Hi all
New to diesel ownership in the form of a 95 Xantia 1.9TD LX (91k). Love the car (dunno why, just do) but its a bit of a pig when cold.
After standing overnight I glow the plugs twice before attempting to start (though glowing once doesn't seem to make much difference). The car will always catch immediately but then runs rough for 15-20 seconds. Pumping the accelerator doesn't have an immediate effect and the engine struggles to rev.
After 20 seconds (without revving) the engine settles down and is fine. Starting after that point is also fine. The car has done 190 miles on just under 1/2 a tank which I'm assuming is on the low side. The oil is black and a change is next on my list of chores. It doesn't appear to burn oil though when it starts from cold a great cloud of smoke (I'd say blue smoke) is thrown out until engine settles. Can't see any sign of head gasket failure (no gunk on oil filler cap).
The glowplugs were apparently changed (according to service history) around 5000 miles ago.
I think the car is a little down on power as well. It pulls well in 1st and 2nd but in the higher gears the turbo kicking in is less noticeable and the most I've had out of it is 85mph (though I think it would do more given a longer run up).
I've thrown some Redex in the tank (single shot as I wasn't sure it would have any effect). Is it worth continuing with this stuff and should I throw more in. I was thinking it might unclog the injectors but I'm not sure if thats true/needs doing/how long it'll take.
From the messages and articles I've read here and on the net I reckon I've got one of three things wrong. Glowplugs, injectors or air leak. (or something major and horrible).
Can anyone narrow it down, or give me some idiot-proof tests I can carry out.
Thanks in advance
Mike
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 30/11/2009 at 19:12
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Mike,
Your fault sounds just like glowplugs. Never assume the plugs have all been replaced, or that the replacements work, or that they are the right grade unless you have actually checked.
The plug behind the injector pump is a pig to get to and often left unchanged, if that was faulty you would get these symptoms.
Also cheap glowplugs can be very poor from day one or fail quickly. Unless you can prove that you do have new working plugs of a decent make I'd get a new set of Beru from Andyspares before you worry about any other causes.
Oh I must mention as well as checking/changing the plugs do get a voltmeter onto the feed and check you have a proper pre-start and post-start 12V feed from the relay box.
MM
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Mike
On the subject of oil and filter, yes you should probably change them and do it again in another 5000 miles. But don't be alarmed when the oil goes black within 200 miles of the change. That's quite normal.
Chris
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A couple of points:
I had my car 96 Xantia diesel serviced in Germany - mainly to get the 12 months mobility / breakdown cover offered by the dealers.
I fell off my chair when I saw the dealer price of semi-synthetic oil used as standard over there, but have continued to use it as the engine runs much smoother: and no smoke whatsoever.
Perhaps the previous owner used cheap and nasty non-diesel specific oil.
My experience of German autobahns is that 85-90 mph is the right sort of cruising speed, say a max of 3200 rpm, as the engine will be running at 4000 revs or so to reach the ton. Not exactly relaxed cruising.
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l run a 405 1.9td which l believe is the same or very similar engine to the xantia , l had a similar starting problem, car would start ok but idle uneven and would smoke for a while, change of glow plugs solved the problem. Change all 4.
Duggie
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Just done the same job on my 98 306DT (conrods still intact - what happened to that thread?). Problem solved, though Halfords glow plugs definetly not as good as Bosch originls
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Mike -
Sounds like your Xantia just needs a good service! A lot of diesel engine problems can be overcome just by replacing the air filter element and fuel filter element, along with the oil and oil filter. Diesel engines (especially French ones!) last a very long time.
How many miles has it done? I've got a Skoda Octavia 1.9D approaching 140,000 miles, good as new, and a Peugeot 405 1.9TD with 370,000 miles and no major engine work yet! My old Mondeo 1.8TD made 382,000 miles before the turbo gave up, and I sold a Cavalier 1.7TD last year with 182,000 miles on the clock to a guy who only wanted the engine out of it!
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Doh, just re-read your post and noticed the "91k" bit. However, look at the "clocked?" thread about people's expectations of cars and recorded mileages...
