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Sun 28 Jul 2013 03:01

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

Bear with me on this long post folks.....Without wanting to get bogged down on why I would want to save ten quid, I would like some simple pro/con opinions of this proposal.

Most current VAG models now have the option of "variable" interval servicing which in the right conditions allows a motorist to go upto 30,000km (18,600 miles) / 2 years between oil changes. One snag is a DIYer cant easily support this as resetting the service indicator requires specialist equipment and the simple reset available switches the car back to fixed 15,000km/1 year intervals losing the built in oil monitoring and sensors(oil quality and even level I think)

Irregardless of what you might think of VAG'S variable regime, what would you think as a DIYer about just draining/changing the oil at 15,000km/1year BUT only changing the oil filter every second service?

The filter is obviously specced to do 30,000km/2 year duty - I have, in the past even seen VAG filters marked 30,000km/2year even though they had the standard part no. Whenever a filter is changed, oil is drained down completely meaning the oilways are emptied (the non return valve in the filter system would stop this when the filter is in place.) Hence that horrible 5 or so seconds when starting after an oil change waiting for the oil to build pressure and do its job. A period when, in my opinion, some damage is done to the engine.

Advantages (when filter not changed):

No potentially damaging priming period on initial start

Simpler/quicker oil change.

Less mess (used filters always are messy to handle)

Save a tenner

Save a bit of oil (on the non-filter change service)

Possibility of using cheaper oil?? (VW502.00 vs VW504.00 in petrol engines)

Disadvantages:

You only drain ~3/4 of the oil down when the filter is not changed so not a complete oil change. But still better than running on oil for up to 2 years?

Obviously all DIY servicing is going to affect resale value of the car - its an unknown quantity to a buyer - not concerned about that as I run cars for a long time.

The car I have in mind is a 1.2Tsi and does ~18,000 miles a year so would require 6 monthly oil changes..

What do you think?

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 03:11

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 08:58

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - jc2

You could fill the filter with oil before you put it on!

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 10:18

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Chris M

I think buy your oil from ECP when they are running one of their free oil filter offers.

Whilst you have your old clothes on, tools out, possibly jacked the car up, removed the undertray, got your hands dirty, why on earth wouldn't you change the filter as well? You are obviously concerned enough to believe in the benefits of more frequent oil changes, so why skimp?

And I can't see that those few seconds whilst the pressure builds after an oil change does much damage. There is still a coating of oil on the bearings and the engine isn't under load.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 13:23

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

You could fill the filter with oil before you put it on!

Not if the filter is fitted at top of engine pointing upwards!

And I can't see that those few seconds whilst the pressure builds after an oil change does much damage. There is still a coating of oil on the bearings and the engine isn't under load.

Ever listened to an enginestart with an unprimed oil system? Its painful, chains/pistons/big ends etc banging and clattering.....

As said above, if the oil filter is fitted the right way up pre fill it with oil, or crank the engine without it starting for a few seconds to wind some oil up.

And washing the bores with petrol during cranking? Removing spark leads would probably throw an ECU fault and stress coil paks. Removing spark plugs - shouldnt really be refitted due to compromised plug seal.

I wouldn't buy lower spec oil i would instead buy more of the best and it will work out as cheap as the other.

I generally use GM Dexos2 (4x5l deal from Vauxhall Dealers) which is excellent longlife synthetic oil but only officially specced for VW502.00 sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACE...l shows its almost as good as VW504.00 (better in some areas)

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 13:38

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 16:35

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Chris M

"Ever listened to an enginestart with an unprimed oil system? Its painful, chains/pistons/big ends etc banging and clattering....."

Many many times but over the life of an engine with thousands of cold starts, I doubt it makes any difference. There will still be oil covering most components.

"Removing spark leads would probably throw an ECU fault and stress coil paks."

Unlikely.

"Removing spark plugs - shouldnt really be refitted due to compromised plug seal."

I can see where you are coming from, but I've never heard advice to say you can't refit a spark plug. Fitted some NGKs a couple of weeks ago and there was nothing on the pack to suggest it's a bad idea and I'd have thought if it was, plug manufacturers would be only too willing to draw our attention to it.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 16:50

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

"Removing spark leads would probably throw an ECU fault and stress coil paks."
Unlikely.

"Removing spark plugs - shouldnt really be refitted due to compromised plug seal."

