What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Xileno

In this thread you may:

Ask any question for EVs which you need help, advice, suggestions or whatever

Discuss articles that have been hosted elsewhere (this may be reviewed after a while to see how it's working)

NB Some EV subjects may be more appropriate to continue in a separate thread. An example might be if someone is looking to buy a new car and giving an account of test-driving several ICE and EV vehicles. Another example might be if someone is giving an update on the EV they have bought and wants to feedback their experiences to others. Moderators will use their discretion in situations like these.

Rules:
No or minimal politics
No arguments or slanging matches
Nothing which we think is not following the spirit of the thread
Nothing that risks the future of this site (please see forum terms and conditions)

Any of the above are likely to be deleted. If the thread becomes difficult to maintain it will be removed.

When a thread gets to a certain size it will be made read-only and a new Volume created.

This is Volume 12. Previous Volumes will not be deleted but will get locked.

A list of previous Volumes can be found HERE



PLEASE NOTE:

When posting a NEW issue for discussion, please "Reply to" the first message in this thread, i.e. this one. This keeps each question in its own separate segment and stops each new question from getting mixed up in amongst existing questions. Also please remember to change the subject header.

Edited by Xileno on 21/09/2024 at 08:18

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

"The Chinese outfit also had the least reliable EV – the MG4 – which received an overall mark of 63.8%"

cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/mg-named-the-most-...3

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

From your link -Most unreliable electric SUV. Vauxhall Mokka-e suggesting the MG4 is therefore better. So how can that be true? Confusing.

As for the Mokka-e yes some do appear to have some resident gremlins. Mine so far has been flawless over three years of use. Wish I could say the same for the Vauxhall App. This really has problems, not least of which is a sudden refusal to talk to the car or my phone. Perhaps it's upset?

I do know Stellantis in their wisdom equipped the Mokka-e with a 3g modem, so it could talk to the net, over the air upgrades etc. All well and good but there's no longer a 3g network where I live. So now I'm reliant on the sketchy home wifi signal making it's way out to my garage. Which is a shame as the App tells me the EVs status allows cabin preheat in winter etc. Quite useful.

No fix has yet been offered by Vauxhall.

So I'm taking this tale of woe, woe and thrice woe, with appropriate pinch of sodium chloride. Titter ye not.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - alan1302

From your link -Most unreliable electric SUV. Vauxhall Mokka-e suggesting the MG4 is therefore better. So how can that be true? Confusing.

The MG4 is a classed as a hatchback and not an SUV, so the MG4 is worse than the Mokka, but the Mokka is the worst SUV EV

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

The MG4 is a classed as a hatchback and not an SUV, so the MG4 is worse than the Mokka, but the Mokka is the worst SUV EV

OK but surveys meh. My three years of Mokka-e ownership has been flawless.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Anita J

I like the MG4 EV more than mokka tbh

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

In 2021 when I bought the Mokka-e, the MG4 hadn't been launched in the UK. Think it came along in 2022, and the extended range version with the big battery I think 2023?

If I was buying today then I'd probably have gone for the MG4 Ext Range version, but that doesn't detract from my Mokka-e being totally flawless for the last three years.

That said if I replace it certainly the MG4 ER is on my very short, shortlist.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - expat

That said if I replace it certainly the MG4 ER is on my very short, shortlist.

check up on parts availability and price. Here in Australia MG parts are expensive and they often have to come from China meaning long waits. Things may be better in the UK but I wouldn't count on it.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Drive home last night in a Citroen E-C3, ‘mine’ for the next 2-3 weeks.
Starting price is £21,252 for the Plus and £22,502 for the better equipped Max.
95% of my mileage so far has been in heavy rain on the M6/M56/M60, so I’m not really in a position to offer much feedback, but it’s got very comfortable seats and a supple ride and wireless CarPlay works well.
It’s a 44kW/h battery, with just under 200 miles WLTP range and a power output of 83kW or 113PS.
More thoughts about it as I drive it on urban roads next week.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Brit_in_Germany

Here is an updated study of the experienced drop off of battery capacity.

www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - London calling

interesting article

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20241002-mystery-deaths-and-mass-layoffs-europe-s-green-battery-dream-northvolt-turns-into-nightmare

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - focussed

It's going to be interesting to know where all the billions of Northvolt's investment has gone - if it doesn't get hushed up.

Production at a quoted 5% having soaked up an estimated €5.3 billion in investment over 8 years says to me that this never was a viable operation.

Edited by focussed on 03/10/2024 at 21:36

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
A quick update on the Citroen E-C3.
It’s just the car for a ‘new to EV’ owner - it even ‘starts’ by turning a key in a barrel on the steering column.
I’m driving a LHD Max version, which has all the realistic technology onboard that you’d be looking for, but not much else.
Citroen have adopted Peugeot’s I-cockpit small, low set steering wheel, but it’s not as finicky to set up as it can be in a Pug.
The boot is 310 litres, and a good shape, whilst you can get a six footer in the back behind a sensibly sized driver.
If you’re looking for the last word in performance or razor sharp handling its not the car for you, but if it’s a comfortable car with similar performance to the equivalent petrol engined version, it’s a genuine game changer.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - paul 1963

Interesting mcb, enjoy your ev reports, can you do me a favour? Have a look under the bonnet, electric Berlingo I drove for a while used Toyota components surprisingly, the motor mounts etc were clearly marked with the Toyota stylised 'T', be interested to see if this new car has borrowed technology.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Thank you.