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I guess you're suggesting 91000 might not be kosher on a 1995 car, huh =)
Had it checked by a hidden history company who said it was clean, no write-offs, etc. Apart from that, even if it has been clocked theres sweet FA I can do about it. The service history/MOT ties up with the mileage. But then if they disconnected the speedo it would.
The clutch rubber is worn (I would expect them to change it if they were trying to hide something), but the seats/etc are tidy and no shiny wheel...
Ah well, as long as it starts (with the new glow plugs winging their way to me from Andyspares) I guess its not worth worrying about. I was just after something cheap and cheerful to poodle around in, its likely to do less than 5000 a year with me so who knows. It could be a genuine gem, ahem....
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I know it's a point of argument but you could try some Millers diesel additive. Since putting some in my Rover it seems smoother. This won't cure your starting problem but it may clean things up that could have been neglected. I'm not sure if I'll buy any more when the current lot runs out, I'll have to see how goes. At £6.50 for the bottle it was worth a go!
Steve.
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I've just treated it to a new air filter (Champion, looked at K & N but can't justify the cost! Anyone disagree?), and a fuel filter (though yet to fit that). Also poured a bottle of Wynns into the tank.
Haven't done many miles yet, but the air filter seems to have improved the power, its moving through the rev range faster and pulls smoothly.
Glow plugs should arrive tomorrow so fuel filter and glow plugs should complete the service, apart from the oil change.
Next big thing'll be the spheres as the ride is certainly not 'magic carpet', more dirty doormat...
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention. Had a closer look at the existing glowplugs. They are all shiny and new looking, god knows how you get to some of them! They're NGKs...
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You should be aware that just because a glowplug heats up doesn't mean it's working correctly, it's down to several factors including how much of it heats up and from where it starts. For more info you could checkout this link -
www.beru.com/english/produkte/gluehkerzen/dreiphas...p
My diesel wasn't starting well, even though only one plug was 'open' circuit. However on swapping all four it starts like a dream, two of the plugs were quite sooty, which I suppose would cut down on the heating effect.
Steve.
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I am thinking of buying a Skoda Octavia with the 1.9Tdi diesel engine. I have had reports that this engine tends to burn oil. My present car, a Citroen Xsara, with the 2.0HDi engine requires no topping up between services. What is your experience with the Skoda?
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Hi,
I'm a vehicle technician and the symptoms you describe sound to be normal on start-up. Diesels that have any mileage tend to cough and splutter a bit on start-up. It's worthwhile having the air filter and fuel filter changed as these do adversely affect the optimum running. as for the max 85 mph, I'd be a bit worried about that. My peugeot 406 estate, which has the same engine will easily do 110+. Go for the filter changes first as these are the cheapest option and I've found they usually cure most ill's. Give the redex the elbow as it may clog the injectors. Use a good injector cleaner additive if you're worried about them. Changing the air filter is very simple but the fuel filter needs to be done by someone familiar with diesels as the air has to be 'bled' out of the system afterwards.
Hope this helps!!!
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Rough running, or smoke, on start up are NOT normal for diesels of any (or high) mileage. Roughness/stalling more a characteristic of petrols. Also I am no mechanic but had absolutely no problem following the Haynes instructions to change the fuel filter on our '91 BX which starts first time every time, no smoke.
I'd suspect (1) the glowplugs or (2) air in the system so check for leaks between the tank and the pump. The metal fuel pipes are prone to rust and the flexible sections to perishing- any sign of a leak?.
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Check for air leak by putting a length of transparent hose between fuel filter and pump. If lots of bubbles put hose before the fuel filter. This will tell you if leak is in filter housing. Leak on my BX which caused identical symptoms was where metal fuel pipe came out of fuel heater behind the engine - easy to bypass and I presume is similar on Xantia. By the way my '91 BX, 140k now starts first time with no smoke.
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The lack of high speed/power could be a collapsing air intake hose. Worth a check.
Steve.
