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The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - leaseman

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The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - leaseman

This is my first attempt at following my mentor, Xileno's very detailed instructions to create a new Volume (13) in this long debated subject.

Apologies if it hasn't gone correctly as I started the quest at 03.50 this morning so as to cause minimum disruption.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - SLO76
Currently on a wee winter break at Centre Parcs Penrith with SWMBO’s 40kwh Leaf and family waggon Merc. No problems at all coming down the road, with only one lunch stop and 40 minute fast charge required. On arrival you take your booked EV charger parking spot, which is yours for your stay. Charging costs are reasonable, but the public fast charger cost substantially more than filling with petrol or diesel which meant that despite the initial cheap £2.70 home charge the whole journey cost the same as the Merc took in petrol.

We rarely use the Leaf to go long distance like this, but increasingly hotels and holiday resorts are getting their act together regarding EV charging. The public fast chargers seem to be increasingly reliable, and despite the Leafs Betamax CHAdeMO charger there’s fewer people using them on the motorways than with more modern EV’s so we are noticing they’re always available according to the app.

Range is substantially poorer in winter weather, and the demister needs to be run almost constantly to keep the windscreen clear. But as per the norm it is comfortable, totally dependable, practical and very quiet. New Dunlops on the front have helped with the lack of traction and front end grip.

It is a more time consuming trip however as EV’s don’t like sitting at sustained higher speeds so don’t buy an EV is you spend a lot of time in the outside lane on motorways as the range plummets at 65mph plus.

The Merc by comparison averaged just under 47mpg at this leisurely rate, and was very comfortable. It won’t require topping up at all for bith legs of the trip

Edited by SLO76 on 03/12/2024 at 07:00

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

What is the current thinking about the best way to 'use' an EV battery ? I understood that it's the number of charging cycles, rather than just the extraction of charge, that tires out a battery long-term ? Isn't there a kind of 20-80 recommendation saying that it is best to work within those charge limits, rather than trying to top up to 100% each time ? Especially as the last 10% takes the longest.

Although I have no need or intention to get an EV, I recently inherited an iPhone and had its battery replaced. A few simple experiments showed the expected sigmoid charging curve from 30 to 100%, which took a bit under 3 hours. So I have decided not to charge overnight, but let it run down to 30 or 40 before putting it on charge for a couple of hours back to 80 or 90%. I guess the same 'rule' would apply for an EV - but that is subject to rather different demands :-)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - movilogo

Phone & car battery charging situations are different.

I typically charge my phone when it is down to 5-10% (if I'm at home). If having to go out, I know I can charge it inside car.

I would not go out in an EV with 5% charge remaining. When I refuel my car, I always fill up to full tank. The time it takes from 80% to 100% full is just few seconds - not something EVs can match, yet.

EV’s don’t like sitting at sustained higher speeds

Government should re-introduce motorail scheme where EV owners can carry (& charge) their cars inside freight trains to reach their destination with full charge.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - RT

EV’s don’t like sitting at sustained higher speeds

Government should re-introduce motorail scheme where EV owners can carry (& charge) their cars inside freight trains to reach their destination with full charge.

Might as well just use a passenger train and hire a car at destination.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

<< Might as well just use a passenger train and hire a car at destination. >>

I suppose so, if trains go between your personal A and B ?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - pd

Government should re-introduce motorail scheme where EV owners can carry (& charge) their cars inside freight trains to reach their destination with full charge.

I can't see much demand for that in the UK. London to Glasgow is just over 400 miles so in quite a few EVs you'd now be looking at one stop. Even in a shorter range, older EV you'd probably do it in 3 or 4 stops. OK, so maybe not as convenient as being able to do it without a refuel at all but not a compelling argument I think for using a motor-rail train.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

I can't see much demand for that in the UK. London to Glasgow is just over 400 miles so in quite a few EVs you'd now be looking at one stop. Even in a shorter range, older EV you'd probably do it in 3 or 4 stops. OK, so maybe not as convenient as being able to do it without a refuel at all but not a compelling argument I think for using a motor-rail train.

400 miles without stopping - six hours minimum, probably nearer 7-8 depending on traffic, road works etc.

Cast iron bladder territory unless fitted with a catheter. Caffeine levels also running low.

So one stop, possibly two, would be both desirable and sensible. Ideally need at least 200 mile reliable range.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - RT

I can't see much demand for that in the UK. London to Glasgow is just over 400 miles so in quite a few EVs you'd now be looking at one stop. Even in a shorter range, older EV you'd probably do it in 3 or 4 stops. OK, so maybe not as convenient as being able to do it without a refuel at all but not a compelling argument I think for using a motor-rail train.

400 miles without stopping - six hours minimum, probably nearer 7-8 depending on traffic, road works etc.

Cast iron bladder territory unless fitted with a catheter. Caffeine levels also running low.

So one stop, possibly two, would be both desirable and sensible. Ideally need at least 200 mile reliable range.

Just how much, or how little, energy can be restored in a 5-10 minute comfort break - caffeine isn't a neccessity, indeed it's harmful in several common health conditions.

Work on the basis of truckers limits - 30 mins every 4.5 hours driving with a 15 minute stop half way through - when EV car range can cope with that cruising at the 70 mph motorway limit with no brake regeneration then I'll be in the market for an EV

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
I depends on how you’re charging it - if it’s a mid-journey charge on a rapid charger, the most time efficient way is 20-80.
If it’s on an AC charger, take it to 90% on a routine basis, 100% if you need the full range for the next journey. That said, the later LFP batteries are more tolerant of being fullly charged, use fewer rare earths and have a greater lifespan in terms of charge cycles.
The downside is that they’re currently slightly less energy dense than the older NMC.
Depending on the model of IPhone, incidentally, it will learn your daily routine and adapt its charge speed accordingly. Once it gets to know that it’s not in use overnight, it’ll charge very slowly in those quiet periods, keeping the battery temperature lower.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - SLO76
Think the only real issues to avoid are leaving it fully charged for any extended length of time or equally leaving it with too low a charge. I typically charge overnight at home to 90-95% then charge it again at 25-30%. It only gets completely filled when we’re going longer distances. Fast chargers are best kept to under 90% as the charge rate slows dramatically at this point.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - pd

Ideally you shouldn't charge to 100% and then leave a car sitting for ages at 100% charge. However, if a car is in regular use then I wouldn't worry too much about always charging to 100%, it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

Note very few (any?) cars actually charge all the way to 100% regardless of what the indicator may read. Most actually charge to 95-97%. In general modern battery management is pretty good and I would just charge as you wish and let the BMS sort it out.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - movilogo

This is a short video (under 6 minutes) explaining why China is marching ahead on EV.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW_SXIVQT5I

The summary is, Europe was expert in making ICE engines while China is way ahead in making batteries.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
Just come across the latest data from Tesla (they’ve the largest data set of all EV manufacturers) and it’s showing a 15% degradation after 200,000 miles in their Models 3 and Y. The earlier Models S and X, interestingly, fared a little better at a 12% loss.

It’s working out at approximately 1% per 13,333 miles, or 1% every 53 theoretical full charge cycles (based on 250 miles per charge cycle).

A car in Europe is recycled after, on average, 150,000 miles.

If anyone fancies a bit of light reading, here’s their impact report - www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2023-tesla-impact-report.p...f
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy
Just come across the latest data from Tesla (they’ve the largest data set of all EV manufacturers) and it’s showing a 15% degradation after 200,000 miles in their Models 3 and Y. The earlier Models S and X, interestingly, fared a little better at a 12% loss. It’s working out at approximately 1% per 13,333 miles, or 1% every 53 theoretical full charge cycles (based on 250 miles per charge cycle). A car in Europe is recycled after, on average, 150,000 miles. If anyone fancies a bit of light reading, here’s their impact report - www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2023-tesla-impact-report.p...f

I wonder how much of that data is skewed towards the huge historical market in the US, particularly California where miles driven is far larger than in Europe and under nice warm sunny skies? The report doesn't exactly give the breakdown, especially as most Telsas in Europe have been made/bought in the last few years.

Apparently (from what I read a couple of years ago, if I recall) over in the US there are still problems sourcing spare parts for older Teslas, where supposedly 'dealerships' also give customers owning them the cold shoulder at the 10 year mark, refusing to maintain them.

Sound to me a bit like what happens with household white goods, computers, tablets and mobile phones. That was one of Jeremy Clarkson's biggest gripes about EVs, aside from them being 'soleless' - saying that they are rather like household white goods.

Ironically with such things, nowadays they appear to have smaller lifespans 'designed in' to encourage people to buy replacements, which is hardly 'green'.

What would be far better, especially for EVs, is for them to be very 'modular' so that you could 'swap out' broken or 'tired' old components, even a body shell and the interior, whereby the old parts would be (hopefully easily) recycled.

I suspect we're still quite a way away from that, especially as many components (like the batteries) are incredibly labour and energy intensive to recycle, not helped by many parts using rare earth metals hoarded by few and/or very unpleasant nations, and or mined using slave/child labour and/or in terrible working conditions.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - SLO76
Pulled into the depot this evening in an ageing Optare Solo and found a shiny new ADL E100 electric bus being delivered. This is our latest attempt at going electric and hopefully it’ll be much more reliable and more capable than the two Sigma 8’s and electric Merc Sprinter we currently have on the fleet. It will be partly fed by a huge new solar array adorning the depot roof. All very green and something I hugely support. Staff are being encouraged to lease electric cars through a tax beneficial work scheme and can charge them cheaply too.

Sadly too many drivers are openly hostile to electric vehicles and refuse or are unable to adapt their driving style to get the best out of them. The smaller Merc we have can do 160/170 miles driven well, or 110/120 driven badly, attitude makes a huge difference. I like it, it’s lively off the mark and much quieter for passengers, but due to the disappointing range it’s mostly used for school runs and as a spare vehicle.

As for the new bus, it looks very pleasant, fresh and modern. I’ve yet to have a shot, but already there’s fear among the drivers due to the cost of the thing (£360,000) and who’s going to be the first to take some paint off it.

