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I think one of the issues is people really don't understand how electricity is priced and sold which is why they have to quote the stupid "price cap" figure every time prices change.
Not enough consumers seem to be a able to work out a unit price and how it relates to consumption which means they can't seem to deal with working out the running costs of a car which works in kW per mile (unless a Tesla).
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Not sure which units Tesla uses, but Polestar use kW/h per 100 miles, same as Tesla?
Omoda’s website quotes kW/h per 100km.
Just give us a universal miles per kW/h and be done with it….
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Just give us a universal miles per kW/h and be done with it….
Europeans have been metric almost since Napoleon marched all over many of them, so litres are their standard unit, while we stubbornly persist in thinking in gallons, even tho no-one has bought a gallon of fuel for decades - meaning a pointless 4.546 factor all the time.
Not only that, Europeans think in terms of less fuel for a standard distance (100km) while we think of getting further for a standard quantity. Minds will have to be changed somewhere.
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Autotrader currently has new petrol C3 for £17900 discounted from a list of £21100.
If the E-C3 is £21990, the premium is between £900-4000. It remains to be seen by how much and how soon the EV version is discounted. Don't know if the spec of each is similar - although I suspect the EV is likely to be higher spec as more recently launched.
A £1k premium would be comfortably repaid by fuel savings within 2 years. A £4k premium may put off new car buyers as they are unlikely to recover the additional purchase price within their ownership period.
It is pure speculation what the trade in difference may be after (say) three years.
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I don’t usually speculate, but I think I’m right in saying that when the C3 catches up with E-C3 in body shape, they’ll be the same price.
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‘Value’ is always a more difficult metric to promote, but any number of online total cost of ownership calculators will show that even with a higher list price, an EV charged at home (and even more so with a cheap overnight tariff) will result in savings over an x year period. That said, we’re seeing Dacia Spring along soon with a starting price of £14,995 and I’m picking up a Citroën E-C3 later this month, this one starting at £21,990. Will report back on the Citroën once I have it. In other news, yesterday saw the publication of a YouGov survey into ICE driver’s knowledge of EV’s. The results were dispiriting, to say the least. If anyone’s interested, it’s the link below - transportandenergy.com/2024/09/02/most-petrol-car-.../
To be honest, that piece looked like propaganda to me, given the site it's published on looks like to me a pro-EV one, especially as the 'data' for the experts to 'quote' as at best very subjective, and funny how we don't see how they come by it and the methodology used.
Notice also how the 'running costs' of EVs seems to only include 'fuel' and not insurance, plus there must be a good reason why second hand values of EVs are dropping at the same time as insurance costs are significantly going up.
I personally don't think we're being told the truth - fully or in part - here.
I would also note that a LOT of people (me included) live either in a flat, a terraced house or a house with a communal /allocated parking area, meaning no home charging physically, legally or financially possible, not just for the moment, but ever, unless enormous amount of taxpayer money is invested for a long time to provide such facilities.
As has been said many times, most often, an EV can be suitable for the better off (who are far more likely to live in a house with a driveway / garage and the space / electrical system capacity and means to install a fast+ charger), particularly as a second car doing low annual mileages for local work.
For the less well off commuter, not really unless you are lucky enough to have excellent charging coverage locally, which isn't the case for most people.
Equivalent public charging that is as quick, convenient, reliable and safe (security) as ICE filling stations is a LONG way from being in place. I only know of one such facility within 30 miles of my home, and that's in a 'motorway' service stop - certainly not viable for most ordinary people with no way of getting home charging.
All the other '(ICE) filling stations in the area have either no EV ultra-fast charging points or a handful have perhaps one or two in a (formerly) spare area. Other public charging at (some larger) supermarkets and public car parks are average at best, often poor, because they are either not monitored properly for reliability / security and often are of the lower charging rate / higher price type.
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As has been said many times, most often, an EV can be suitable for the better off
Quite so.
EV is good for 80% of people for 80% of their journeys. However, those people need cars which can do 100% of all their journeys. Those 80% people can't afford a 2nd car for remaining 20% of their journeys.
Government should encourage EVs which are cheap small city cars where range is not an issue, thus encourage multi car families EV being their proffered 2nd/3rd car. For single car families an EV needs to tick all boxes.