I can’t see anything with a Toyota logo, instead lots of Mopar icons - the parts division of Stellantis.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Thinking about it - Berlingo is a rebadged Toyota PROACE. Or vice versa.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - badbusdriver

The boot is 310 litres, and a good shape, whilst you can get a six footer in the back behind a sensibly sized driver.

Can i just clarify then that there is actually space for rear passengers feet?

Because when I went to look at a Zoe (which is very similar in size to the EC3). I was very disappointed with the foot space in the back. The combination of high floor and not enough space to get your feet under the back of the front seat meant that even for a modest sized individual like myself, it wasn't very comfortable (much less so than the Suzuki Ignis we had at the time, a car which is nearly 40cm shorter than the Zoe)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - bazza

Yes, Toyota Pro ace is a rebadged Citroen Berlingo/ Peugeot partner/ Vauxhall Combo and I think, now Fiat Doblo. Toyota have not sold their own design since the Hiace, a while ago now. But I do believe their warranties are longer.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - SLO76
I like these new gen small EV’s. The Citroen E-C3, Renault 4/5 and the Dacia Spring. These fit the role I see EV’s are most useful in - the second car. Most families have two cars and as we are finding, an EV fills this role perfectly for those with the ability to charge at home or work, both of which are options for me. I really like the new Renault 5 and very much look forward to your opinions on it.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
I’m working with Spring the week after next, but not sure I’ll get chance to drive it.
5 will probably be just in the New Year, looking forward to that one.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - edlithgow
Most families have two cars...

Ah, how the other a-bit-more-than-half live, eh?

But before going all class war knee jerky, I thought I'd better try and check that surprising-to-me-statement...

According to The RAC, not a very class warrior outfit, the proportion of UK households with 2 cars increased from 8% in 1971 (probably about when my general attitudes and assumptions were formed) to 34% in 2023, so still quite a bit under the minimum threshold for "most" to apply.

Thats "households" though, the general basis for census data collection.

From a quick look I didn't see data in terms of "families", but this seems to be defined by the census in terms of cohabitation, and doesn't require the presence of children.

"a married, civil partnership, or cohabiting couple, with or without children;"

IF thats the case, those 2-car "households" are apparently mostly also "families", discounting the odd 2-car singleton (as I was myself, briefly, before leaving for Taiwan, with a rotten 40 quid diesel Maestro AND a less rotten 300 quid petrol Nissan Sunny).

67% of households are'apparently considered families, so I THINK, by proportion, IF my arithmetic is correct, that means 50.7% of families have two cars.

Knock me dahn wiv a fevva, seems you are probably correct

The times they are a-changed

Edited by edlithgow on 16/10/2024 at 11:49

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
The passenger’s seat isn’t height adjustable and set sufficiently high to get my size 11’s underneath.
The driver’s seat is adjustable so can be set sufficiently high to add extra legroom.
Headroom isn’t an issue even with the seat at its highest.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

Latest news from Miami in the aftermath of the hurricane, the Fire Department have had to deal with another hazard.. EVs catching fire spontaneously when they are immersed in salt water. Perhaps they will fit the old Pyrene Fire extinguishers in all EVs in future ?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article293730084.html

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Andrew-T

Perhaps they will fit the old Pyrene Fire extinguishers in all EVs in future ?

I hope you are joking ? Those old extinguishers contained carbon tetrachloride, which doesn't co-exist happily with alkali metals. Luckily it has been hard to obtain for quite a while now,

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - focussed

Perhaps they will fit the old Pyrene Fire extinguishers in all EVs in future ?

I hope you are joking ? Those old extinguishers contained carbon tetrachloride, which doesn't co-exist happily with alkali metals. Luckily it has been hard to obtain for quite a while now,

I thought I remembered something about carbon tet from my father who was a firefighter.

At high temperatures in air, it decomposes or burns to produce poisonous phosgene. This was a common problem when carbon tetrachloride was used as a fire extinguisher:[21] There have been deaths due to its conversion to phosgene reported

Phosgene is extremely poisonous and was used as a chemical weapon during World War I, where it was responsible for 85,000 deaths. It is a highly potent pulmonary irritant and quickly filled enemy trenches due to it being a heavy gas.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Bromptonaut

Latest news from Miami in the aftermath of the hurricane, the Fire Department have had to deal with another hazard.. EVs catching fire spontaneously when they are immersed in salt water. Perhaps they will fit the old Pyrene Fire extinguishers in all EVs in future ?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article293730084.html

50,000 EVs and 17 fires in cars.

What actually happened in each of those 17?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

News that the EU are imposing a 35% import duty on Chinese cars imported into Northern Ireland under the terms of the Brexit Windsor agreement may mean that fewer residents won’t be able to Build Their Dreams !

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Brit_in_Germany

What is to stop someone buying an EV in the rest of the UK then driving it back home to NI?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - pd

News that the EU are imposing a 35% import duty on Chinese cars imported into Northern Ireland under the terms of the Brexit Windsor agreement may mean that fewer residents won’t be able to Build Their Dreams !

