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Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - evenflow

Hello all - help!!! No idea where I stand with this.

About 2 weeks ago I purchased a used car from an independent trader.

Gave him v5, old MOTs, HPI (from when i bought the car), service book, all other paperwork etc, paid the £3500 difference in value and drove my new car home. All very happy.

Just had a call from the dealer claiming the car I gave as PX was clocked and had had 30k mileage taken off it in 2011. I only bought it 4 months ago. I have asked for the proof of the clocking in writing.

Dealer is demanding I return my new car to him, then take my old car back and get a refund from the garage that sold it to me. I have insisted I sold the car to him in good faith.

The last email I sent him said this:

The mileage was as per the odometer. I clearly had no idea that there might seemingly be anomalies.
Again, the service history I stated was exactly as per the service book.
Both of these items were as I received them from XXXXXXX a few months earlier.
You had physical copies of all of this information and more when I paid for the XXXXX, and I assume you have a process of due diligence before accepting a car in part exchange.
Please contact XXXXX, the dvla, national mileage register or police if you wish to investigate this further. The mot history you sent me gives dates as to when the mileage anomaly might have occurred, and therefore you could find out who the owner was at this time.
I am truly sorry if this leaves you in a difficult situation, but the deal was done, I paid you for the XXXXX, and in doing so, you accepted the XXXXX with no implied warranties or guarantees.

The dealer then replied with this:

Without prejudice I don’t think you understand, the service history is counterfeit which means that by passing it as an official record you have committed a criminal (not civil) offence, also you told me in writing that it was full XXXXX history and it's just a set of counterfeit XXXXX stamps.

It makes no legal difference if you’re a private individual or a business, passing counterfeit documents in relation to a financial transaction is serious criminal stuff, if you had not passed the service book as proof of history it would be a totally different matter.

Basically we can play this a number of ways but you will end up better off by a significant margin if you just return the car to the people you bought it off.

If you don’t choose to do the correct and let us not forget honourable thing and take the XXXXX back then I will have no option but to take you to court for passing fake documents in relation to a financial transaction. If you are found guilty then you have a criminal record, costs and the real possibility of imprisonment as it falls under the counterfeit and forgeries act which is serious law - this isn't a TV show and I'm not just going to go away.

I just don’t understand why you would want to go through all that given the possible consequences for you, on my side all I have to think about is maybe a few thousand in legal costs which I'm insured for anyway, besides I have been through this before and the courts have found in my favour every time when fake documents are involved.

Anyway I will let you sleep on it for tonight as I don’t think you have fully absorbed the gravity of what's involved here, or that I'm not just going to accept it as 'nothing to do with you'.

At this moment in time I have no hard feelings over this, there is an easy solution for you and I'm happy to work with you to help you through it; really there is no reason to make this one of those things you end up regretting and the way out is easy.

Please help!

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - lordwoody

"you have committed a criminal (not civil) offence"

If this is indeed a criminal offence it would not be up to the dealer to take you to court, he would have to report you to the appropriate authorities and it would be up to them to decide if a criminal offence had occured. There is a considerable amount of barrack-room lawyer about his letter, but however inaccurate some of his assertions are, I would take some legal advice. Ring around some local solicitors, find one who deals with consumer matters and book an hour with them.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Armitage Shanks {p}

CAB might help but I'd be inclined to pay for a professional.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - FP

"...I will have no option but to take you to court for passing fake documents in relation to a financial transaction. If you are found guilty then you have a criminal record, costs and the real possibility of imprisonment as it falls under the counterfeit and forgeries act which is serious law..."

As LW says, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, legally. He cannot take upon himself the prosecution of a criminal matter. He may have a case against the OP regarding the drop in value of the car that was exchanged if it is proved to have been clocked. We don't know how much that might be, but it may not be particularly significant.

The dealer also says, "...all I have to think about is maybe a few thousand in legal costs which I'm insured for anyway, besides I have been through this before and the courts have found in my favour every time when fake documents are involved." This strikes me as pure huffing and puffing - he has never taken anyone to court for "passing fake documents"; maybe - just maybe - he has successfully taken action against people for compensation for loss of value on a trade resulting from fake documents.