Will report on how it drives shortly, hopefully without pranging it.

Edited by SLO76 on 12/12/2024 at 20:40

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy
The smaller Merc we have can do 160/170 miles driven well, or 110/120 driven badly, attitude makes a huge difference.

What's the range of a 'normal' (diesel ICE) bus of that size for comparison. 170 miles doesn't look that far for a bus route over a day

I'm surprised that (non battery, but electric) trams and trolley buses haven't ever been considered again as an alternative, which then would remove the issue of battery fires, range and charging, battery life and replacement cost issues.

I mean, it's not as though anyone at this point is considering battery electric trains.

As a side note, I remember back in my days at university working on an ongoing project to design a flywheel-powered bus, rather like a 'hot wheels' toy car, charged up at each bus stop. If I recall, it appeared to be better suited to areas with lighter traffic levels and more space for the equipment at the roadside than really congested cities with little space. Still...

Micro EVs - movilogo

There are some micro EVs like these.

You can see reviews of each in YouTube.

  1. Dogwood Zero [soon to be sold in UK @ £5500, 2 seater]
  2. Geely Panda Mini - £4500
  3. Wuling Mini - £3400

I think to make EVs popular, government should focus on low end segment on the market rather than expecting common public to spend £30k+ on EVs.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - alan1302
The smaller Merc we have can do 160/170 miles driven well, or 110/120 driven badly, attitude makes a huge difference.

What's the range of a 'normal' (diesel ICE) bus of that size for comparison. 170 miles doesn't look that far for a bus route over a day

I'm surprised that (non battery, but electric) trams and trolley buses haven't ever been considered again as an alternative, which then would remove the issue of battery fires, range and charging, battery life and replacement cost issues.

I mean, it's not as though anyone at this point is considering battery electric trains.

As a side note, I remember back in my days at university working on an ongoing project to design a flywheel-powered bus, rather like a 'hot wheels' toy car, charged up at each bus stop. If I recall, it appeared to be better suited to areas with lighter traffic levels and more space for the equipment at the roadside than really congested cities with little space. Still...

Errm:

news.siemens.co.uk/news/siemens-british-battery-tr...y

I think the lack of trams/trolley bues is the expensive inital costs of track/electric lines etc. Also trams/trolley buses are limited to where they can go whilst a EV bus can go anywhere it can fit.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - barney100

Trolley buses were common in Bradford, I reckon they couldn't go every where now but could could take a lot of passengers from city centres to suitable suburbs.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - SLO76
“ What's the range of a 'normal' (diesel ICE) bus of that size for comparison. 170 miles doesn't look that far for a bus route over a day”

More than double that, but the typical mileage covered by our dial a bus services is 120-150 miles so driven properly it can cover this and one of our service routes that is around 140 miles.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - edlithgow

Sailing couple who modified their boat with an ex-Nissan Leaf battery pack wash up dead on the Canadian coast.

Lost at Sea Sailing Couple From YouTube Dies in Life Raft - Ep 308 - Lady K Sailing

AFAIK no forensic evidence for a lithium battery fire, but thats the speculation, and an idea quite a lot scarier than a fire in a small boat already is

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Ethan Edwards

The addition of all those solar panels made it look top heavy to me. Un-seaworthy.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - edlithgow

The addition of all those solar panels made it look top heavy to me. Un-seaworthy.

Re the panels I'd also be (more) concerned about the windage,which you cant counterbalance with battery ballast (though lots of newer boats fit solar arrays on arches and/or rigid canopies) but either way, there would have to be fairly severe weather for it to be a survival issue, and severe weather is not mentioned in that report.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - misar

On the topic of electric buses, London has a new "IETRAM" Bus which is fully charged overnight at the garage but gets a topup at the end of each trip from a specially adapted bus stop. The stop has a pantograph arm which swings over the bus and provides enough charge in about 6 min for the next 15.7 mile trip (longest of TfL's routes).

Edited by misar on 15/12/2024 at 16:46

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

The stop has a pantograph arm which swings over the bus and provides enough charge in about 6 min for the next 15.7 mile trip (longest of TfL's routes).

Very reminiscent of adding water to a steam engine .... :-)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy

The stop has a pantograph arm which swings over the bus and provides enough charge in about 6 min for the next 15.7 mile trip (longest of TfL's routes).

Very reminiscent of adding water to a steam engine .... :-)

...or a certain DeLorean doing 88mph near a clock tower... ;-)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - expat

The stop has a pantograph arm which swings over the bus and provides enough charge in about 6 min for the next 15.7 mile trip (longest of TfL's routes).

I saw a similar system in use in Spain where trams got recharged that way. No need for miles of overhead wiring. I think it was in Seville.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - focussed

Tesla Model S selected as example.

Conclusion

"The GB electricity grid is already facing stresses towards the end of this decade from retirements of nuclear and gas generation, as well as the growing difficulties with managing grid stability as the proportion of intermittent renewable generation increases. However, the highly ambitious Clean Power 2030 plan magnifies these dangers significantly. Gas plant retirements could be accelerated, and even if new renewables are built, they do not work when it’s not windy or sunny, and the grid infrastructure to ensure they can be fully utilised is very unlikely to be completed on time. The country is not sleep-walking into a security of supply disaster – under CP2030, it is running headlong into it"

watt-logic.com/2025/02/02/blackout-risks-in-the-gb.../

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - SLO76
The solution to the problem could come from Electric vehicles. They typically charge overnight when demand is low and once they've taken you to work or brought you home you could (with the right tech) plug it in and use the cars battery pack to power the house or flow direct to the grid during peak demand. Our Leaf allows for this but the dual directional charging points aren’t available in the UK for some weird reason.

Use the ever increasing capacity of EV’s as backup storage for the grid. It’s not that complex to introduce, the tech is already available and isn’t particularly costly. The will and knowledge are all that are required.

I can plug our Leaf in at home and at work so it could be earning its keep when stationary and helping secure the countries power network.
Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - madf

"Will there be enough power to charge your EV ?"

is the wrong question.

It will be "Can you afford to recharge your EV?"

Why? Because the capital investments talked of - Mainly the National Grid £70B but others as well - are likely to double the cost of electricity...and maybe more.

The people involved are acting like dumbos = spend and do sums later.. Or liars ..know the results and not telling.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Adampr

And yet, our electricity consumption continues to decline since 2005. And we continue to import and export electricity to balance loads.

The National Grid needs investment because, just like pretty much everything else in this country, it has been allowed to fall apart.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy

And yet, our electricity consumption continues to decline since 2005. And we continue to import and export electricity to balance loads.

The National Grid needs investment because, just like pretty much everything else in this country, it has been allowed to fall apart.

More like been very poorly spent (wasted) for decades now. Unfortunately too few people are willing to have a very difficult conversation as to the problems we face on many fronts, this just being one significant one of them.

Rarely does it stray from 'not enough money being spent', when many other factors in how our taxes are spent and why are really what drives most of the problems.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

More like been very poorly spent (wasted) for decades now. Unfortunately too few people are willing to have a very difficult conversation as to the problems we face on many fronts, this just being one significant one of them.

Rarely does it stray from 'not enough money being spent', when many other factors in how our taxes are spent and why are really what drives most of the problems.

The UK has under invested in its energy infrastructure for decades, and the margins between peak demand and capacity have fallen.

Privatised companies dislike excess capacity - costs and reduces profit. Under government ownership profligacy ruled - no effective oversight. Both unacceptable extremes.

Consumers will need to pick up the investment cost - whether through increased charges or increased taxation. There is no free lunch!

There is a clear trade off between early investment in green capacity, and lower future operating costs (mainly fuel) in future decades.

What the government can do is make sure that the energy companies are able to invest - possibly guaranteeing loans, part funding the investment or something more creative.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

"Will there be enough power to charge your EV ?"

is the wrong question. It will be "Can you afford to recharge your EV?"

Why? Because the capital investments talked of - Mainly the National Grid £70B but others as well - are likely to double the cost of electricity...and maybe more.

The people involved are acting like dumbos = spend and do sums later.. Or liars ..know the results and not telling.

You need to look at the full life costs of technology - it makes a HUGE difference:

Gas - low up front investment costs followed by decades of high operating costs (fuel)

Wind/solar - very high up front costs followed by decades of fairly low maintenance costs

General consensus is that solar and wind provide the lowest LCOE (long term cost of energy) - look it up.

Dumbos don't bother to do the sums at all, preferring preconceived conclusions whether right of wrong!!

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - madf

"Will there be enough power to charge your EV ?"

is the wrong question. It will be "Can you afford to recharge your EV?"

Why? Because the capital investments talked of - Mainly the National Grid £70B but others as well - are likely to double the cost of electricity...and maybe more.

The people involved are acting like dumbos = spend and do sums later.. Or liars ..know the results and not telling.

You need to look at the full life costs of technology - it makes a HUGE difference:

Gas - low up front investment costs followed by decades of high operating costs (fuel)

Wind/solar - very high up front costs followed by decades of fairly low maintenance costs

General consensus is that solar and wind provide the lowest LCOE (long term cost of energy) - look it up.

Dumbos don't bother to do the sums at all, preferring preconceived conclusions whether right of wrong!!

Ahh the usual answer : ignoring the well known issue of irregularity of supply and the need for 100% backup for the 20 odd days a year when wind and sun are not working.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy

"Will there be enough power to charge your EV ?"

is the wrong question. It will be "Can you afford to recharge your EV?"

Why? Because the capital investments talked of - Mainly the National Grid £70B but others as well - are likely to double the cost of electricity...and maybe more.

The people involved are acting like dumbos = spend and do sums later.. Or liars ..know the results and not telling.

You need to look at the full life costs of technology - it makes a HUGE difference:

Gas - low up front investment costs followed by decades of high operating costs (fuel)

Wind/solar - very high up front costs followed by decades of fairly low maintenance costs

General consensus is that solar and wind provide the lowest LCOE (long term cost of energy) - look it up.