It makes life complicated for the seller or importer but the end purchaser shouldn't see much difference. The seller can claim back the import duty when the car is sold to a NI customer.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Engineer Andy

A report in the Telegraph has quoted BMW boss Oliver Zipse saying that the 2035 ban on selling ICE cars will put European makers at a severe disadvantage to their Chinese competitors (quite a bit being the over-reliance on Chinese-made batteries and Chinese car [and likely battery] manufacturers being heavily state supported).

He also stated that this will likely lead to a big reduction in the manufacturing base in Europe, not helped by the tapering off of demand for EVs once the more well-off have bought what they need.

I also note that other sources within the trade have said that non-Chinese car manufacturers have made governments acutely aware that they can no longer subsidise EV sales by selling them at a (big) loss, and, as I suspect, by ramping up ICE (including hybrids of all kinds) car prices, which is hurting overall sales as well as profitability.

That many Western governments (especially European ones, ours included) are also going 'full Net Zero' at the same time (ours has, in my view foolishly ramped up both [already daft and hideously unrealistic] targets) just exacerbated the problem.

Note that the National Energy System Operator (NESO) only sent out a warning to electricity grid operators on Monday that (gas-fired) back-up generators had to be brought online due to supply being so low (little wind, an import interconnector was down) that it was dangerously near actual demand levels.

Most of the backup capacity is now fuelled by imported fuels and electricity, and the new government is seemingly deliberately making the issue worse by decommissioning fossil fuel-based electricity generators and thinking wind turbines and PV arrays will pick up the slack, and if not, 'kindly' European nations will sell us electricity at a reasonable price.

Are those (nominally) in charge (more like puppets for the billionaire-backed green lobby) just really stupid, naive or in the pockets of the aforementioned lobbyists, who are set to gain yet more £Bns because of such policies, none of which will benefit the ordinary citizen, especially those on lower incomes.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

BMW complaining about cheap Chinese cars?

"The BMW i4 is the most affordable electric BMW, starting at around £50,000.""

Perhaps BMW are grossly overcharging people with more money than sense.

They developed a market leading small EV - the I3 - and junked it and went up market..Strategic error in the long term in my view.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - badbusdriver

BMW complaining about cheap Chinese cars?

"The BMW i4 is the most affordable electric BMW, starting at around £50,000.""

Perhaps BMW are grossly overcharging people with more money than sense.

They developed a market leading small EV - the I3 - and junked it and went up market..Strategic error in the long term in my view.

The i3 was a brilliant car (IMO) and the last BMW I actually liked and would choose to buy. But it was a commercial flop. It was a very expensive car new, and its carbon construction means high insurance costs and specialist skill required for accident repairs. Plus, it looked "odd" to most (potential punters), and so they didn't buy it.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Engineer Andy

BMW complaining about cheap Chinese cars?

"The BMW i4 is the most affordable electric BMW, starting at around £50,000.""

Perhaps BMW are grossly overcharging people with more money than sense.

They developed a market leading small EV - the I3 - and junked it and went up market..Strategic error in the long term in my view.

They probably cannot affor to compete against the Chinese manufacturers who have a far lower wages bill per worker and costs generally, but the product quality still isn't anywhere near as good.

As I indicated, EVs are having to be sold at huge discounts (losses) in order to meet EU sales mandates. Outsourcing manufacturing outside the EU or even into Eastern Europe is hardly going to be great for their home nations like Germany for jobs and the economy, is it?

Because so many have been using parts sourced from China (ironically to save costs to make EVs more affordable), it will take a decent amount of time and effort to bring back such things 'in house' (EU) to avoid those swingeing tariffs suddenly brought in - and well after the mandates for sales.

In addition (another Telegraph article from yesterday), because of these huge discounts, second hand EV prices have cratered, with the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) saying that 3 year values of EVs have dropped from 60% to now 35%.

Whilst this won't affect people who've bought outright and want to keep their cars for a long time (negating depreciation to a greater extent) or those on PCP deals who have legal contracts to either buy out the remainder at a previously agreed value or hand it back, people rolling over or buying another car on a new PCP deal will be worried.

This is because, sooner rather than later, finance companies who are now losing fortunes due to the much higher depreciation will be altering new contracts to reflect those much lower second hand values, which will make such contracts far less attractive, if viable at all.

This will, in my opinion, only worsen should car manufacturers get to the end of their tether and say 'enough' to the politicians pushing the EV sales mandates and start charging economic prices to actually make their EVs profitable.

The whole is a joke, if it wasn't such a disaster for us all. Like 95% of political decisions - so little thought about the consequences, but then, how many are bought and paid for by the green lobby?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - movilogo

The whole is a joke, if it wasn't such a disaster for us all. Like 95% of political decisions - so little thought about the consequences, but then, how many are bought and paid for by the green lobby?

Sadly, very little thought was given on the whole EV saga.

To reduce pollution, people should be encouraged to use public transport more. There should be more EV buses and train routes should be fully electrified - especially for commuter services. UK railway electrification stands at 37% only (in contrast Switzerland 100%, India 94%).