I can see where you are coming from, but I've never heard advice to say you can't refit a spark plug. Fitted some NGKs a couple of weeks ago and there was nothing on the pack to suggest it's a bad idea and I'd have thought if it was, plug manufacturers would be only too willing to draw our attention to it.

I'm pretty sure that modern VAG engines would throw the engine check light (granted it would go out after several clean starts) and past experience hastaught me that VAG coil paks can be delicate and dont like overvoltage which is what they would experience if the leads were removed. An expensive replacement on a 1.2tsi.

Plus cranking with plugs out allows unfiltered rubbish (especially that crud that gathers around spark plug holes) to be drawn into the cylinder.

Flooding with unburnt petrol may also be unhealthy for the CAT in addition to bore wash.....

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 16:57

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 10:25

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - gordonbennet

Brum, i thought such concern was for us old fools who live in the past..:-))...your plans sound good to me, except...

If you're going to perform an oil change do an oil change not part of one.

You're going to keep the car several years so find a good motor factor who sells Mann and Hummell or Mahle filters and get a good price by buying a pack (M&H for the Outlander is £3.60 for one at my factors), similarly look around for deals on good synthetic oil in larger quantities either in 4x5litre packs or 25 litre drums...i buy 25 litre drums of Millers full synthetic oils and they work out nearly half the price of the best prices for 5 litre drums.

Millers (who also have oils spec search on their website) and Fuchs make good oils, well worth finding and always available in drums, if you overspecify the oil it will almost certainly be fine for your next car if you don't use all on this one.

Some Vauxhall service desks offer excellent prices on 4x5litre packs but you'd need to check specs, other garages do similar my Toyota dealer offered 3 for 2 on 5 litre packs, lots of places to search....suggest you search on OPIE oils website for recommendations for your car first of all.

I wouldn't buy lower spec oil i would instead buy more of the best and it will work out as cheap as the other.

As said above, if the oil filter is fitted the right way up pre fill it with oil, or crank the engine without it starting for a few seconds to wind some oil up.

As for resale, if you are keeping the car for a long time then chances are you are selling privately, if you keep the receipts however you buy the stuff and keep a record of your servicing, then with the right advert and the right buyer you'll both be happy.

There's a whole army of us out there that think these extended service regimes are cobblers and only there to please fleet and lease buyers who couldn't give a stuff if the thing blows up at 90k miles, a well written advert stressing maintenance with receipts (bought each extra service time would be better for this record) backed up by car condition and an appropriate owner will see a satisfactory sale and two happy people, theres thousands of neglected cars out there, lots of us search for the gem among the dross.

Buy a new Toyota and it will still be on 9/10k or annual servicing, indeed that figure still stands in many countries where kilometres are used, but then Toyota stand by their product and others don't and there could be good reason.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 16:28

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

Whilst you have your old clothes on, tools out, possibly jacked the car up, removed the undertray, got your hands dirty, why on earth wouldn't you change the filter as well? You are obviously concerned enough to believe in the benefits of more frequent oil changes, so why skimp?

In most cases, I don't get much time to do servicing. My son cant seem to let me have his car for more an hour....

The good thing about (some) VAG petrols is you dont need to remove undertrays to drain oil. Its simple to reach the drainplug and can be done with good clothes on (not according to the wife! or not if you have to handle an oil filter spilling out old oil) and no need to jack the car up. Literally can be done in well under 5 minutes.

I am fairly convinced that the unprimed oilway startup is a period when significant damage can be done and if the oil filter is fit for 30,000km service why change it? (I would, however, always change the filter, if a visual examination on the dispstick showed the oil was, for any reason in poor or dubious condition.)

I have read (but not experienced thankfully) that rarely, but on occasion, an oil pump can air lock when fully drained, causing an extended period (up to 30 secs+) of no oil pressure!

Also, thinking about it, if the oilways and filter housings are drained down - leaving them full of air - then during that inital startup, wont just air be pumped around the engine (followed by the oil) and through the bearings etc?

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 16:40

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 16:48

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Andrew-T

I am fairly convinced that the unprimed oilway startup is a period when significant damage can be done and if the oil filter is fit for 30,000km service why change it? (I would, however, always change the filter, if a visual examination on the dispstick showed the oil was, for any reason in poor or dubious condition.)