Dumbos don't bother to do the sums at all, preferring preconceived conclusions whether right of wrong!!

Ahh the usual answer : ignoring the well known issue of irregularity of supply and the need for 100% backup for the 20 odd days a year when wind and sun are not working.

Plus that wind and solar are not cheaper overall, because the have been and continue to be (despite the tech being 'mature' for well over a decade now) heavily subsidised by both taxpayers and consumers through 'green' levies.

I also just saw a report that identified solar farms being a significant problem for wildlife, reducing the number of insects, and significant numbers of deaths of birds - especially migratory species, who smash into the PV panels thinking they are bodies of water to land on.

I still am amazed how the biggest proponents of PV still want to yet further reduce our food production output and reliance on foreign imports (which generate far more CO2, including from transportation and lose rural jobs / vital farming experience for the future) by subsidising solar farms (or wind farms in not particularly windy areas, like mine [where that turbine fire was]) when far more could be done to actively encourage businesses and other organisations who use lots of electricity and have big roofs to house them.

Absolute madness, but then, we are dealing with ideologue activists, politicians and (already) rich and powerful chums / puppet masters of theirs looking for more at the expense of the average person.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

"Ahh the usual answer : ignoring the well known issue of irregularity of supply and the need for 100% backup for the 20 odd days a year when wind and sun are not working.

Of course its a problem if you have a closed mind. Have a look at Clean energy without the wind or the sun | National Grid Group to start with. Car batteries averagely have ~60kwh capacity - just half of this would keep the average home running for 2/3 days.

That the UK has ~12 days gas storage capacity should be at least as great a concern!!

Plus that wind and solar are not cheaper overall, because the have been and continue to be (despite the tech being 'mature' for well over a decade now) heavily subsidised by both taxpayers and consumers through 'green' levies.

I suggest you look at the data not make swift unsubstantiated judgements:

  • levellised cost of production shows green energy at ~50% of the cost of gas over the lifetime of the plant Electricity generation costs 2023
  • green energy is no longer directly subsidised - to kick start the technology there were subsidies for solar panels etc

I also just saw a report that identified solar farms being a significant problem for wildlife, reducing the number of insects, and significant numbers of deaths of birds - especially migratory species, who smash into the PV panels thinking they are bodies of water to land on.

Sweet smalling CO2 of course has huge benefits for human and animal health. makes plants grow more and has nothing to do with climate change. It's a choice.

I still am amazed how the biggest proponents of PV still want to yet further reduce our food production output and reliance on foreign imports (which generate far more CO2, including from transportation and lose rural jobs / vital farming experience for the future) by subsidising solar farms (or wind farms in not particularly windy areas, like mine [where that turbine fire was]) when far more could be done to actively encourage businesses and other organisations who use lots of electricity and have big roofs to house them.

Most farms are unprofitable. Agricultural employment is ~1% of total UK (minor). Over the next 25 years less than 10% of farmland may be lost to green energy English farmland could be cut by 9% to hit green targets - BBC News

Technological change is likely to ensure total food output will be maintained.

Absolute madness, but then, we are dealing with ideologue activists, politicians and (already) rich and powerful chums / puppet masters of theirs looking for more at the expense of the average person.

It helps if you look at the evidence rather than making it up!!

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy
The solution to the problem could come from Electric vehicles. They typically charge overnight when demand is low and once they've taken you to work or brought you home you could (with the right tech) plug it in and use the cars battery pack to power the house or flow direct to the grid during peak demand. Our Leaf allows for this but the dual directional charging points aren’t available in the UK for some weird reason. Use the ever increasing capacity of EV’s as backup storage for the grid. It’s not that complex to introduce, the tech is already available and isn’t particularly costly. The will and knowledge are all that are required. I can plug our Leaf in at home and at work so it could be earning its keep when stationary and helping secure the countries power network.

Not so good if the wally in charge in government thinks practically all electricity (including that he thinks should replace natural gas etc to heat buildings) comes from solar panels and wind turbines, which don't exactly provide much in winter.

Plus we currently still rely on imported electricity via interconnectors, and increasingly those nations doing so are reviewing whether that's good for them, given their own problems at home. Norway being the latest.

Also, yet another wind turbine catches fire not far from me. Hardly the easiest tech to maintain at the best of times.

Note that 'backup' via cars relies heavily on car owners to charge their cars exactly when most beneficial to the grid and to meekly accept using them as defacto storage buffers, including to run their batteries down feeding back into the grid at peak periods. Like with the panic buying during the pandemic, people will likely refuse to connect their EV to the grid to run the battery down, just in case they need to use the car.

I can't see that working out, partly as explained above, especially when nuclear won't be anywhere near taking over the base load (and is actually going down until well after 2030) in winter when solar and wind obviously cannot provide it.

Buffer storage would in reality need to be huge, and there frankly just isn't the resources (including raw materials needed for the huge amount of extra batteries) or tech to pull that sort of thing off, especially in just 5 years.

Bear in mind that one country alone could not do this, and yet practically every major Western developed nation is doing something like these things, all competing for quite scarce raw materials and production facilities, many of which are controlled by nations not exactly friendly to us and often near / actual dictatorships, or at least terribly corrupt in comparison to us (which at the moment is saying something).

I'm just not convinced. Way too unrealistic and could be really, really bad, with no quick or economic fix.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

solar and wind turbines, which don't exactly provide much in winter.

You are right about solar, but wrong about wind - 1st and 4th quarters have higher wind speeds.

Plus we currently still rely on imported electricity via interconnectors, and increasingly those nations doing so are reviewing whether that's good for them, given their own problems at home. Norway being the latest.

That an interconnect facility exists is good for both parties - but permanent reliance on vulnerable undersea cables should not be part of a long term strategy.

Also, yet another wind turbine catches fire not far from me. Hardly the easiest tech to maintain at the best of times.

It is demonstrably hugely cheaper than feeding a gas turbine with fossil fuels. Turbine fires are rare, usually destroy the tower but little else. Explosion and fires from gas leaks far exceed turbine fires with a much higher risk of death or injury.

Note that 'backup' via cars relies heavily on car owners to charge their cars exactly when most beneficial to the grid and to meekly accept using them as defacto storage buffers, including to run their batteries down feeding back into the grid at peak periods. Like with the panic buying during the pandemic, people will likely refuse to connect their EV to the grid to run the battery down, just in case they need to use the car.

Nonsense - I suspect owners will be able to chose when and how much their EV battery is depleted based on individual travel plans. Were I an EV owner I would charge at cheap rates and happily sell back to the grid at a higher rate in a period of high demand.

I can't see that working out, partly as explained above, especially when nuclear won't be anywhere near taking over the base load (and is actually going down until well after 2030) in winter when solar and wind obviously cannot provide it.

I agree nuclear roll out is dire and needs accelerating. Increases in electricity demand will emerge over the next 20+ years as EV sales are mandated, and gas boilers replaced with heat pumps - possibly starting 2035.

Buffer storage would in reality need to be huge, and there frankly just isn't the resources (including raw materials needed for the huge amount of extra batteries) or tech to pull that sort of thing off, especially in just 5 years.

This is not a 5 year problem - it is a 25 year problem. Needs a coherent plan not a panic attack.

Bear in mind that one country alone could not do this, and yet practically every major Western developed nation is doing something like these things, all competing for quite scarce raw materials and production facilities, many of which are controlled by nations not exactly friendly to us and often near / actual dictatorships, or at least terribly corrupt in comparison to us (which at the moment is saying something).

If it appears the transition to green energy/nuclear is not working (or going too slow) - avoid decommissioning existing gas generation until transition to green energy is proven.

I'm just not convinced. Way too unrealistic and could be really, really bad, with no quick or economic fix.

Doesn't need a quick fix - it needs a workable plan with contingencies.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Andrew-T

<< This is not a 5 year problem - it is a 25 year problem. Needs a coherent plan not a panic attack. >>

The trouble there is that before the end of the 25-year period, the goalposts have moved so far that the original plan is no longer appropriate. And as tech advances those goalposts move more quickly !

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy

solar and wind turbines, which don't exactly provide much in winter.

You are right about solar, but wrong about wind - 1st and 4th quarters have higher wind speeds.

It depends on where you are in the UK, plus there's a big difference between maximum speeds and the mean. In mid-late Autumn and sometimes in early Spring, stormy weather and high winds mean wind turbines have to be shut down for safety. Often in winter, outside of stormy weather, we'll have very cold, dry periods where there's little to no wind.

Plus we currently still rely on imported electricity via interconnectors, and increasingly those nations doing so are reviewing whether that's good for them, given their own problems at home. Norway being the latest.

That an interconnect facility exists is good for both parties - but permanent reliance on vulnerable undersea cables should not be part of a long term strategy.

Only if the provider doesn't also go Net Zero and thus can't provide that electricity to others because they need it all to replace gas, etc. Plus others doing the same drives prices through the roof, especially in times of peak demand, like now.

Also, yet another wind turbine catches fire not far from me. Hardly the easiest tech to maintain at the best of times.

It is demonstrably hugely cheaper than feeding a gas turbine with fossil fuels. Turbine fires are rare, usually destroy the tower but little else. Explosion and fires from gas leaks far exceed turbine fires with a much higher risk of death or injury.

When was the last time a gas-fired power station had a gas leak or explosion that killed or severely injured anyone, or sufficient to stop all or a good proportion of their output?

Why hasn't nuclear been prioritised as the main base load for electricity generation by successive governments of all political stripes, including the current Sec of State, when funds were far more plentiful and it was obvious it was needed?

Note that 'backup' via cars relies heavily on car owners to charge their cars exactly when most beneficial to the grid and to meekly accept using them as defacto storage buffers, including to run their batteries down feeding back into the grid at peak periods. Like with the panic buying during the pandemic, people will likely refuse to connect their EV to the grid to run the battery down, just in case they need to use the car.