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In my experience, Peugeot TD fuel filter easy to bleed, Mondeo TD fuel filter absolute nightmare to get right 1st time. So the Xantia should be ok to do. Skoda fuel filter, I pay a man to do it for me :-)
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Ok. I still haven't fitted the glow plugs (or figured out how without dismantling half the engine, going to a diy shop to look for useful tools to get around the bits and bobs...); however thats just going to affect the cold starting right?
My other concern is that it seems a bit gutless. Now this could be me having moved from a 2.0 petrol 4x4, but it seems ok it lower gears. I wasn't expecting breathtaking performance, but with the wind behind it (v strong wind) I got it up to 95, into the wind 80. The turbo kicks in and the car pulls well in 1st and second, but is less noticeable in 3rd and almost non-existent in 4th and 5th.
I have changed the air and fuel filter now. Am I being optimistic about turbo diesel Xantias at speeds 50+ or should the turbo being doing more work.
Any simple tests I can do?
How much would a fuel specialist charge to look over it? (Salesmen add zeroes to their proces when they see me coming =) )
Oh yeah, in 5th I can't get engine above 3000rpm. Is that normal?
Other niggles are gearbox crunch on 4th to 3rd if revs are high. Is that related.
Apologies for long post, but I know little and want to know all
8)
Mike
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Mike,
Xantia TD is no sports car, but it shouldn't be a slouch either. It should easily hit a ton (where allowed, officer!) in top. You could try looking and seeing if any of the turbo hoses are loose under the bonnet, particularly that the small tube that runs from the trunking to the top of the injection pump is intact - this is the sensor that tells the pump to dump more diesel in when you get more boost. Assume you have checked the obvious - tyre pressures, brakes binding?? Crunch 4th - 3rd is unusual, and probably indicates a worn snychro unit in the 'box. Check the clutch adjustment - should be 150mm +/- 10mm pedal movement, and also check / change the gearbox oil. Check also that you are getting full throttle at the pump end of the cable when you put your foot to the floor - the operating lever should come up against a stop on the pump.
Richard
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Mike,
When you get the thing back together warm it up then see what maximum revs you can get in third (or at rest in the drive if you can stand it!) before the gov' cuts in...that may tell us something.
Some folks will be rude about the Xantia TD performance but that will mislead you. It should be happy to nip between 70-95mph as the traffic flow dictates in a country where it is legal to do so.
For now check the throttle pedal is getting the full movement on the injector pump lever. You will see a clip that goes into a variety of plastic serrations on the cable end. Someone could move this in seconds to lose the top end of the throttle travel.
The clutch fault is unrelated and may need adjustment, we can take you through that later.
MM
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Ok, don't need to tell me twice to take my car out for a thrash (grins).
Happen to live on a slip road to the A1 so one thrashing in 3rd later....
3rd gear, max rpm = 4650, speed at max rpm = 70 mph
re gear crunch, I can live with that, I change 4th to 2nd now when braking...
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Just stuck my head under the bonnet again, though its dark and cold now so couldn't see much.
The throttle cable is attached to a black (plastic?) swing arm thing which is in turn attached to the metal throttle bit. I can swing the black thing through a angle of 50 odd degrees either way without feeling resistance from the throttle cable. Alternatively I can pull the throttle cable around 1/2 an inch without feeling resistance.
I guess thats too much play, right?
Mike
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Ooo, thats better. Adjusted out play and now get 95 on my independent test track (ahem). More responsive. And so simple...
8P
Mike
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Mike,
At least Richard and I were of one mind so you can see the advice is sound.
;-)
All you need is a couple of mm free play at the cable end clip so you ensure the idle speed is determined by the pump stops not the cable holding up the idle.
To be honest above 95 you might need a bit of a run to gain any more speed, they do ease off a bit after that...I'm told.
MM
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Mike - it's a bit late to say this now, but when I got my 306 HDi last June the throttle cable had ½-inch of slack in the adjuster (the serrated tube with the spring clip). I can't imagine why or how it had got there, but it certainly made the pedal feel sluggish!