Nonetheless, the OP would be well advised to be wary of this guy. I am sure the suggestions to get proper legal advice are the only way forward. I don't think doing nothing is an option, but I have little idea of how to proceed. I certainly wouldn't be rushed into returning the car. I might feel like writing a neutral letter to the dealer along the lines of "I am taking legal advice and you will hear from me or my solicitor in due course".

If DVD takes a look at this post, he may be able to give some pointers.

Edited by FP on 30/11/2013 at 12:05

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - tony g
Hi even flow.
I'm a car dealer and what this dealer is saying is nonsense .

I've bought and then sold a car that may have been clocked ,it could never be proved .
When my buyer traded the car in with another dealer ,that dealer was told by the auction that the px car had been sold by the auction with a higher mileage previously .The dealer then tried to pursue the private owner who part exchanged the car for an extra £1000 ,the dealer didn't receive any money .

Basically it comes down to the difference between a private seller ,part exchanging a car , and a trade seller .
The dealer has to be able to prove that your part exchange was clocked while you owned it ,to be able to pursue you for damages ,that's clearly not the case hear .

The law won't support a dealer making a claim against you ,simply because as a private ,non trade,individual,your not deemed to have sufficient knowledge to check a car properly .

The law also says that a dealer should have sufficient knowledge to check a car properly with HPI and VOSA before he completes the deal .If he fails to do that , he can't go back to the previous owner if he finds a problem afterwards .

Finally if a dealer sells a clocked car ,whether he knows it's clocked or not ,he commits a criminal offence ,the same rules simply don't apply to private sellers or part exchanges .

I would either ignore the dealer ,or write and tell him your not willing to consider any claim .He should have checked ,he didn't ! End of story .


Edited by tony g on 30/11/2013 at 13:18

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - bathtub tom

Could the dealer be suspicious that the OP's trying to con them?

The OP only had the car four months and then traded it in with an apparently fake service record.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Bromptonaut

OP might we wise to take an hour or two worth of legal advie but Tony G is on the right lines. IMO the dealer has made a mistake and is trying to bully and bluster the OP so as to get out of it.

A criminal prosecution would be brought by the CPS following a police investigaton. It would need to be shown, to a standard high enough for there to be a reasonable chance of conviction. that the OP acted with intent etc.

Even in a Civil case I think the dealer would be on dodgy ground unless he could prove intent on part of OP or that OP was reckless.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - evenflow

Thank you Tony, that gives me some comfort.

Dealer actually travelled 120 miles this morning and turned up on my doorstep unannounced suggesting that he take the car I bought from him back with him. I told him in no I uncertain terms that wasn't happening so he left.

Main issue seems to be the service history, which other than a stamp at 1200 miles, is entirely fictitious :(

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Andrew-T

Dealer actually travelled 120 miles this morning and turned up on my doorstep unannounced suggesting that he take the car I bought from him back with him. I told him in no I uncertain terms that wasn't happening so he left.

Main issue seems to be the service history, which other than a stamp at 1200 miles, is entirely fictitious :(

Not clear how old the car is, but if it has any MoT history that might show something? If the car had no MoTs during your ownership it won't be easy to tell exactly when it was clocked. Check online.

I agree, it does sound like bluster. Private buyers don't like buying clocked cars, dealers don't like being caught out when they shouldn't be.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - nortones2

Suggest move/conceal the car, to secure against a covert aid. Dealer may have keys etc.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - focussed

Suggest move/conceal the car, to secure against a covert aid. Dealer may have keys etc.

Yes good thinking - because then if he chances his arm to nick it back you then have the uncoperative plod to deal with who will not want to know and dismiss it as "a civil matter".

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - tony g
(Dealer actually travelled 120 miles this morning and turned up on my doorstep unannounced suggesting that he take the car I bought from him back with him. I told him in no I uncertain terms that wasn't happening so he left.)

That's bizarre , never heard of this before ,I would suggest you spend £50 having a solicitor write to the dealer telling him not to contact you again ,or you will consider it harassment .

The dealer screwed up ,depending on the age and value of the car ,I can't believe that the reduced value of the part exchange warrants this kind of behaviour .