I have always understood that the time to drain oil is when it is hot (or as hot as you can handle comfortably). There should then be no worry about any metal surfaces being unlubricated, whether you change the filter or not.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 16:56

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

I have always understood that the time to drain oil is when it is hot (or as hot as you can handle comfortably). There should then be no worry about any metal surfaces being unlubricated, whether you change the filter or not.

The problem is after a filter change, running the engine for several seconds without any oil pressure or air being forced through, the oil film may not be maintained adequately....( a colder engine but run briefly before the oil change may help here as the viscosity of the oil in the bearings etc would be thicker)

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 16:58

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 17:40

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Cyd

I get mine stinking hot before an oil change. Jack her up, pull the plug then leave it draining for about 20 minutes before flushing (taking care to cool the turbo adequately before shut down, of course).

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 17:28

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - bathtub tom

>>In most cases, I don't get much time to do servicing. My son cant seem to let me have his car for more an hour....

I'd suggest you tell him to let a garage do it and see what they say to that condition.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 17:37

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Cyd

Get yourself down to Halfords. They are doing 4l packs for £10. That's seriously cheap and makes for a great saving. I'm curently running my van and Saab on the purple one. It's 2k since the last change, but just today a bloke in the supermarket car park was asking me about my car because he couldn't believe how quiet it was. I do a double flush at each (4k) change.
www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchC...y**=165581&langId=-1&action=listrefine&scope=inl||partnumber||4||338720||338712||542326||338704&constraints=sor||Price||1&cm_re=10cms+slides-_-Slide+2-_-oiltv

Otherwise I have bought from here (still very good value):
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161058919427?ssPageName=STRK:ME...9

I disconnect the injector harness after a change, crank for 10 seconds, then reconnect the injectors to restart. That way there is no fuel going into the cat to poison it. Also bear in mind you are cranking a warm engine not a cold one and there will be some oil on the moving parts.

I always change the filter at oil changes. Partly because I do a flush too. I have a M&H filter that I've been using just for the flushes (change it after 5 flushes). I also run new oil back down the chamber to flush out the pump with fresh oil.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Comma-Flush-Out-Oil-5Litre-FREE...0

I'm not interested in the slightest about saving 10 quid on an oil change by skimping on parts (though I'll always look to get the parts at best price). I have a HOT engine tuned to 260 horses, pushing 17psi boost. Oil changes and flushes (along with coolant flush and the inclusion of water wetter mainly for the benefit of turbo cooling) are part of a preventative maintenance regime. A few filters and tubs of oil are way way cheaper than dealing with excess engine wear or snapped cam chains when the mileage gets up.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 19:07

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

Too OTT for me! I'm looking to discuss very simple quick and effective service regimes that I can DIY.

I would have thought that a very hot engine is NOT the time to change oil. Much more likely to drain all bearings dry and thermally shock the head etc when filling.

I'm not a believer in flushing oil (unless you have a grossly neglected engine ran on v. old mineral oil)

I get the oil at a very good price. Money is not an issue here.

So far I see no-one is keen on the extended filter change idea - fair enough and points taken.

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 19:19

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 19:29

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - madf

Very hot oil does not gauarantee all the crud is removed unless you tilt the sump so the drain hole is at the lowest side.. eg jack up the other side of the car. I found doing this on my Yaris d4d that I removed another 0.2 to 0.3 liters of dirty oil AND the new oil took longer to discolour as a result..

If you don't there will always be a film of oil and muck on the sump floor. In a well maintained and unworn engine this should not be much but there will always be some metal particles..

And if you are not changing the oil filter taht's another 0.5liters of oil in the filter and oilways that will remain dirty..

I have just changed the oil and filter in son's 201Yaris 1.0 which has done 125k miles. Still going strong if scruffy. Easy to do.. actual working time 10mins plus go away and wait to drain time 20 odd mins.. With the Halfords oil offer, fully synthetic oil plus filter £17.

Done annuaully(approx 9 k miles ).

Never flushed an engine as modern oils plus regular servicing means internals should be as new. (Last car I had oil sludge in was a Mark 3 Fiesta with 1/2inch sludge due to cold starts. Regualr oil changes sorted that out as well.)

Edited by madf on 28/07/2013 at 19:32

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 19:52

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Oli rag

Would have to agree , all the faff with engine flush can be avoided if you change the oil before it turns into a black syrup. I really think that double flushes and disconnecting injector harnesses are way over the top.