Nonsense - I suspect owners will be able to chose when and how much their EV battery is depleted based on individual travel plans. Were I an EV owner I would charge at cheap rates and happily sell back to the grid at a higher rate in a period of high demand.

Maybe you personally, but enough to make any significant contribution to electricity storage UK-wide? Everyone makes decisions based on their own personal circumstances for their families, not for what some government bod wants them to. Unless you want to force people to by law?

I can't see that working out, partly as explained above, especially when nuclear won't be anywhere near taking over the base load (and is actually going down until well after 2030) in winter when solar and wind obviously cannot provide it.

I agree nuclear roll out is dire and needs accelerating. Increases in electricity demand will emerge over the next 20+ years as EV sales are mandated, and gas boilers replaced with heat pumps - possibly starting 2035.

Again, I'd love to know how that will work, given how so many homes are just not suitable to take such tech, whether because of the type of property (like mine - a flat) or its construction, namely older properties with little benefit from installing cavity insulation or where cladding is inherently unsafe, won't do much, not possible due to preservation orders / planning rules or too expensive for the owner to afford over their lifetime.

Also, note how many shoddy installers there are in this industry, and the total number of installers still several magnitudes less than currently needed, with little chance of that number improving (or the quality) much before 2035.

Buffer storage would in reality need to be huge, and there frankly just isn't the resources (including raw materials needed for the huge amount of extra batteries) or tech to pull that sort of thing off, especially in just 5 years.

This is not a 5 year problem - it is a 25 year problem. Needs a coherent plan not a panic attack.

So why are the laws all changing to mandate EVs only for new sales by 2030 and net zero by the same year, when none of the plans are achievable or coherent, even if applied over a much longer timeframe?

Forcing people or the country to bankrupt themselves to go net zero in order to satisfy rich and powerful ideologues whispering in politicians' ears so they can grab yet more wealth and power is hardly a good argument.

The 'plans', such as they are, need to be completely re-written and be more realistic. I would say that 25 years is probably a significant underestimate, probably 50+.

Bear in mind that one country alone could not do this, and yet practically every major Western developed nation is doing something like these things, all competing for quite scarce raw materials and production facilities, many of which are controlled by nations not exactly friendly to us and often near / actual dictatorships, or at least terribly corrupt in comparison to us (which at the moment is saying something).

If it appears the transition to green energy/nuclear is not working (or going too slow) - avoid decommissioning existing gas generation until transition to green energy is proven.

Not according to our Sec of State. He wants net zero by 2030, whatever to cost. That obviously won't involve nuclear, because Hinkley Point C will come online (assuming it works as intended) around 2030, but by then, nuclear's share of the load will have fallen because older power stations will have been shut down.

Unfortunately, the politicians, egged on by the green lobby, are ploughing ahead when many techs are far from being proven and many they want to ramp up either won't be achieved (not even near) and won't be able to prove a sufficient (365) base load or with enough storage to cope in peak periods / lowest generation times.

I'm just not convinced. Way too unrealistic and could be really, really bad, with no quick or economic fix.

Doesn't need a quick fix - it needs a workable plan with contingencies.

I seriously doubt that you'll find that in government / officialdom circles of all stripes. Hasn't been for decades now. No-one with a sensible bone in their body and who ha access to non-ideological / corrupt / selfish 'experts' who have the country's best interests at heart as opposed to just their own.

Anyone who actually fits that bill has been sidelined / cancelled, precisely because they've called out the farce. Like on so many issues these days, I'm sad to say.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Andrew-T

<< The 'plans', such as they are, need to be completely re-written and be more realistic. I would say that 25 years is probably a significant underestimate, probably 50+. >>

As I said above, serious planning for 50+ years ahead requires an extremely far-seeing crystal ball. How about those railways that were still being built about 1900, when new road transport was pretty noticeably on the horizon ; and the fleet of new steam engines designed and built from 1950-60, just a few years before the decision to abandon steam ?

Planners simply can't see clearly for any serious number of years ahead. Especially when everything now is affected by global changes as much as national ones.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

<< The 'plans', such as they are, need to be completely re-written and be more realistic. I would say that 25 years is probably a significant underestimate, probably 50+. >>

As I said above, serious planning for 50+ years ahead requires an extremely far-seeing crystal ball. How about those railways that were still being built about 1900, when new road transport was pretty noticeably on the horizon ; and the fleet of new steam engines designed and built from 1950-60, just a few years before the decision to abandon steam ?

Planners simply can't see clearly for any serious number of years ahead. Especially when everything now is affected by global changes as much as national ones.

If you don't plan a disaster is assured. Any plan needs review, refinement and update as it progresses to reflect additional information. In the 15 years from 2010:

  • wind power has grown from 2% to 25%
  • solar power has grown from 0% to 4%
  • other renewables have grown from 3% to 12%
  • coal has fallen from 28% to 1%
  • gas has fallen from 45% to 32%

This has been achieved with fairly shambolic policy implementation - nuclear delayed, wind licences restricted, nimby protests over solar.

With effective management a 25 year time horizon for net zero is entirely feasible. It does rely upon a clear plan developed to meet storage needs to manage wind and solar variability - but if we don't start it is guaranteed never to happen!!.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy

<< The 'plans', such as they are, need to be completely re-written and be more realistic. I would say that 25 years is probably a significant underestimate, probably 50+. >>

As I said above, serious planning for 50+ years ahead requires an extremely far-seeing crystal ball. How about those railways that were still being built about 1900, when new road transport was pretty noticeably on the horizon ; and the fleet of new steam engines designed and built from 1950-60, just a few years before the decision to abandon steam ?

Planners simply can't see clearly for any serious number of years ahead. Especially when everything now is affected by global changes as much as national ones.

If you don't plan a disaster is assured. Any plan needs review, refinement and update as it progresses to reflect additional information. In the 15 years from 2010:

  • wind power has grown from 2% to 25%
  • solar power has grown from 0% to 4%
  • other renewables have grown from 3% to 12%
  • coal has fallen from 28% to 1%
  • gas has fallen from 45% to 32%

This has been achieved with fairly shambolic policy implementation - nuclear delayed, wind licences restricted, nimby protests over solar.

To be fair to the 'nimbyists', many are decent people concerned about the ruination of the local environment and or use of prime farmland that increases our dependency on (expensive, not green) imported food and the decimation of our family-led farming industry in favour of corporations who fleece the public in return for higher much electricity prices and intermittent supply.

With effective management a 25 year time horizon for net zero is entirely feasible. It does rely upon a clear plan developed to meet storage needs to manage wind and solar variability - but if we don't start it is guaranteed never to happen!!.

Dreamland, especially with an extra 1M net people 'legally' arriving (still bad even if its less than 10% of that figure) every year. What 'storage' that is 100% guaranteed and for long enough to cope with many days of poor winter weather that isn't conducive to wind and solar generation?

As I said before, the UK isn't the only nation going this way, and thus we'd be in direct competition for all the extra tech and resources (batteries?) needed for any 'storage', all vying for a very limited amount of stuff.

There's so much else that needs to be done to achieve this sort of thing, and half of the tech doesn't exist or is not sufficient to pull it of yet, and likely won't be for several decades at least.

Note that the head office of Net Zero and a good few others had (ironically) a significant power cut today. A sign 'o' the times.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Engineer Andy

<< The 'plans', such as they are, need to be completely re-written and be more realistic. I would say that 25 years is probably a significant underestimate, probably 50+. >>

As I said above, serious planning for 50+ years ahead requires an extremely far-seeing crystal ball. How about those railways that were still being built about 1900, when new road transport was pretty noticeably on the horizon ; and the fleet of new steam engines designed and built from 1950-60, just a few years before the decision to abandon steam ?

Planners simply can't see clearly for any serious number of years ahead. Especially when everything now is affected by global changes as much as national ones.

To be fair on the 'steam engines' issue, it was obvious to a blind man that steam was on the way out, given most of Europe and much of the Western world had already started to go over to diesel-electric and full electric before WW2 and especially in the decade afterwards.

I suspect that decision was made because the government was more interested in the capital cost (bearing in mind WW2 essentially bankrupted us, only paying off the US loans about 20 years ago) and that they had a large supply of coal still available. The problem was that steam engines were far more dependent upon manpower, far less energy efficient and needed much more maintenance.

Rather typical big organisations, like governments and large companies. I used to see this with many former government organisations (privatised ones) my former firms worked for, because they retained the 'way of thinking' of their former masters - pay less for capital spending, don't care about the much higher running / maintenance costs because it's a different dept 'responsible' for it.

Essentially a lot of bad planning is down to 'silo' thinking and turf wars between vested interests, many of which compete for the same funding or whose senior management despise each other and often actively do things to spite / sabotage the other. Seen it happen many times.

Nowadays, you add in rich and powerful 'green lobby experts' (they aren't experts, just savvy at convincing politicians to waste loads of money in their direction in return for favours and 'donations') to the mix, who just make things worse, because they certainly do not have our best interests at heart, as I've mentioned before.

That lot have just replaced similar lobbyists from other industries - railways, road haulage, power generation, etc, etc. Just go back to some of those episodes of Yes, Minister / Prime Minister to see why things mostly go pear-shaped: it's all for the benefit of lobbyists and their chums.

Tesla Model S - Will there be enough power to charge your EV? - Terry W

watt-logic.com/2025/02/02/blackout-risks-in-the-gb.../

The opinion of a single individual with some experience in the energy sector and financial services is an opinion, not evidence. You can chose to believe it or challenge it.

About Watt-Logic - Watt-Logic

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
The UK Net Zero target is 2045-2050, not 2030. It’s a 45% reduction in CO2 emissions by 2030.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/environment-age...o

Or did you mean Net Zero electricity production by 2030?

Edited by mcb100 on 04/02/2025 at 17:39

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - madf

i will say this and no more on the subject.

If green energy is so much cheaper, why have we not seen a reduction i the price of electricity?

After all it now accounts for over 30% of our electricity production.

