right to a refund.

It "should not have been sold to me in this state, which is why I am asking for the refund." I understand, but you may have removed the right to a refund - see above. Your right to a refund is not linked to any legal offence the dealer may have committed outside the actual deal you had with him.

I really hope others can chime in on this - I'm only throwing out some ideas dependent on my understanding of consumer law and I am not a lawyer.

Is TonyG out there?

Edited by FP on 21/12/2013 at 20:13

Ford Transit - Help with independent dealer - alan1302

One of the fuel injection rods (the number 1) had liquid around the base of it (there's a circle where it had pooled) and on smelling it, it smelt like fuel. I told the dealer and he told me it was fine, there were no leaks - the fuel injector rods are one of the common problems with Transits, it's why I paid particular attention to it.

This is the part I don't understand. You knew Transit vans had a common problem, saw the problem but still bought the van? Why did you not walk away and go elsewhere - it's not like the uncommon.