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Anecdotal to be sure but I too have two cars. Both EV and the longest legs one 201m wltp . Haven't needed anything else in three years of ownership. Last bought petrol in Sept 2021. It's easily done as long as you can home charge.
The only barrier for most will be to ignore the media FUD, do your own research and take a chance. You'll not regret it.
Edited by Ethan Edwards on 03/09/2024 at 17:52
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We need to separate environmental, logistical and financial concerns. Too many comments select the concern which best suits a preconceived answer:
- those with the ability to charge off road currently benefit most. They will typically be better off and able to afford larger properties. They may be able to make use of cheap overnight or variable rates.
- the financial benefit is likely temporary - as EV ownership increases, financial benefits will decrease - fewer cheap rates, road charges to replace fuel duties
- those without off road facilities will be reliant on public charging. Rates vary 40-80p per unit depending on location and provider. 40p kwh is higher than a domestic supply but typically less per mile than petrol.
- the environmental benefit of EV using green tech for generation are overwhelming irrespective of personal capacity for recharging
- those covering normal mileages will need to charge 1 or 2 times a week. For those without off road charging this would be an inconvenience which may be offset by another activity - shopping, gym, cinema etc.
- frequent high mileage users will have journeys interrupted by high cost recharging.. Those a few times a year do a long journey EV merely need some sensible planning.
- green generation + EV largely insulates the UK from the risks of international conflict, price fluctuations associated with oil and gas.
One could continue to buy ICE for another 10 years and be driving one for the next 25 years. Personal view - the strategy makes complete sense in environmental and supply risk terms. If you don't like it - tough!!!
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This is what the Chief executive of the BVR LA has to say about the used car market for EVs
From todays Telegraph:-
y, the chief executive of the BVRLA, to warn in July: “The used car market for EVs is, I hesitate to say, very close to what any economist would call market failure
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Remember the FUD bring quoted as to incredibly high insurance costs for EVs?
Just got my renewal through from LV. 40 quid cheaper than last year. Last year switching TO LV saved me shed loads. For me, so I realise it's just anecdotal the cost is pretty much identical to what I used to pay for my Qashqai and my Vitara.
Super happy with that.
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This is what the Chief executive of the BVR LA has to say about the used car market for EVs
From todays Telegraph:-
y, the chief executive of the BVRLA, to warn in July: “The used car market for EVs is, I hesitate to say, very close to what any economist would call market failure
It's taken a while to settle down but EVs are certainly selling and trade prices now stable. Prices have actually gone up a bit this month.
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- "green generation + EV largely insulates the UK from the risks of international conflict, price fluctuations associated with oil and gas."
Just wait for a windless couple of weeks - usually end November/early December.. Usually calm associated with fog/low cloud. Happens nearly every year. EVERY available power station powered by burning something runs flat out.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to store the energy required except at huge cost and as no new nuclear power stations have been ordered yet - and remember planning takes a decade - then:
we are going either to have widescale blackouts or keep gas power going for decades.
This is not FUD but factual.
Anyone who is unaware of this is unaware of a KEY flaw - which anyone who has looked at the issue is keeping quiet on.
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A couple of weeks during which the emphasis on UK power production shifts towards fossil fuels before going back again is not going to affect the overall picture, where we are able to rely increasingly on wind and solar output.
Why do I get the impression that there are a few posters here who keep trying to find reasons - any reasons - not to embrace a less polluted world?
Every new thread on EVs seems to bring them out.
Edited by FP on 04/09/2024 at 13:11
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A couple of weeks during which the emphasis on UK power production shifts towards fossil fuels before going back again is not going to affect the overall picture, where we are able to rely increasingly on wind and solar output.
Why do I get the impression that there are a few posters here who keep trying to find reasons - any reasons - not to embrace a less polluted world?
Every new thread on EVs seems to bring them out.
I only post reality. If you don't like it, explain where what I post is incorrect. After all, all I write is true.. No new nukes on order, long planning times, calm weather, cost of storage etc..
You cannot generate green power when the sun is not shining nor the wind blowing.
I did not mention the wind farms producing, not connected properly to the Grid so being paid for power which is not used. We can afford to lose the odd £billion of course.!