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Ok. After much swearing, and the loss of an 8mm socket in the engine bay somewhere I have now changed the glow plugs for Beru. Starting is instantly better, no chugging, catches first turn of the key.
Its still a bit ropey if I rev it, is there something else I can tinker with? I have vague recollections of a cold idle thingy, is it worth checking that out?
ta muchly for help so far...
Mike
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Oh yeah, far less smoke as well...
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There is a cold start advance, or some such, on the Bosch pump in my xantia. It's connected to a waxstat in the coolant thermostat housing by a cable.
It doesn't work.
When things are very cold (like this morning) if I manually move the lever on the pump the engine revs increase slightly and the engine does run a little smoother, slightly less knock.
It's quite common for the waxstat to fail and not be replaced, as a result the lever on the pump can then seize up.
I now need the replace the thermostat in mine as it's running rather cool, when I do that I'll probably fix this, up until now I just couldn't be bothered. Might be worth a look on yours.
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I suggest you try and find the 8mm socket. I did exactly the same with an 8mm spanner when doing my 306. Fortunatetly (after 2 hours of trying) I found the thing stuck behind the alternator bracket right next to the belts. If I hadn't it would probably have been good bye loads of money.
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Middleman (David I think).
you asked me to check the max rpm in 3rd (or on driveway). Out of interest, Haynes says Maximum Engine Speed is 5100 rpm(ish).
Is that what the max rpm should be in the check or should I get a slightly restricted value, say 49xx.
I just wanted to know the answer I 'should' get (I got 4650, but haven't tested again since adjusting slack out of accel cable).
Ta in advance
Mike
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Mike,
(Yes it is)
No load will be about 5000rpm, on the road most limit at about 4700-4800 so yours was not too far out.
Funny thing happened to mine yesterday. Overtaking two artics in one go in third and at about 4400rpm when there was a muffled pop and the power fell away...I thought the engine was going to cut out.
In split seconds my mind raced over possibilities, engine failure...fuel supply blockage...timing belt etc. I discounted these knowing the whole thing is in tip top order and because it didn't actually stop. One thing came to mind as it seemed to be running about 30% down on power...turbo failure.
As soon as I could stop I found one of the hoses between turbo and intercooler had blown off and it was running without boost.
In the three miles I drove with the turbo off the car was smooth and cruised fine at 60mph but was flat as a pancake if you tried to gain speed.
Yours anything like that?
MM
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The car is going in today to have the rear spheres changed (didn't fancy doing them myself as although the instructions look easy the warnings about cars dropping several inches without warning and the slope on my drive put me off).
At the moment my cars symptoms for all niggles are:
Cold starting:
When weather really cold, engine runs rough for 5-10 secs. No smoke to speak of unless engine revved in which case small white cloud. Rest of day car is fine. Pumping the hand pump til hard and cold starting does not improve things.
[Going to check cold start idling this am]
Hydraulics
Drivers side rear has no give in suspension at all. Rises and lowers fine, no squeaks or groans. Have assumed sphere stuffed, replacing both rears today.
Brakes
Haven't really noticed this for a while but the brakes (non-ABS) will fade in and out. If (1) is no braking and (5) is full braking then slowing for a roundabout would feel like this:
5 5 5 2 3 4 5 2 3 4 5 2 3 4 5 2 3 4 5
Makes me a bit sea sick. It doesn't seem as bad since I juggled the car higher and lower and twisted the steering about so I'm assuming its the notrogen from the sphere in the hydralic system(?) Once spheres have been changed I'm going to throw hydraflush in and bleed off the brake lines.
Engine Power/Turbo
I've never had a diesel before, or a Turbo so I've no idea what good examples and bad examples sound or go like.
My Turbo whistles quite loud in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but can't be heard in 4th and 5th. Power delivery is good in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and getting to 50-odd is probably taking about the right sort of time, say 9-10 secs. Once you change into 4th the urgency in the acceleration eases off, the car will slowly accelerate to 70 before I'd normally change into 5th. Once in 5th the car will do 90-odd if pushed but you need a lot of road as it takes a while.