Of course public transport does not go door to door and outside larger towns it is a bit of challenge. But still people can be encouraged to WFH where possible. But instead commercial real estate investors have vested interested to push people back to offices - resulting in more commuting and more pollution.

Also, public transport, especially train fare, has become unaffordable for many people. A car is more affordable because after the initial purchase cost, typical journey cost is less than train fare and especially beneficial if 3-4 people travelling together.

As EV needs to be certain % of all vehicle sales, manufacturers are delaying or even throttling supply of HEV/ICE cars in order hit EV target. This in turn, pushes car prices up (both new & used) which pushing some people out of car ownership. Younger generation is lot less willing to drive - simply because it is too costly.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steve Rowson

I'm thinking of buying a secondhand EV - but primarily because I would like to use its battery to power my home (I use about 200 watts to run router, TV, lights and gas fired boiler - which is all I would need during a power cut) during a power cut. I'm thinking a Nissan Leaf.

My question is: How practical / easy is it to hook the battery in the Leaf up to my changeover switch?

(I have a generator and changeover switch so I can move to generator if necessary, but the generator is noisy and will drive my neighbours nuts if I have to use it for many hours).

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Brit_in_Germany

Very few cars are set to provide so-called vehicle to grid functionality. In addition to the car being suitable, the wallbox would also have to be compatible. A Chinese storage battery would be a better solution.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

I'm thinking of buying a secondhand EV - but primarily because I would like to use its battery to power my home (I use about 200 watts to run router, TV, lights and gas fired boiler - which is all I would need during a power cut) during a power cut. I'm thinking a Nissan Leaf.

My question is: How practical / easy is it to hook the battery in the Leaf up to my changeover switch?

(I have a generator and changeover switch so I can move to generator if necessary, but the generator is noisy and will drive my neighbours nuts if I have to use it for many hours).

Some Americans with generators quieten them by placing a wooden box structure over them and connect the exhaust to a used car exhaust pipe and silencer.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - edlithgow

I'm thinking of buying a secondhand EV - but primarily because I would like to use its battery to power my home (I use about 200 watts to run router, TV, lights and gas fired boiler - which is all I would need during a power cut) during a power cut. I'm thinking a Nissan Leaf.

My question is: How practical / easy is it to hook the battery in the Leaf up to my changeover switch?

(I have a generator and changeover switch so I can move to generator if necessary, but the generator is noisy and will drive my neighbours nuts if I have to use it for many hours).

Some Americans with generators quieten them by placing a wooden box structure over them and connect the exhaust to a used car exhaust pipe and silencer.

The Craig Vetter website describes and illustrates a cardboard-box-and-eggbox based motorcycle silencer that, though perhaps only intended as a joke, was apparently pretty effective. Mounted where a top-box would go, with a cardboard exit chimney. In this application would presumably also soak up 2-stroke oil fumes.

Poor mans particulate filter.

You might want to incorporate an extinguisher though.

http://craigvetter.com/pages/Other_Designs/Bad_ideas.html

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - focussed

"How practical / easy is it to hook the battery in the Leaf up to my changeover switch?"

The Leaf battery pack has a terminal voltage of between 400 to 380 volts DC.

www.qnovo.com/blogs/inside-the-battery-of-a-nissan...f

Your generator produces 230 volt AC to the changeover switch to power your house electrics.

DC into AC doesn't work without an inverter to convert DC to AC.

Inverters are either 12 - 24 or occasionally 36 volt DC supply, not 400 volts DC

Forget the leaf battery scheme - it's dangerous and impractical.

Buy a silent generator, preferably an inverter generator which will supply decent quality electrical power.

Suggestion - www.justgenerators.co.uk/loncin-lc2000i-5-petrol-i...l

Noise figure quoted is 52 DbA - that's very quiet.

Loncin make excellent engines - partnered with BMW and Augusta motorcycles.

I've got two Loncin motors, both have been no trouble.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
‘ Very few cars are set to provide so-called vehicle to grid functionality. In addition to the car being suitable, the wallbox would also have to be compatible. A Chinese storage battery would be a better solution.’

And because of its CHAdeMO charging port, which supports bi-directional charging as part of its standard,LEAF is one of them.
It’ll handle Vehicle to Load, Vehicle to Home and Vehicle to Grid.
I think you’d also need a bi-directional charge point at the house end of the charging cable, and a 2013 onwards, UK-built LEAF.
LEAF forums will tell you more.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

When faced with a massive servicing bill from BMW for his I3 the owner told me he questioned the price as the car has no engine.

Not receiving a satisfactory reply he took the car to an independent who did the work at a fraction of the price !

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

Having looked at I3 with a view to buying, Normal servicing for the electric only model is every two years: change brake fluid, check everything works, change cabin filter. Parts cost approx £20

If REX model, change oil, and oil and air filters in addition.Parts cost in total about £100.

Eventually change gearbox oil..