"In 2020, UK electricity prices started to increase significantly above the EU median.

In 2022, UK electricity prices were 55% higher than the EU-UK median in the first half and 93% higher in the second half.

In 2023, UK electricity prices were 78% higher than the EU-UK median"

Says it all.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
Because electricity prices are tied to the most expensive resource required to produce electricity.
And that’s gas. If gas prices are high, and, for various reasons they are, electricity prices mirror them.

Edited by mcb100 on 05/02/2025 at 13:32

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy
Because electricity prices are tied to the most expensive resource required to produce electricity. And that’s gas. If gas prices are high, and, for various reasons they are, electricity prices mirror them.

And why's that, given many other countries use gas to do the same and don't have high electricity prices? It never used to be here, so why don't they go back to the old way of purchasing it?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - madf

If Green energy is that much cheaper and our prices are much higher, super profits are being made.

The bidding system for supplying electricity is responsible:

"Two gas power station owners will be paid more than £12m to supply just three hours of electricity on Wednesday evening after freezing weather led to some of the highest market prices since the energy crisis began.

Britain faced surging power prices after the grid operator warned it would need power plants to fire up in the early evening to have enough electricity to power homes and businesses within its normal safety limits."

www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/08/two-power...y

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Gibbo_Wirral

6th Feb:

Tesla sales crash in Europe, UK. We can only wonder why

www.theregister.com/2025/02/06/europe_uk_tesla_sal.../

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

"Two gas power station owners will be paid more than £12m to supply just three hours of electricity on Wednesday evening after freezing weather led to some of the highest market prices since the energy crisis began.

Britain faced surging power prices after the grid operator warned it would need power plants to fire up in the early evening to have enough electricity to power homes and businesses within its normal safety limits."

It may even be that paying £12m to maintain consumer supply for 3 hours was actually a good deal and cost less than having two plants standing idle for a year only to surge into action when the weather gets a bit frosty.

What it does indicate is a failure in regulation to ensure that supply capacity can meet peak demand + a contingency for plant outages etc. Having a market driven system simply leads profit driven companies to minimise spare capacity costs.

The same market driven system which drives up costs in times of high demand, also allows companies to offer low unit off-peak prices when demand is low for much of the year and only the most efficient plant is switched on.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Brit_in_Germany

Which is cheaper, paying through the nose for short periods or installing massive gas reservoirs as they have on the continent?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy

If Green energy is that much cheaper and our prices are much higher, super profits are being made.

The bidding system for supplying electricity is responsible:

"Two gas power station owners will be paid more than £12m to supply just three hours of electricity on Wednesday evening after freezing weather led to some of the highest market prices since the energy crisis began.

Britain faced surging power prices after the grid operator warned it would need power plants to fire up in the early evening to have enough electricity to power homes and businesses within its normal safety limits."

www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/08/two-power...y

Green energy 'regulation':

Heads they win, tails we lose.

And by 'they', I mean millionaire / billionaire chums of mainstream politicians, who just so happen to be the very ones pushing for more (lucrative / longer-lasting) subsidies for 'green' tech so they win big whatever the amount of electricity they produce (if any).

Amazing how also the same lot, IMHO, so generously back these political parties / politicians financially and use their wealth and power / access to officials to silence any dissenting / questioning voices.

This all stinks to high heaven.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

<< Amazing how also the same lot, IMHO, so generously back these political parties / politicians financially and use their wealth and power / access to officials to silence any dissenting / questioning voices. >>

Let us not forget, when bemoaning the 'wrong' people receiving backhanders, the almost immediate payout by our new Chancellor to the railway drivers' union which had provided down-payments before the election. With the silly consequence that those drivers are now so well (over-)remunerated that they don't bother to do the overtime which the system has evolved to depend upon ?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

And why's that, given many other countries use gas to do the same and don't have high electricity prices? It never used to be here, so why don't they go back to the old way of purchasing it?

Why don't you actually look for reliable evidence rather than relying on completely flawed preconceptions.

UK domestic electricity prices sit around the middle of European prices - the UK price cap in the first half of 2024 was 24.5p Kwh, the EU average was ~28p - from the EU Eurostat website - Electricity price statistics - Statistics Explained

Gas is purchased in the market at whatever the price happens to be!!

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy

And why's that, given many other countries use gas to do the same and don't have high electricity prices? It never used to be here, so why don't they go back to the old way of purchasing it?

Why don't you actually look for reliable evidence rather than relying on completely flawed preconceptions.

UK domestic electricity prices sit around the middle of European prices - the UK price cap in the first half of 2024 was 24.5p Kwh, the EU average was ~28p - from the EU Eurostat website - Electricity price statistics - Statistics Explained

Gas is purchased in the market at whatever the price happens to be!!

Compare like with like, not the EU average.

And why would I rely on 'stats' from an organisation that hasn't had it's accounts signed off by the official auditor because they are so bad/correct for the last two decades or more?

Sadly these prices will seem ridiculously cheap compared to what they'll be if the current government's net zero ambitions (the last one's were bad enough) for the mix of electricity generation and penalising gas users despite most having no economic option to do otherwise (and raising gas prices to partially subsidise electricity isn't).

On a similar front, I watched a CH5 programme about 'heat pumps' - IMHO, what a crock, given these people were spending so much on the instals and gaining (in comparison) so little back that one would take 50 years to pay back - and that's WITH the government subsidy. They glazed over so many issues that essentially means about half (maybe more) housing stock will NEVER be suitable for the tech, just like EVs aren't without so significant sea-change in tech that is yet to materialise.

I just wish people would look at the real world rather than some virtue-signalling one where money doesn't matter and the world is going to end in (now 5-10 according to them) a few years unless we bankrupt everyone apart from the rich and powerful.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

<< And why would I rely on 'stats' from an organisation that hasn't had it's accounts signed off by the official auditor because they are so bad/correct for the last two decades or more? >>

I suppose because (like many others) you only want to believe or quote stats that support the case you want to present ?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

Why don't you actually look for reliable evidence rather than relying on completely flawed preconceptions.

UK domestic electricity prices sit around the middle of European prices - the UK price cap in the first half of 2024 was 24.5p Kwh, the EU average was ~28p - from the EU Eurostat website - Electricity price statistics - Statistics Explained

Gas is purchased in the market at whatever the price happens to be!!

Compare like with like, not the EU average.

And why would I rely on 'stats' from an organisation that hasn't had it's accounts signed off by the official auditor because they are so bad/correct for the last two decades or more?

Two points:

  • owning up - there was an error in my figures - the EU comparators are in Euros. In £ the EU average should be 24.4p at Euro 1.15 : £. Doesn't change the conclusion
  • Quote from EU auditors on the adequacy of EU statistics in 2022:
  • Our overall conclusion is that the Commission provides statistics that are generally of sufficient quality for policy-makers, businesses and citizens. However, some weaknesses are still to be addressed.

The conclusions I have drawn seem reasonably supportable - perhaps you have a reference to an equally authoritative source which comes to a different conclusion.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Manatee

On a similar front, I watched a CH5 programme about 'heat pumps' - IMHO, what a crock,

The problems with heat pumps, first, is that electricity is about 4 times the price of gas. Even so, the running cost of a properly sized HP should be about the same as using a gas boiler.

Second, the potential problems with retro fitting, because usually an existing wet system will need replacing or upgrading. Throwing out a gas boiler and replacing with a HP is probably not attractive while gas is available and the price ratio per kWh between gas and electricity remains as it is.

A heat pump does cost more than a gas boiler. Our heating and hot water systems probably cost about £20,000 total but the heat pump itself was about £4,000. All the heating is underfloor, which works well with heat pumps. The flow temperature for heating only needs to be around 34-40C.

Our total energy consumption last year for a 2021 build 2,300 sq ft house was under 8,500kWh of electricity (at a cost of £2,400) of which about 4,500 kWh was heating and hot water. Both are on 24/7 unless I switch the heating off in Jun-Sep, which actually made very little difference when I tried it. Yes, insulation is to current standards. I have no solar power, a decision I made when electricity was 'only' 17p per kWh.

Insulation should be the priority whether the fuel is gas, electricity, or methane from cows.

There would of course, as with EV's, be a capacity and cost problem if everybody got a heat pump in the next 5 years.. We need cheap electricity, and lots of it.

Meanwhile, the incentives around a transition really need sorting out. The old feed in rates for solar were just a way of transferring money from poorer people to better off ones, i.e. those who could afford £10,000 for the panels, which were effectively paid for by all electricity users.


The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Andrew-T

<< The old feed in rates for solar were just a way of transferring money from poorer people to better off ones, i.e. those who could afford £10,000 for the panels, which were effectively paid for by all electricity users. >>

You could say that about anything costing £10 grand. Advantageous FiT rates were mainly to get the solar-panel industry up and running. Once that was done the rates fell, but if you had got in early they were protected and index-linked. You could reasonably argue against that, but if solar is such a good idea I don't see why it should be slated as anti-socialist.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
In other news, January’s new car sales figures are in.

Year on year, the whole market is down by 2.5%.
Diesel is down 7.7%, petrol by 15.3%.
Hybrid is up by 2.9%, PHEV by 5.5%, EV by 41.6%.
That’s 21.3% market share in January 25 versus 14.7% this time last year.
The biggest climber amongst manufacturers are BYD - up 551% from January’24. Yes, it’s from a low starting point - 1614 cars from 240 last year.
Alpine were the biggest drop - just 10 cars sold in January, but I’d expect that to rapidly change when the joint Car of the Year (Alpine A290/Renault 5) hits their showrooms.
Tesla, interestingly, sold fewer cars and lost market share.

Edited by mcb100 on 07/02/2025 at 15:11

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Hugh Watt
In other news, January’s new car sales figures are in.

One correction, if I may - registrations, not sales. I think you're well aware of the difference. The trade is still trying to shift last year's "sales".