The dealer has no chance of resolving this issue to his advantage .

Edited by tony g on 01/12/2013 at 00:36

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Simon

A bit of a sticky situation all round here. You had better keep your fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong with your 'new' car, as I don't think the dealer will honour any warranty obligations that he may have.

Maybe it is his fault for not checking first, but I do have some sympathy for him as whichever way you look at it, he has been done over.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - tony g
(Maybe it is his fault for not checking first, but I do have some sympathy for him as whichever way you look at it, he has been done over.)

Why would you feel sympathy for a car dealer who doesn't do his job properly ?

The two checks he should have done would have highlighted the problem before the transaction was completed .A VOSA check is free ,the HPI check costs dealers £5 .

In the very rare event ,the two checks didn't find the mileage problem ,a dealer then has the defence that he's done everything he could reasonably do before he sold a px car on .

If he hadn't done the checks at all ,he could have sold a clocked car to a member of the public like you !
Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Armitage Shanks {p}

If he has obligations honouring them is not optiona,l SFAIK

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - bathtub tom

Am I the only one here who thinks this seems dodgy?

The OP has a car for four months, then trades it in with a false service history and clocked!

I would be very cautious about buying a car from someone who's only had it that long and I'm not a dealer. What do the dealers here think?

The OP doesn't offer any explanations into the car's history, mileage and that fake service record, let alone why they had it for such a short time.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - RT

Am I the only one here who thinks this seems dodgy?

The OP has a car for four months, then trades it in with a false service history and clocked!

I would be very cautious about buying a car from someone who's only had it that long and I'm not a dealer. What do the dealers here think?

The OP doesn't offer any explanations into the car's history, mileage and that fake service record, let alone why they had it for such a short time.

Even more reason for the dealer to have done the checks himself.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - pd

Whilst the dealer should have checked it better, I hope no one here is advocating selling a car which is clocked and has a fake service history is a good thing.

That car will end up with someone else - no doubt the dealer will have to punt it through the auctions with mileage not warranted (but not incorrect if he has any sense) and the current history,

Legally, the seller is probably in the clear, morally they should feel guilty as they have knowingly or unknowngly stitched someone up.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - RT
Legally, the seller is probably in the clear, morally they should feel guilty as they have knowingly or unknowngly stitched someone up.

Why should he feel guilty if it was genuinely unknowingly ?

Of course, if the dealer had discovered the clocking before doing the deal, and told the OP then the OP would have been stuck with the suddenly down-valued car because he could no longer claim "unknowingly".

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Simon

If he has obligations honouring them is not optiona,l SFAIK

True, but would you assist someone who had knowingly or un-knowingly done you over???

I wouldn't!!!

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - pd

If he has obligations honouring them is not optiona,l SFAIK

If the car develops a fault, the dealer is within his rights to offer a full refund. So, car goes wrong, dealers says sure bring it back and you can have your px back!

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - Avant

"Main issue seems to be the service history, which other than a stamp at 1200 miles, is entirely fictitious :( "

Evenflow, if you're still looking in, you mentioned the above point only in a later post. Did you know this when you sold the car to the dealer? I agree with the others that, on the basis of your original post, the dealer can't get at you - but on this point he could have a civil case against you for misrepresentation if you implied to him that the car had FSH.

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - evenflow

I had NO idea the service history was seemingly fake! It was sold to me as having full main dealer service history, and I looked at the service book which had 6 stamps in. The dealer who took the part ex rang BMW (2 weeks after i sold it to him) who told him that they had only seen the car once (at 1200 miles) and the dealer code on the other stamps was fictitious.

Regarding me keeping the car 4 months, I had just exited an 11 year relationship, had received a bit of cash for my half of the house so bought a stupid sports car. Got it out of my system, which coincided with my daily commute going from 5 to 60 miles. That's why I traded it for a diesel!

Part-exed a "clocked" car?!?! - bathtub tom

OK evenflow, you have my sincere apologies.

I'm a cynical ole git and if you read your original post from my point of view, you may be able to see where I'm coming from. There's a lot of dodgy motors out there and it seems like you got one!

Where did you ge the car from?

I suggest you follow much of the advice above and good luck.

Again, apologies.