Normal BMW charge £375 +

Changing 12v battery is a PIA.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

The boss of Ford North America has announced that he is driving a Chinese EV called a XiaomiSU7 which he has imported after a recent visit to China

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Just spent a few days in and around (but sadly not driving) the Dacia Spring.
First thing to say is that it’s a small, A-segment car - longer than the old 108/C1/Aygo triplets, but shorter than a 208/Clio/Corsa.
26.8kW/h battery means a 140 mile WLTP range on the combined test, but a lesser published 190 miles urban range. The small battery makes it the first EV in Europe to come in at under 1000KG.
So one battery, but two power outputs - 45HP and 65HP. To my way of thinking, all this car has to do is to be able to is get cleanly out of junctions, join roundabouts safely and keep up with urban traffic. The 0-62 times are listed as under 20 seconds and under 14 seconds respectively. About what you’d expect from an equivalently powered petrol version.
Two trim levels, Epression and Extreme, both on steel wheels (the 45 on 14’s, the 65 on 15’s) and a 10.1 inch touchscreen on an Extreme, not on Expression.
Should you need to charge of 0-100% on a 7kW home charger, it’s under 4 hours. Comfortably within a typical five hour overnight cheap charging tariff window.
Extreme also comes with a Vehicle to load capability and adaptor, meaning you can run mains powered devices from the traction battery. We had a small set of fairy lights plugged into one, and rough maths suggested a 100-0% battery would power them for 310 days….

Edited by mcb100 on 26/10/2024 at 09:53

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
I should have added prices, really -
Expression 45 - £14,995
Expression 65 - £15,995
Extreme (65 only) - £16,995
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - badbusdriver

While it is nice to see a small, light and cheap EV. The Spring frustrates me for much the same reason the Toyota Aygo X does, that of very poor packaging. A car that small needn't be as cramped for rear passengers as both are, just look at the Suzuki Ignis for evidence of what is possible within an overall length of 3.7m.

And while the Spring can be excused to an extent because of it's budget price, I cant help wondering just how much dearer it would have been were Dacia to add (or at least offer as an option) sliding rear seats. I bring this up partly because that was a party piece of the Ignis and partly because (in volume anyway) the Spring seems to have a (IMO) larger boot than necessary for a car that small.

Maybe also worth pointing out that while the Spring is only just about to arrive in the UK, it has actually been around since 2021, and is actually based on the 2015 Renault Kwid

Edited by badbusdriver on 26/10/2024 at 10:20

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
At £14,995 for a full EV, coming in at under a tonne, compromises have to be made. A sliding rear seat needs additional engineering, which involves weight and cost.
Both Aygo X and Ignis are more expensive than Spring, with higher running costs. Charged at 7p per kW/h, Spring is potentially good for 190 urban miles for £1.88 - less than a penny per mile. If I walked 190 miles, I’d wear more than £1.88’s worth of sole off my shoes - it’s cheaper than walking :). Yes, I know, I’m being flippant, before anyone mentions tyre wear, cost of car, etc…
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - pd

Although it has been around since 2021 I believe it has just received a quite major facelift which coincides with the UK launch.

As far as I am aware, at the moment anyway, all Springs are made in China which might be a challenge in the EU pricing wise next month with the new tariffs so I suspect the UK market will be targeted quite heavily by Dacia with it.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

Just a reminder to those on timed cheap power window EV tarriffs. Clocks go back , don't forget to change your EV charging periods. Mine was 12 till 5am now 1 till 6am.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Engineer Andy

Just a reminder to those on timed cheap power window EV tarriffs. Clocks go back , don't forget to change your EV charging periods. Mine was 12 till 5am now 1 till 6am.

Do you have to manually start / stop that or do home units have a timer system, either on the charger base itself or via a connected phone/tablet app? It would be rather a pain to have to stay awake or go to bed then get up to start (and stop) the charger?

I presume they at least have an in-built system to reduce the output as the car nears 100% charged to trickle charge, rather like my home AA battery charger and mobile phone does?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
There’s usually the option to set a timer either for the charger (incorrect terminology, but universally used) app, or on the car itself.
Don’t use both as it may cause confusion.
When it comes to rate of charge, it’s the car that dictates what it’ll take, through the pre-installed ‘charge curve’. It’ll dictate to the source what it wants, depending on state of charge, rate of charge, temperature.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - HGV ~ P Valentine

Avoid them like the plague, they could end up killing your family while they sleep. Sounds a bit harsh I know but that is exactly what nearly happened today according to the BBC news, the only thing that saved this family was that the car was parked in the drive and not in the garage under their house.

The houseowner and his family managed to get out, and stated that the ferocity of the fire was amazing, and not in a good way.

The car was not a cheap make either, but a Mercedes. Merc say it may take up to 12 months before they know the cause, and what is the betting they will not make that info public. It reminded me of that factory that went up in flames after they converted it to an all electric car production facility.

Maybe I missed it but we never did hear about how it started even though most of us can figure it out, but, they where very quick to state that "we do not know what caused it but we do know it was not the electric cars, or the batteries they stored indoors to go in them", if that was true then you must believe in coincidence in that it happened after the conversion to all electric.

'Why did our electric car parked in Spratton burst into flames?' - BBC News

Edited by HGV ~ P Valentine on 28/10/2024 at 23:17

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

The make of car has probably less than you might think to do with 'prestigious' brands. Given there's only a handful of suppliers . MB buy them from CatL.