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - alan1302
In other news, January’s new car sales figures are in. Year on year, the whole market is down by 2.5%. Diesel is down 7.7%, petrol by 15.3%. Hybrid is up by 2.9%, PHEV by 5.5%, EV by 41.6%. That’s 21.3% market share in January 25 versus 14.7% this time last year. The biggest climber amongst manufacturers are BYD - up 551% from January’24. Yes, it’s from a low starting point - 1614 cars from 240 last year. Alpine were the biggest drop - just 10 cars sold in January, but I’d expect that to rapidly change when the joint Car of the Year (Alpine A290/Renault 5) hits their showrooms. Tesla, interestingly, sold fewer cars and lost market share.

Think that's due to an update with the Y series on the way so people waiting...as well as them having a bit of brand image problem at the moment.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - SLO76
Might be a bit off topic but I had a wee drive in our new ADL E100 electric bus the other day. Very impressed, it’s a very well designed small bus that’s very relaxing to drive. We’re currently trying it out on several routes to see where its 354kwh battery pack will fit. At £360,000 a pop we’ll need to make it work for its living. But so far it’s a far superior bus compared to the Sigma 8 electric buses we already run.
Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Steveieb

Reports that BMW are hesitating about more investment in EV production of the Mini at Oxford due to falling demand for EVs.

Does this mean production of the Mini EV will continue in China ?

https://www.thetimes.com/business-money/companies/article/bmw-halts-mini-investment-oxford-plant-electric-vehicle-vzl5spnw3

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - mcb100
The article is firewalled, but EV market share is growing every month.
Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Steveieb

Here is the original article from the auto express.

tinyurl.com/5d8z6n8f

Shortened link as messing with the page width. Mod

Edited by Xileno on 22/02/2025 at 14:53

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Steveieb

Seems like even the £600 million support promised by Rishi Sunak hasn’t been enough to tempt BMW away from production in China ?

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Orb>>.

BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford

Will there be much manufacturing in the UK motor industry any more in a few years.??

JLR shrinking their sales by going up market ?

BMW might close Oxford.

Nissan cutting back at Sunderland,

Vauxhall closing Luton and possibly Ellesmere Port if it isn't made worth their while..

Aston Marin as fragile as ever.

Only current good news is that Toyota have not said anything about Shotton or Derby.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - gordonbennet

You can't have a viable competitive manufacturing base with energy costs around 3 times what the competition pays, net zero is killing the UK, German manufacturing too.

It would be interesting to know how Toyota manage with UK's overpriced energy, do they produce their own power?

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Engineer Andy

BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford

Will there be much manufacturing in the UK motor industry any more in a few years.??

JLR shrinking their sales by going up market ?

BMW might close Oxford.

Nissan cutting back at Sunderland,

Vauxhall closing Luton and possibly Ellesmere Port if it isn't made worth their while..

Aston Marin as fragile as ever.

Only current good news is that Toyota have not said anything about Shotton or Derby.

Indeed. In addition, I can't see many makes like Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, maybe even Honda, staying in the UK and perhaps the EU market as a whole, just bearing huge fines per car sold for not meeting EV sales targets, because they seemingly fundamentally disagree with the rapid move to EVs and don't sell many EVs in Europe or at all.

All that will lead to is a further retrenchment of the market, dealerships and parts providers going under, and (IMHO) cheapo Chinese tat replacing it, made only in China using coal-fired electricity, further assisting the CCP and not doing the environment (or society) any good at all.

I think we're already rapidly approaching saturation point as regards new EV sales.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Terry W

In addition, I can't see many makes like Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, maybe even Honda, staying in the UK and perhaps the EU market as a whole, just bearing huge fines per car sold for not meeting EV sales targets, because they seemingly fundamentally disagree with the rapid move to EVs and don't sell many EVs in Europe or at all.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan came to the UK in the late 1980s using the UK with its skilled workforce (manufacturing, design, component suppliers etc) as a base for access to European markets.

We have now left the EU - the principal rationale for their existence has disappeared. Worse, cars exported from UK to EU now have to climb a 10% tariff barrier.

No surprise they are reviewing their options!

All that will lead to is a further retrenchment of the market, dealerships and parts providers going under, and (IMHO) cheapo Chinese tat replacing it, made only in China using coal-fired electricity, further assisting the CCP and not doing the environment (or society) any good at all.

The Chinese have some major cost advantages over the UK and Europe - lower labour costs, lower power costs, probably lower H&S standards, and a government very supportive of manufacturing industries.

Their products are not "cheapo Chinese tat" - by all accounts they now produce competitive quality at an attractive price - certainly sufficient to persuade UK consumers and businesses to part with their hard-earned.

Being critical of using coal fired power stations whilst supporting of oil burning cars is bizarre!

I think we're already rapidly approaching saturation point as regards new EV sales.

You are entitled to an opinion - needless to say I don't agree. Government makes the rules. Existing cars will age to the point they need replacement. If the only option is an EV, that is what will get sold.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Engineer Andy
The article is firewalled, but EV market share is growing every month.

Having a higher percentage share of an increasingly diminishing total market is not something to shout about, especially when more and more manufacturers are in bad financial straits as a result of the governmental policies on new EV sales.

Car manufacturers are deliberately cutting back production and sales of ICE cars in order to try and meet the unrealistic mandated sales targets to avoid swingeing fines. The rate of increase is dropping, so much so that they will likely level off over the next couple of years.

That worked to some degree for the last two years, but they STILL didn't meet the targets, and what they've been doing is essentially pushing sale of new ICE cars back and back, all the while increasing the RRP of the same whilst slashing the price of EVs.

Many manufacturers are now very publicly concerned about losing shed loads of money on this - even to the extent where the previously very profitable German marques are barely making any money AT ALL in the European market, only doing so because other foreign markets DO NOT have the same EV sales mandates.

To me, this type of can-kicking down the road can only go on for so long before something fatally gives. And given how much the EV sales mandate is going up this year, I suspect things in that regard will kick off in 2025, especially when factoring in other serious economic issues into the mix.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - mcb100
No manufacturers paid any fines for missing the 2024 22% EV target last year.

Only one, Suzuki, had to buy ‘compliance credits’ from other OEM’s.
Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Engineer Andy
No manufacturers paid any fines for missing the 2024 22% EV target last year. Only one, Suzuki, had to buy ‘compliance credits’ from other OEM’s.

Where di that come from? I've read several newspaper reports over the last year that said many of them would easily miss such targets - especially those I mentioned that have only one or two EVs in their lineup and sell very few of them to boot.

I suspect that manufacturers have been 'buying credits' from EV-only manufacturers big time or paying (or will be as of the end of the tax year) the huge fines.

And your comment still doesn't debunk my statement about firms deliberately delaying sales of ICE cars into 2025 as well as drastically cutting production (despite a big demand for them) to even get close to that mandated percentage. That behaviour can't go on ad-infinitum when using profits (and more) to cross-subsidise EV sales that are now levelling off.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - mcb100
‘ Where di that come from? I've read several newspaper reports over the last year that said many of them would easily miss such targets - especially those I mentioned that have only one or two EVs in their lineup and sell very few of them to boot.’

That’s the advantage of using results over predictions.

It wasn’t quite as straightforward as 22% EV registrations.
OEM’s could carry forward any shortfall if they were confident they would exceed this year’s target of 28%. In addition, there’s an equivalence formula in place for PHEV’s - xPHEV’s =1 EV. The x figure grows, year on year.

With no EV’s in their range, only Suzuki had to purchase credits from OEM’s who’d exceeded their target.

www.transportenvironment.org/te-united-kingdom/art...e
Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Ethan Edwards

Here's a funny thing..loopholes. Apparently if you make less than 2500 cars a year you can carry on making and selling ice cars. And Bam just like that a lot of specialist Italian car manufacturers can opt out. Politics...of the brown envelope kind no doubt.

Either it's a genuine problem and no loopholes should exist.or it's a con. C40 cities stuff. Maybe the conspiracy loons are onto something.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - RT

Small numbers of IC cars being built indefinitely won't harm the planet - especially as domestic gas cookers and gas heating creates more CO2 than cars.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Adampr

Small numbers of IC cars being built indefinitely won't harm the planet - especially as domestic gas cookers and gas heating creates more CO2 than cars.

Current building regulations effectively preclude gas central heating in new builds. Housebuilders won't make a connection for cookers alone, so they are also out.

Not an outright ban, but equivalent to the Government saying ICE cars are fine as long as they emit zero carbon.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - RT

Small numbers of IC cars being built indefinitely won't harm the planet - especially as domestic gas cookers and gas heating creates more CO2 than cars.

Current building regulations effectively preclude gas central heating in new builds. Housebuilders won't make a connection for cookers alone, so they are also out.

Not an outright ban, but equivalent to the Government saying ICE cars are fine as long as they emit zero carbon.

Unlike banning the sales of new IC cars, banning new domestic gas installations will take centuries before everyone is using electric.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Brit_in_Germany

>Unlike banning the sales of new IC cars, banning new domestic gas installations will take centuries before everyone is using electric.

Not if government legislate to ban all central heating systems over a given age, which the German government did, setting 30 years as the maximum age.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - RT

Deleted

Edited by RT on 24/02/2025 at 11:02

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - gordonbennet

First of all, i have nothing at against battery only cars, if you can take advantage of the taxpayer funded bribes to join the bandwagon and enjoy (for now) cheap overnight charging you'd be a foolish not to.

They're not for me, don't want one, won't be having one.

I think at the next election the cancellation of net zero will be one of the leading promises on the manifestos of at least one party in the running to form the next govt, with all the implications that brings.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Terry W

As far as I am aware sales of all ICE cars are to be banned from 2030, including those from low volume (often high price) manufacturers.

I can fully understand why the government does not want the administrative hassle of the trivial (so far as emissions are concerned) - small manufacturers will either develop EVs or go out of business.

A typical gas boiler will last 10-20 years before replacement. That means if they are banned from sale from 2035 (??) most will be decommissioned by 2055.