As most people don't do these things at a service,,I would expect engine failures to be very common if they were essential.

I do however agree that an early oil change is about the best thing you can do to a car to keep it in top condition.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 20:34

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - unthrottled

I would have thought that a very hot engine is NOT the time to change oil. Much more likely to drain all bearings dry and thermally shock the head etc when filling.

The thermal conductivity of oil is so low that thermal shock isn't an issue. I would be inclined to change the oil when hot because the oil will flow better and reach full lubrication within fewer rotations of the engine when you start it back up.

I would run the engine immediately prior to changing the oil so that there is at least some residual oil on the bores and cam lobes when you start it back up again.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 20:43

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - mss1tw

I would run the engine immediately prior to changing the oil so that there is at least some residual oil on the bores and cam lobes when you start it back up again.

I leave my cars and motorbikes runnning till the seconds before I drop the oil - mainly to keep it hot but that sounds like another benefit.

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 20:47

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

The thermal conductivity of oil is so low that thermal shock isn't an issue.

Its about a quarter that of water, but I still wouldnt be happy pouring 4 litres of cold oil into a hot engine and then starting it immediately with a big temperature difference between some engine parts and the oil.

But maybe having the new oil at room temperature during those "winter" changes may be a good idea.

Edited by brum on 28/07/2013 at 20:49

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Sun 28 Jul 2013 20:56

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - madf

The oil pump and oil galleries will be hot so the oile will have heated up when circulated.

I think this is OTT.. More thermal shiock from combustion.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 10:23

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - mustangman

When I had my tsi Golf, it was set to variable service interval.

Not trusting this I simply used a Pela 6000 to extract the oil through the dipstick tube. Very quick & clean, at about 9k miles. Ie: half the indicated service mileage.

Proper VW longlife spec oil can be obtained at around £ 35 / 5L from fleabay etc.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 12:23

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

I am tempted by the Pela (also had a look at the Mannesman electric pump) - but apart from cost and having another piece of junk cluttering the garage, the various tales of broken plastic tubing and bits of pipe falling into the sump put me off.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 12:57

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - skidpan

I am tempted by the Pela (also had a look at the Mannesman electric pump) - but apart from cost and having another piece of junk cluttering the garage, the various tales of broken plastic tubing and bits of pipe falling into the sump put me off.

I have a Pela and there is no way any parts could fall off it into the sump. Whoever said that is either on drugs or having a big laugh. Have a look at one and decide rather than believing what you read on the interweb etc. For starters the tube is not plastic.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 13:24

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - brum

Ok, I researched the PELA a bit more and it looks as if it uses a bowden cable sheath (brake cable outer) possibly finished off at the end with a rubber sleeve. Quite a few report that the plastic outer sheath can break off / disintegrate - I'm not surprised as I'm familar with these cables and that type of plastic is not really compatible with hot used oil and does go brittle with age/oil. And the rubber sheath?

Well its not for me - too many compromises and any possibilty of any bit of plastic or rubber becoming detached and left in the sump is enough to put me off.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 13:48

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - skidpan

Ok, I researched the PELA a bit more and it looks as if it uses a bowden cable sheath (brake cable outer) possibly finished off at the end with a rubber sleeve.

Mine is exactly as described but NO rubber sleeve. How can the bowden cable disintegrate, its beyond me.

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 14:49

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - Andrew-T

Well its not for me - too many compromises and any possibilty of any bit of plastic or rubber becoming detached and left in the sump is enough to put me off.

Someone on this thread seems to have a high pessimism level. Things do occasionally go wrong, and a reasonable risk assessment is in order, but ....

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Mon 29 Jul 2013 15:33

DIY servicing - Extended intervals - a proposal? - piggy

Well its not for me - too many compromises and any possibilty of any bit of plastic or rubber becoming detached and left in the sump is enough to put me off.

Someone on this thread seems to have a high pessimism level. Things do occasionally go wrong, and a reasonable risk assessment is in order, but ....

Skidpan is spot on. The Pela is a robust piece of kit. I have been carrying out mid term oil changes to our two cars for ten years or more with no issues about bits falling off. Just make sure the oil is hot,it will flow a lot easier with no chance of getting scalded as can happen with under sump oil changes. Also no need to remove the undertray.

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