Many automakers use batteries from Contemporary Amperex Technology Co Limited (CATL), the world's largest producer of electric vehicle (EV) batteries:

  • Tesla: A strategic partner of CATL

  • BMW: CATL's first main customer

  • Volkswagen: A collaborator of CATL

  • Ford: A strategic partner of CATL that is working with the company to build a battery plant in Michigan

  • Honda: A collaborator of CATL

  • Hyundai: A collaborator of CATL

  • Toyota: A collaborator of CATL

  • Volvo: A strategic partner of CATL

CATL's batteries are known for being safe, economical, and high-performance. The company is expanding its global presence by building manufacturing bases and R&D centers in countries like Germany, Japan, France, Canada, and Indonesia.

They're Chinese, who have six of the top ten battery suppliers.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - focussed

"Ford: A strategic partner of CATL that is working with the company to build a battery plant in Michigan"

Why is Ford building a battery plant in Michigan?

"Also in August, the company (Ford) said it was going to move some of its battery production out of foreign factories into US locations so it could qualify for more federal subsidies available under the Inflation Reduction Act. As I reported here last year, (Robert Bryce substack)

Ford and other automakers are aiming to collect tens of billions of dollars via the 45X tax credit in the IRA for making batteries in the US. For instance, Ford is building a battery plant in Marshall, Michigan, which is expected to create about 4,200 jobs. According to Good Jobs First, each job at the new Ford plant will cost taxpayers $3.4 million"

"The company’s losses on its EV business, known as Model e, for the first nine months of 2024 total $3.7 billion. For reference, that $3.7 billion loss is equal to the profit (Ford calls it EBIT, short for earnings before interest and taxes) it made on Ford Blue, the division that makes internal combustion vehicles"

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

"the only thing that saved this family was that the car was parked in the drive and not in the garage under their house"

You mean they do not have smoke alarms in their house or garage?

Gross negligence on the house owner's part if you ask me.

A Garage under a house is a major risk - no matter what kind of car is used and as ICE cars are 60 + times more likely to catch fire than EVs....(Factual)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Andrew-T

A Garage under a house is a major risk - no matter what kind of car is used and as ICE cars are 60 + times more likely to catch fire than EVs..

To offset that, ICE fires are usually easier to stop than an EV battery fire. Combining all risks is tricky to make an overall calculation.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - galileo

A Garage under a house is a major risk - no matter what kind of car is used and as ICE cars are 60 + times more likely to catch fire than EVs....(Factual)

The majority of ICE cars are years older than EVs, therefore the probability of deteriorated wiring and fuel systems due to age and wear and tear is greater.

The 60x figure may not take this into account. I completed Six-Sigma training some years ago and it is essential to compare apples with apples, not oranges.

Among things discussed were the airplane safety numbers: these usually quote fatalities per passenger mile, to prove air travel is safer than road travel.

Comparing fatalities per journey, the difference is far less, given the relative distances per journey.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Remove the word ‘electric’ and see if it’s a story that’d make the BBC website.

The fact that emergency services have left the car on the drive suggests it’s not a battery fire.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - 72 dudes

A strange case indeed, which actually happened on October 7th, not last weekend as the news stories tried to make out.

Of course we need to know the cause, but the owner talks about seeing vapour escaping from the car.

At the bottom of the news story, not sure if it's the one linked, it says that Northamptonshire Fire and Rescue have attended 277 vehicle fires this year, " 3 of which can be described as hybrid or EVs"

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Brit_in_Germany
Remove the word ‘electric’ and see if it’s a story that’d make the BBC website.

Like this one?

www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2l7pnn88o

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - badbusdriver
Remove the word ‘electric’ and see if it’s a story that’d make the BBC website.

Like this one?

www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly2l7pnn88o

Err, no, not like that one.

That is a story about arson, as opposed to a car catching fire by itself............

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - HGV ~ P Valentine

OOPs sorry I will correct.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - HGV ~ P Valentine

'Why did our electric car parked in Spratton burst into flames?' - BBC News

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - HGV ~ P Valentine

I hope for 2 things with this reply ..

1 ~ That these vehicles are not safe. For those who are going to state statistics, I will not argue the numbers, but I can tell you. If its any member of your family that is dead as a result of something like this happening. There is no comfort knowing the other 99% of the population are ok.

2 ~ I urge you to never park your electric car in any underground car park, where there are people sleeping above it.

Ps Wasn't it an electric vehicle that caused that fire in Luton airport multi storey car park ? At the very least the electric vehicles made it a lot worse then it needed to be.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

e sleeping above it.

Ps Wasn't it an electric vehicle that caused that fire in Luton airport multi storey car park ? At the very least the electric vehicles made it a lot worse then it needed to be.

No it was a diesel Range Rover Discovery. (Usual lies on social media)

The issues were:

1.Plastic car fuel tanks/hoses melt in a fire and whoosh.

2. NO sprinklers... (unbelievable)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Brit_in_Germany

Will 40 tonne trucks be banned because they kill people sitting in cars they squash on the motorway?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - alan1302

I hope for 2 things with this reply ..

1 ~ That these vehicles are not safe. For those who are going to state statistics, I will not argue the numbers, but I can tell you. If its any member of your family that is dead as a result of something like this happening. There is no comfort knowing the other 99% of the population are ok.

2 ~ I urge you to never park your electric car in any underground car park, where there are people sleeping above it.