The few that remain will have to support a distribution network whose costs will be difficult to reduce to match falling demand - I suspect fixed charges will become unaffordable hastening the end of GCH and cookers anyway.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Ethan Edwards

cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/small-british-manu...7

No even in the UK if you're rich enough and can buy something unusual and presumably stupidly expensive. Then it's carry on polluting. Rules are for thee and not me. That's simply unacceptable imo.

Mercedes Electric - fire - HGV ~ P Valentine

CCTV images show electric Mercedes explode into flames on family's driveway | ITV News Anglia

I am not nor will I ever consider electric vehicles safe, but this post is not about that. The title tells it all, but the short version is, less than 30k onthe clock, one of the top car manufacturers and not a 2nd hand car.

The family got lucky 5/6 months ago, the next one might not be so, had this car been in the garage under the house, well it does not bare thinking about.

Moved from main forum. This thread is for EV links to other sites. Thanks - Mod

Edited by Xileno on 24/02/2025 at 21:41

Mercedes Electric - Killing machine - Adampr

CCTV images show electric Mercedes explode into flames on family's driveway | ITV News Anglia

I am not nor will I ever consider electric vehicles safe, but this post is not about that. The title tells it all, but the short version is, less than 30k onthe clock, one of the top car manufacturers and not a 2nd hand car.

The family got lucky 5/6 months ago, the next one might not be so, had this car been in the garage under the house, well it does not bare thinking about.

That video even says 3 EV fires out of 277 car fires in Northants. EVs make up about 4% of cars on the road so, based on that, are less likely to catch fire. The damage seems to amount to a burned garage door and some smoke damage. Hardly the apocalyptic destruction you'd expect from all this hand wringing.

Mercedes Electric - fire - Xileno

The article does not detail what caused the fire. All we can deduct is that when an EV fire does occur, it needs a different response, as the fire brigade stated.

Better not have a diesel Range Rover then - see Luton car park thread in the main forum.

Mercedes Electric - fire - alan1302

I am not nor will I ever consider electric vehicles safe, but this post is not about that. The title tells it all, but the short version is, less than 30k onthe clock, one of the top car manufacturers and not a 2nd hand car.

You would not post this if it was no about what you perceive as a lack of safety - not that you have any understanding of it. Why don't you post some petrol cars that have caught fire as well? They are not 'safe' either.

I think what you mean is you don't like EVs and so look at any way you can discredit them even if you makes you look a bit daft.

Mini - BMW stall investment in EVs at Oxford - Engineer Andy
‘ Where di that come from? I've read several newspaper reports over the last year that said many of them would easily miss such targets - especially those I mentioned that have only one or two EVs in their lineup and sell very few of them to boot.’ That’s the advantage of using results over predictions. It wasn’t quite as straightforward as 22% EV registrations. OEM’s could carry forward any shortfall if they were confident they would exceed this year’s target of 28%. In addition, there’s an equivalence formula in place for PHEV’s - xPHEV’s =1 EV. The x figure grows, year on year. With no EV’s in their range, only Suzuki had to purchase credits from OEM’s who’d exceeded their target. www.transportenvironment.org/te-united-kingdom/art...e

There looks to be a lot of shenanigans going on there. Borrowing from future years, from 'ICEV' (which is what, exactly?), buying from others (like Tesla), etc.

That, plus cross-subsidising from ICE (including Mild Hybrids) and from profits generally can only go on so long, especially when the rise in demand is for EVs has stalled, the economies of most major Western nations implementing this are at best stagnating and likely going into really bad recessions already (with worse to come), which means fleet buyers (including rental cars) will drop off significantly, which makes up the bulk of EV sales.

Oh, and the percentage mandate is going up from 22% in 2024 (which was missed without all the above) to 28%, similar in other Western nations, including the EU. And with trade and actual wars going on/in the offing...

To me, this is all like borrowing money at a higher rate payable next year to pay this year's credit card bill, but where your salary won';t cover it already. The only people who win are green investors who by some coincidence also finance many government advisors, political parties and MSM outlets. Funny, that. Not.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
This was late October, last year and I’ve not been able to find the results of any investigation anywhere.
Looking at still images taken the following morning, the fire seems to have been instigated around the back end, before the flammable interior takes hold, around the boot area.
The fact that the local fire service extinguished it and then left it on the drive suggests it’s not a thermal runaway event.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
A snippet I discovered recently, incidentally, involves Renault and battery fires.
Starting with Megane, subsequently with Scenic and now with 5, they have a ‘firefighter port’ on the top of the battery, accessed from under the rear seat. As it’s accessed, a membrane is punctured and the battery can be filled with extinguishant. A battery fire can be knocked down in minutes, rather than hours.
We’ve known about it since 2022, but Renault have surrendered the patent, allowing other manufacturers to use the technology without charge.
In much the same way Volvo did with three point seatbelts back in 1959.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy
A snippet I discovered recently, incidentally, involves Renault and battery fires. Starting with Megane, subsequently with Scenic and now with 5, they have a ‘firefighter port’ on the top of the battery, accessed from under the rear seat. As it’s accessed, a membrane is punctured and the battery can be filled with extinguishant. A battery fire can be knocked down in minutes, rather than hours. We’ve known about it since 2022, but Renault have surrendered the patent, allowing other manufacturers to use the technology without charge. In much the same way Volvo did with three point seatbelts back in 1959.

'Battery fires', meaning lithium ones, cannot be 'knocked down' in minutes, precisely because of the materials the batteries are mode from - they generate their own source of Oxygen and thus cannot be extinguished, even when immersed in water or starved or Oxygen in air, as you would with petrol fires. Even reducing the temperature by using water etc only slows down the reaction and does not stop it.

All you can do is help prevent knock-on effects to neighbouring vehicles, buildings, people and (whilst doing that) let it burn itself out by the fire consuming all the fuel - the battery material. Depending upon the amount used, that can take well over 24hrs.

All the while, deadly smoke (significantly more toxic [more like deadly, including to firefighters] than given off by petrol or diesel fires) and the chance of secondary fires and damage to surroundings, people, animals, buildings, roads, etc has to be contended with, which is again far more significant than with ICE fires, which are bad enough.

Think along the lines of 'thermite' with much worse fumes. Not helped where the vehicle is also made with certain structural elements like aluminium or magnesium, which has been / is used in some luxury brands and high end cars.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - paul 1963
A snippet I discovered recently, incidentally, involves Renault and battery fires. Starting with Megane, subsequently with Scenic and now with 5, they have a ‘firefighter port’ on the top of the battery, accessed from under the rear seat. As it’s accessed, a membrane is punctured and the battery can be filled with extinguishant. A battery fire can be knocked down in minutes, rather than hours. We’ve known about it since 2022, but Renault have surrendered the patent, allowing other manufacturers to use the technology without charge. In much the same way Volvo did with three point seatbelts back in 1959.

'Battery fires', meaning lithium ones, cannot be 'knocked down' in minutes

Oh yes they can Andy, suggest you take a look at "Lith-Ex" fire extinguishers, as you'll discover they contain "AVD" or aqueous vermiculite dispersion, I'll let you goggle how they work....

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy
A snippet I discovered recently, incidentally, involves Renault and battery fires. Starting with Megane, subsequently with Scenic and now with 5, they have a ‘firefighter port’ on the top of the battery, accessed from under the rear seat. As it’s accessed, a membrane is punctured and the battery can be filled with extinguishant. A battery fire can be knocked down in minutes, rather than hours. We’ve known about it since 2022, but Renault have surrendered the patent, allowing other manufacturers to use the technology without charge. In much the same way Volvo did with three point seatbelts back in 1959.

'Battery fires', meaning lithium ones, cannot be 'knocked down' in minutes

Oh yes they can Andy, suggest you take a look at "Lith-Ex" fire extinguishers, as you'll discover they contain "AVD" or aqueous vermiculite dispersion, I'll let you goggle how they work....

If that's the case, why aren't:

1. All EVs equipped with them as a default safety feature;

2. All fire brigades also equipped with this tech to fight lithium battery fires.

What I noticed about all the lovely PR videos about 'how good' these fire extinguishers are at 'putting out lithium battery fires is that they only put out small fires AND, most importantly, where the things on fire are directly and completely accessible, using small handheld 'bottle' extinguishers, not large scale 'hose-delivered' ones.

This is patently NOT the case for vehicle battery fires, where most of the battery cells are encased behind a (mechanically) protective shell and under the car. I've seen people try to fight ICE car fires using hand-held extinguishers, and that only ever works for very small fires where they mostly don't reach the fuel lines/tank.

I suspect that nearly 100% of vehicle battery fires will get dangerous enough and quickly enough that at best, only professional fire-fighting staff will only be able to stand any chance in dealing with it - but then only if they have an extra tank for this 'miracle' substance.

As I said before, the level and nature of the noxious fumes given off by lithium battery fires is magnitudes about that of ICE vehicle fuel fires, which is bad enough, and where fire brigades advise occupants to not try and fight a car fire if it gets relatively serious. I suspect that 'cutoff' is much lower for EVs.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Brit_in_Germany

Presumably you never leave your apartment without a set of breathing equipment in case you come across a burning EV on your travels.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - paul 1963

Presumably you never leave your apartment without a set of breathing equipment in case you come across a burning EV on your travels.

Nice one sir :)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Engineer Andy

Presumably you never leave your apartment without a set of breathing equipment in case you come across a burning EV on your travels.

I would not stand downwind from one and preferably not anywhere near it generally. There's a whole world of difference between being wary of a technology because of serious, legit safety concerns and making crude jokes about such concerns.

You may also think differently if you lived in a flat, especially with an underground car park, or used such a facility for work / shopping / leisure activities and had to 'deal' with an EV fire where the fumes could kill you and yours or ruin your life (they are proven far more deadly than ICE fires).

At present there are NO measures in place to protect such environments and the people in them, despite lithium ion batteries being common in cars for a good few years.

Given what happened at Luton Airport (as well as across the world with similar fires), you would have thought that the authorities would have stipulated major changes to fire safety regs by now, given lithium battery fires are a well known thing from years ago,m given the tech has been in phones and portable computer equipment for 20+ years now.