MM, if you had reasonable accel to get to 60 but no oomph above then thats pretty much exactly my symptoms. I'' have a peek under the car/bonnet and see if I can figure out what hoses I need to check and check them for leaks/splits.
The trouble with Haynes manuals is they assume you know what and where each bit of the engine is. I end up playing pin the tail on the donkey holding a photo to various bits of the engine to find the right screws/etc.
Turbo hoses, run from the turbo to the intercooler. Intercooler is the radiator thing with the big fat hoses at the front of the engine, right? The turbo I'd guess is under the car at the back of the engine in the exhaust system(?)
Monster post, sorry people. I may not know what I'm talking about but boy can I talk.
Mike
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M
Cold starting: OK you've got decent glow plugs and it is a good starter except for 5secs of chugging. This is close to OK but do check that cold fast idle device is holding the revs up at first then releasing the idle to normal. Also try not turning the key to start until 4 secs after the light has gone out rather than doing two glowplug cycles.
Hydraulics: New rear spheres will transform the ride if they were almost flat. What about the fronts?
Brakes: This on-off feel is very common. Try bleeding them first. After that there is another dodge I'm going to try soon and that is to remove the spring from the pedal rod. This was only put there to make the brakes feel "normal" to non-Citroen folks. I understand removing it will stop the last bits of annoying pulsing. I do not advise you do this, merely mention it!
Engine Power/Turbo: Are you sure that comparisons with faster cars aren't giving a false impression of sluggishness. Someone familiar with the 1.9TD would soon tell you. Is yours an estate? Do look at the turbo hoses though.
Intake air route is...Air intake behind headlamp-air cleaner-rubber elbow hose-plastic tube-turbo-plastic tube-heavy rubber hose-intercooler-heavy rubber hose-plastic tube-short rubber joiner-inlet manifold.
Intercooler is in front of the coolant radiator.
A rough check for a working turbo is to get the engine warm and then rev it while looking at the rubber hoses to/from the intercooler, you'll see them swell a little with the boost pressure.
You can also easily tee in a pressure gauge (0-20psi range)to the small bore hose that goes to the injector pump from the inlet hose and see what boost pressure you're getting.
MM
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Afternoon all,
Firstly what an entertaining thread!
I have been having similar problems with my 306 D Turbo 1998 registered done about 97k miles.
I would get a lot of smoke on starting and recently i have had to pu tmy foot to the floor to get it to start. I nipped to the train station to drop a friend off and came home fine, drives like a dream. Then i went to go to the shops, got in, put on seat belt, turned on glow heaters and lights and radio as normal. When i turned the key to start it all the electrics went off. I tried again and was all dead, i checked the battery and all was connected fine and its a new battery, i tried the door locks and they worked. Tested again and the same happened, no electrics. i locked all the doors manually and left it. Tried again this morning and nothing.
A few people have said it could be the glow plugs especially with the cloud of blue smoke on starting from cold, could they also screw with the electrics if faulty. Im positive they havnt been changed in the 3 years i have owned the car as the only service i didnt do wast that expensive.
Thanks for your help guys.
Dean
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Hey! Dean with the 306. I had that problem with my Xantia last christmas and it took ages to work out what was wrong - it was intermittent, but eventually the only way we could get the car working again was with a new battery. Happily old battery was still in warranty so I got a better battery at a discount price.
Have been messing around with the Xantia today, wondering if I could get some pep back into her (1994 Turbo D with 162k miles!), having previously tried injector cleaning gunk etc, and she gets new oil and filters every 5k or so... Turns out that all the turbo hoses have come a bit loose (hence oily messy air making a sticky engine bay - doh!). Tightened everything up and feels almost as fresh as when I bought her, 5 years ago at 130k.
You might consider AEP direct for parts, the spheres especially are pretty cheap, have 2 year warranty and are the same brand as Citroen use, apparently. The rear ones I got are too soft for 'round these parts, so you might consider getting BX spheres for a slightly firmer ride.
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