Ps Wasn't it an electric vehicle that caused that fire in Luton airport multi storey car park ? At the very least the electric vehicles made it a lot worse then it needed to be.

1. EVs are very safe - why do you think they aren't? An isolated incident is an isolated incident. Or would you not want an ICE vehicle either as they catch fire and kill people

2 . Yet you are happy to park an ICE vehicle underground?

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - bananastand

FYI - the other week I heard a loud BANG outside my house and it was a car crash. A car pulled out into the path of a MG EV and there was quite a lot of crumpled bodywork. I checked the reg and the EV had been registered new exactly 7 days before. I predict a write off!

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - badbusdriver

I hope for 2 things with this reply ..

1 ~ That these vehicles are not safe.

So you hope for, 'that these vehicles are not safe'?.

For those who are going to state statistics, I will not argue the numbers, but I can tell you. If its any member of your family that is dead as a result of something like this happening. There is no comfort knowing the other 99% of the population are ok.

1, No members of the family in the link you posted died. 2, the fact that nobody knew there was a fire going on in the garage suggests no smoke/fire alarm was in place. 3, So if someone had lost their life as a result, it would have been due to that rather than the car being electric.

I urge you to never park your electric car in any underground car park, where there are people sleeping above it.

How would you suggest an EV owner find out if anyone is asleep above an underground car park?

Also (just for reference), is it OK to park an EV in an overground car park with people sleeping under it?

Edited by badbusdriver on 30/10/2024 at 13:37

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Andrew-T

<< How would you suggest an EV owner find out if anyone is asleep above an underground car park? Also (just for reference), is it OK to park an EV in an overground car park with people sleeping under it? >>

I think you may be playing devil's advocate here, BBD. [1] it may be reasonable for an EV driver to assume that a block of flats (for example) might well have sleeping occupants during normal night hours ? [2] I don't know of many situations matching your second description, but it would be much harder to detect.

Maybe EVs should always be parked at the kerbside to make it safer and easier for the emergency vehicles to reach ? :-)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
‘ I will not argue the numbers, but I can tell you. ’

Just try reading that back to yourself, see if it makes sense second time around.
You’re saying that we can ignore facts, data and evidence because you don’t believe them?
The knowledge that you still thought that the airport car park fire was caused by an EV is a fair illustration of the amount of critical thinking you’ve applied to this, other than, I suspect, gathering misinformation from random parts of the internet and certain sections of the press.

I’ve slept in an EV - where does this fall on the scale of risk?
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

Own two EVs for over three years now. Still waiting for a fiery catastrophe of biblical proportions. Rather disappointingly they just seem to work flawlessly.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

What you mean is you bought wisely, read the manual, followed the instructions and charged sensibly. And did not drive through floods.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

Yep, though I have driven the Mokka-e through some deep puddles no more than six inches or so. Not a problem.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

Glad it wasn’t salt water EE.

This is what happened in the recent floods in Miami . 11 EVs caught fire when exposed to salt water !

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/climate-change/article293730084.html

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Ethan Edwards

Yes EVs are highly water resistant but not totally waterproof. Seals fail , salt water gets in to the motor and causes a short. Bad news. Traction batteries being liquid cooled usually are leak proof. But ICE cars are far less water resistant it's just they don't have HV sources. Still ruined though.

Saw a flood survivor M3 on AnnaMaria Island (FL) Hurr Helene, and whilst it had been mostly under sea water, it had failed to ignite. The seals had held. So the media wouldn't have reported on it.

Media over reporting EV fires and ignoring ICE car fires ( as they're not 'news') is distorting reality.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

Well worth reading: the shape of EVS coming in 2025

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhB7RagAONg

Goodbye European car makers.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - mcb100
Given that Smart is now a joint collaboration between Geely and Mercedes-Benz, and that the founder and CEO of Geely has a significant stake in both M-B and Aston Martin, it may not always be obvious how wide is the influence of the Chinese auto industry.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - alan1302

Well worth reading: the shape of EVS coming in 2025

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhB7RagAONg

Goodbye European car makers.

It should give them a bit of a kick up the ass - this has been coming for years and they have just stood back and let it happen.

One of the large smartphone makes - Xiiaomi - have launched a car in China earlier this year and have sold more that 100,000 despite only starting to make cars in 2023 - they move with such speed and efficiency the European makes need to wake up and start competing or they will be wiped out.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Terry W

The writing was on the wall 5-10 years ago. !0 years ago the Chinese were significantly behind the curve in terms of quality with limited brand strengths.

The European manufacturers should have been leading the charge to EV and already selling cars into the market with well established brands and competitive prices making market entry for newcomers difficult.

Bluntly - the European manufacturers have failed. The Chinese are producing decent quality products at a lower prices off the back of high global volumes and battery manufacturing capability.

Cars used to be (and for some still are) aspirational objects of performance, design, quality etc. For many they are now simply devices to get from A to B cheaply comfortably, reliably.

As with TVs, consumer electronics, motorbikes, etc we have missed - the boat - through arrogance, ignorance, denial or possibly a bit of all three.

Whether it matters is another issue - their importance for the economy and jobs in manufacturing has been declining over the long term as processes become automated. As with other industries lost - their time has simply been and is now gone.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

You may have overlooked the fact that because the way the Chinese generate power their industry pays almost three quarters less for their electricity than its competitors Terry !