Sadly typical of Western society these days - make major changes that have huge, often very negative effects but where no or little research into them prior to it being launched is done, nor mitigation. Laziness, ego, money, incompetence.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
If anyone’s interested in the remote possibility of a traction battery fire, as opposed to a car fire that happens to be an EV, a couple of links below.
EV FireSafe are the authority on, well, EV fires. They’ve got the data and are developing the methodology in dealing with them.

www.evfiresafe.com/electric-vehicle-fires

The second is a bit more on the Renault Fireman Access port fitted to their EV’s and PHEV’s.

media.renaultgroup.com/fireman-access-an-exclusive.../
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - paul 1963

Very interesting MCB, thanks.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - madf

Never mind; the Government with its Net Zero programme is determined to makes EVs more expensive to run than ICEs..

And heat pumps more expensive than gas boilers.

Edited by madf on 26/02/2025 at 15:46

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
No idea on heat pumps, apart from the ones fitted to EV, but you’re going to have to explain the running costs statement.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt
If anyone’s interested in the remote possibility of a traction battery fire, as opposed to a car fire that happens to be an EV, a couple of links below. EV FireSafe are the authority on, well, EV fires. They’ve got the data and are developing the methodology in dealing with them. www.evfiresafe.com/electric-vehicle-fires The second is a bit more on the Renault Fireman Access port fitted to their EV’s and PHEV’s. media.renaultgroup.com/fireman-access-an-exclusive.../

Doesn`t really tell us anymore than we already know about EV fires, as for putting the fire out even a firemans hole in battery will not stop thermal runaway or even the fire restarting, only a change in battery makeup may prevent it happening, and not even heard whether solid state batteries as yet can prevent thermal runaway

as someone in Australia said its all bluff so far

interesting for those that know nothing about how dangerous it is though and let them know to get as far away as possible from the black smoke

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - gordonbennet

Must be a couple of years ago when John Cadogan put a video out about battery fires, yes i know he's not popular here among battery car fans and yes i know a battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle, at current volumes of each sort.

I for one was very glad of the warnings there re the severe dangers of the noxious fumes released during battery fires let alone the burn temperatures involved.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

Just a quick question for the negative:

- if automatic Lithium extinguishers, or batteries without the fire risk (being developed), could be fitted to EVs in much the same way as helium suppression is used in IT and data centres, would you then favour EVs.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt

Just a quick question for the negative:

- if automatic Lithium extinguishers, or batteries without the fire risk (being developed), could be fitted to EVs in much the same way as helium suppression is used in IT and data centres, would you then favour EVs.

In a word NO, I honestly do not see the point of EVs or Hybrids come to that, petrols do as well to the gallon as a hybrid, and they keep saying- being developed- then go bust, bearing in mind they suite some people but not others.

in my case I have more against them than most because I know how they work and the dangers of using them, also having 150+kw sitting in a cable in all weathers doesnt fill me with confidence that nothing may go wrong

they have too much against them and will do for years to come and do not agree in net zero its impossible to achieve and will not happen plenty of life left in Petrol and Diesel with them becoming cleaner we won`t need EVs

they are just an expensive experiment going wrong....

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - gordonbennet

Just a quick question for the negative:

- if automatic Lithium extinguishers, or batteries without the fire risk (being developed), could be fitted to EVs in much the same way as helium suppression is used in IT and data centres, would you then favour EVs.

Personally i'm not negative for battery cars, i'm not having one myself because i don't want one, but lets be honest here if taxpayers money wasn't being used as bribes/perks call it what you will via tax breaks for company/business users and/or cheap overnight charging avoiding all fuel taxes then the numbers being actually bought would be even more laughable than they already are.

I applaud anyone who can save £hundreds in tax every month on their business/company vehicles by choosing battery power, and good luck to those taking advantage of non fuel taxed cheap rate overnight charging, you'd be foolish not to take advantage, but as i've said before please lets stop with the virtue signalling here, most people are not going battery power for the alleged green aspect, for most its a financial choice as every one of our company cars users who's gone electric would confirm how much tax they save by doing so, not forgetting those who have family working for the NHS who can't wait to get their hands on subsidised cars via their scheme.

I'm not a hypocrit, i freely admity it was worth investing the £1000/1750 it cost getting 3 cars LPG converted over the years, each conversion paid for itself in fuel tax savings and we got £10 a year VED discount for dual fuel :-)

The LPG wheeze is pretty well over now i enjoyed it while it lasted, and in due course so will the battery car wheeze get dialed back, so enjoy it while you can.

By the way, if the old Landcruiser Diesel dies beyond repair the next car will almost certainly be a Toyota (or Suzuki built by Toyota) hybrid, so its not fear of batteries as such, though i'd rather put my faith in Toyota build quality than any other manufacturer, not just for the safety aspect but long term durability.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt

yes i know a battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle, at current volumes of each sort.

Not so sure that is true, many are covered up so no one hears about them as John Cadogan has already mentioned, they are and will become more often and as some insurance companies are refusing to insure them kinda tells you how bad they really are.

personally I really don`t care what people travel about in as long as EVs stay away from me, I doubt they can improve, not for a long time yet anyway and as fossil fuels are cleaner and cheaper to produce I see no reason not to carry on using them. and as Net zero is impossible, apart from being a rather large con rather pointless and not just my opinion....

I also think healthwise there is a lot more to learn, and not in a good way in these giant electromagnetic vehicles, and don`t say they aren`t as they are........

Edited by Bolt on 01/03/2025 at 17:15

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - mcb100
‘ Not so sure that is true, many are covered up so no one hears about them’

How have you heard that many are covered up if no one hears about them?
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - pd

I'd love to see the public reaction if someone proposed a form of transport where you sit on top of many litres of highly flammable liquid in a plastic tank, pump it at high pressure though a rubber pipe and then basically set fire to it.

It's only because we are used to it that it is allowed.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt

I'd love to see the public reaction if someone proposed a form of transport where you sit on top of many litres of highly flammable liquid in a plastic tank, pump it at high pressure though a rubber pipe and then basically set fire to it.

It's only because we are used to it that it is allowed.

I think you missed the fact its safer, a lot more time should have been spent on electric cars to see how safe they actually are instead of make em quick and dump em on the public

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

The art of mixing high voltages with transport was mastered many decades ago.

London Transport tube apparently runs on 630 volts

Mainline electric trains run on 25,000 volts - enough to give you a bit of a jolt if it goes wrong.

It is just possible authorities have covered up countless rail electrocutions - seems unlikely.

There is of course a difference between trains and cars. Cars carry their own batteries and subject to unpredictable stresses - eg: potholes. Trains on the other hand have exposed high voltage cables and/or track and vulnerable pickups.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - pd

I'd love to see the public reaction if someone proposed a form of transport where you sit on top of many litres of highly flammable liquid in a plastic tank, pump it at high pressure though a rubber pipe and then basically set fire to it.

It's only because we are used to it that it is allowed.

I think you missed the fact its safer, a lot more time should have been spent on electric cars to see how safe they actually are instead of make em quick and dump em on the public

How many people have been killed in a spontaneously combusting EV? Facts needed to back up your assertion.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt

How many people have been killed in a spontaneously combusting EV?

You made the assumption I didn`t actually mention people being killed, on purpose, as I know what will be said, I`m too used to hearing the same old thing, its become predictable what people will say to defend EVs. anyway I will leave you to your assumptions

Ive said all I needed to say.!

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - alan1302

How many people have been killed in a spontaneously combusting EV?

You made the assumption I didn`t actually mention people being killed, on purpose, as I know what will be said, I`m too used to hearing the same old thing, its become predictable what people will say to defend EVs. anyway I will leave you to your assumptions

Ive said all I needed to say.!

All you've said is made up stuff with no basis in reality.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Bolt

How many people have been killed in a spontaneously combusting EV?

You made the assumption I didn`t actually mention people being killed, on purpose, as I know what will be said, I`m too used to hearing the same old thing, its become predictable what people will say to defend EVs. anyway I will leave you to your assumptions

Ive said all I needed to say.!

All you've said is made up stuff with no basis in reality.

Your welcome to think what you like, I know different thats why I will not be getting an EV

but again if they suit your needs fair enough. no good for me, though another point is the electronics are getting too expensive to repair on an EV too many reports of cars stuck in garages awaiting parts that forever go wrong

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - RT

too many reports of cars stuck in garages awaiting parts that forever go wrong

That seems to be common across all power types, not just EV - the Chinese supply chain needs to catch up.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Adampr

As it's been said a couple of times, I just wanted to pick up on "battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle, at current volumes of each sort.".

That's technically true, but only because it's a part of the equally true a 'battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle,.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - gordonbennet

As it's been said a couple of times, I just wanted to pick up on "battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle, at current volumes of each sort.".

That's technically true, but only because it's a part of the equally true a 'battery car is less likely to catch fire than an ICE vehicle,.

So far, if the average age of battery cars ever reaches the same as ICE (unlikely with current, hoho, designs) then we'll know for sure.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - Terry W

Some facts are always a disappointment to some , but far better than unsubstantiated bias or prejudice. Tusker fleet data reveals the truth about EV fires

Although Tusker had NO EV fires amongst its fleet, across the UK 390 were reported last year. The rate of fires is much, much less in EVs than ICE.

How much of a fire risk are electric vehicles? | Autocar

Do electric cars pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles? | Automotive industry | The Guardian

There are some caveats in the data - the population of EVs is much newer than ICE and less likely to have developed faults through aging or poor maintenance. It is also the case that although of much lower frequency, when they do occur EV fires are much more severe.

We can all decide for ourselves whether to go EV or not. But the crass "they are a fire risk" or similar condemnation is grossly simplistic.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 13 - leaseman

This thread is now closed, please 199CLICK HERE to go to Volume 14 *****

Edited by leaseman on 03/03/2025 at 04:50