High energy costs has bought many German car manufacturers to their knees ! The Industrial Revolution in Britain depended on cheap energy and without this we simply can’t compete any longer .

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

You may have overlooked the fact that because the way the Chinese generate power their industry pays almost three quarters less for their electricity than its competitors Terry !

High energy costs has bought many German car manufacturers to their knees ! The Industrial Revolution in Britain depended on cheap energy and without this we simply can’t compete any longer .

We are going to have to invest over £70B to meet Net Zero. Anyone - like Miliband - who claims energy prices will fall... (and many supporters of renewables say they are cheaper) - is either a liar , incapable of doing sums or a lying incompetent,

Electricity demand is forecast to nearly double in the next two decades due to heat pumps and BEVs. Equipment lead times are measured in 5 or 10 year period.s We have no major installations planned with planning permission. The chances of us meeting demand without MAJOR importation of electricity is zero. That will mean costs will rise substantially on their own. The Costs of a £70B investment are likely to double electricity prices.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - gordonbennet

You may have overlooked the fact that because the way the Chinese generate power their industry pays almost three quarters less for their electricity than its competitors Terry !

High energy costs has bought many German car manufacturers to their knees ! The Industrial Revolution in Britain depended on cheap energy and without this we simply can’t compete any longer .

This is also why staple food costs are heading northwards at an alarming rate and only set to rise ever more dramatically as what has been set in motion by those who know best matures.

I didn't realise until i started working where i currently am and saw for myself just how much power a food production facility requires, let alone the costs of farming, farming i might add the current govt (meet the new boss, same as the old boss) appears intent on destroying.

Thank goodness the govt had the foresight to mothball a few of the relaible coal fired power stations for when the smelly stuff hits the fan so we have a fallback, titter ye not.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Terry W

The solution is not reverting to old technology. Energy cost savings are but a small part of the reason the west has missed the boat.

Chinese success in manufacturing consumer goods eagerly bought by western consumers for the last two decades and now cars is through a government which is focussed on enabling and supporting selected industries.

This includes cheap energy, but also eliminating barriers in planning for new factories, support for new associated infrastructure (power, communications etc), more limited H&S and environmental legislation, finance for investment etc

Folk may recall images of a new hospital being built in 6 days during Covid. They can build a Gigafactory for EV batteries in under a year. They are apparently 30% faster than Europe and the US in taking an EV from concept to production.

The UK is still fiddling around over a single Gigafactory - China has ~200. Bluntly - we have been to slow, wedded to past behaviours, lacking in focus and it is no surprise we have lost the race.

The Chinese are manufacturing "Olympians" - intensively training for victory. The west thinks a jog round the local park twice a week will bring glory, It is we who are deluded, not the Chinese competing unfairly.

Whether we wish to compete or simply enjoy the easy life in second place is another matter.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Andrew-T

And do the Chinese have trade unions ? :-)

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Terry W

And do the Chinese have trade unions ? :-)

There is a single Trade Union with about 300m members - effectively state sponsored. I suspect it creates the illusion of workers rights - whilst ultimately doing precisely what the state mandates.

Labour laws make Europe an expensive place to manufacture. It is a trade off between manufacturing flexibility and employee welfare - if the priority is competitiveness, the less restrictive legislation the better.

It may be acceptable to the Chinese - until just a couple of decades ago they were a largely backwards, agricultural. low income and low expectation nation. A decent job, car, schooling, property, food, medical care are worth a little sacrifice!!

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

Perhaps you are not aware of another aspect of car manufacturing in China Terry?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

ON TOPIC

Buying a BMW i3 next week.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - paul 1963

ON TOPIC

Buying a BMW i3 next week.

Nice! Let us know how you get on.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - madf

ON TOPIC

Buying a BMW i3 next week.

Nice! Let us know how you get on.

will do: 33kW Range extender pre April 2017 so nil/./low VED

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Steveieb

On the subject of the i3 . live driven one once at Millbrook but BMW insisted on accompanying me.

Understand they have a BMW motorcycle engine as a range extender , which I’ve heard affects the VED . Is that correct?

Let me know what the ride is like in real conditions.

Speaking to someone who refused to get the servicing done at BMW because of the cost . He took it to an independent as there is not much to go wrong with an electric motor .

Cleveley Electric Cars in Cheltenham have experience of fixing the electronics but ran into trouble getting assistance from the local BMW dealer in coupling up the new part to the cars computer. Resorted to contacting Head Office in the end !

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 12 - Terry W

Perhaps you are not aware of another aspect of car manufacturing in China Terry?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/02/01/china-carmakers-implicated-uyghur-forced-labor

Lots of maybes and speculation, little or no hard evidence.

  • it may happen a lot and is clearly undesirable,
  • it may occur on the fringes - not good but not surprising
  • it may simply be mischief making sponsored by European manufacturers

The same type of speculation could no doubt be applied to other products you may buy from China - TVs, smartphones, kitchen appliances, clothing, furniture etc etc etc.

We all have a choice:

  • you are free to choose to source the items you buy from those organisations that you regard as of unimpeachable integrity (if they actually exist), or,
  • as I will freely concede, buy from those who seem OK unless proven otherwise.