Nor the National Grid claiming it was prepared for EVs in 2020 now suddenly needing to spend the odd £50B or so to meet demand....
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I only post reality. If you don't like it, explain where what I post is incorrect. After all, all I write is true.. No new nukes on order, long planning times, calm weather, cost of storage etc..
You cannot generate green power when the sun is not shining nor the wind blowing.
I did not mention the wind farms producing, not connected properly to the Grid so being paid for power which is not used. We can afford to lose the odd £billion of course.!
Nor the National Grid claiming it was prepared for EVs in 2020 now suddenly needing to spend the odd £50B or so to meet demand....
I think there are different realities for different folk.
If you take the technology and capacity that exists today and overlay that with projected increases in demand for EVs then there are clearly problems ahead.
I tend to take the view that supply and technology will flex with demand as time passes:
- the nuclear plan runs out to 2050 - the won't all be built next week
- the National Grid investment plan covers several years - I don't expect it to be complete by 2025, nor does it need to be
- storage of surplus green energy is an issue now - but the average EV has the capacity to store ~50kwh representing ~5-7 days average household consumption
- there are 33m vehicles registered on UK roads of which ~1m are EV today. The other 32m will take another 25 years to appear - not an immediate problem!
The completely foolish is to assert that we would be better off carrying on as we are when we know with a high level of confidence that:
- oil and gas supply is dependant on world stability and markets
- oil and gas as commodities will get increasingly scarce as reserves are consumed
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I only post reality. If you don't like it, explain where what I post is incorrect. After all, all I write is true.. No new nukes on order, long planning times, calm weather, cost of storage etc..
You cannot generate green power when the sun is not shining nor the wind blowing.
I did not mention the wind farms producing, not connected properly to the Grid so being paid for power which is not used. We can afford to lose the odd £billion of course.!
Nor the National Grid claiming it was prepared for EVs in 2020 now suddenly needing to spend the odd £50B or so to meet demand....
I think there are different realities for different folk.
If you take the technology and capacity that exists today and overlay that with projected increases in demand for EVs then there are clearly problems ahead.
I tend to take the view that supply and technology will flex with demand as time passes:
- the nuclear plan runs out to 2050 - the won't all be built next week
But with PV and wind ramping up as old nuclear power and existing gas stations being closed, new nuclear is replacing them at too low a rate / capacity, meaning there will be a significant amount of a gap in the backup when the sun isn't shining and wind isn't blowing.
- the National Grid investment plan covers several years - I don't expect it to be complete by 2025, nor does it need to be
Unfortunately, the current government has moved up the decarbonising of the grid significantly without having sufficient backup. How is that circle squared?
- storage of surplus green energy is an issue now - but the average EV has the capacity to store ~50kwh representing ~5-7 days average household consumption
Only if home electricity usage for a typical 3-bed house is used for everything other than heating. No use if it is, even for heat pumps, which are:
a) not as efficient as their proponents say, and particularly in winter months (much lower COP, near 1 [as resistive heating] in very cold conditions);
b) no use unless the owner doesn't have need for the car otherwise and can guarantee it can be recharged later when the battery is depleted, and;
c) will only work on an individual basis if the owner's vehicle is relatively new / high spec and on a community basis (exporting back to the grid to help power people's homes who don't have an EV) if there's not enough of them and/or the owner has bothered / is willing to connect it to provide that service.
Of course, if they do, that (likely well-off) person will benefit significantly at the expense of the less well off.
- there are 33m vehicles registered on UK roads of which ~1m are EV today. The other 32m will take another 25 years to appear - not an immediate problem!
Ramping up ownership too quickly will likely have a significant detrimental impact on electricity supplies, prices of batteries and, as already described across many posts, lots of other significant negative effects when a market is artificiality changed by central diktat.
The completely foolish is to assert that we would be better off carrying on as we are when we know with a high level of confidence that:
- oil and gas supply is dependant on world stability and markets
- oil and gas as commodities will get increasingly scarce as reserves are consumed
I is, at best, disingenuous to say that those of us advocating a much more slower, organic pace for the transition are advocating for fossil fuels to continue to be used as a sole provision of power / fuel.
We are saying that the plans that governments are going for are at best ill thought out, and at worst both driven by warped ideology of control and the further transfer of resources / wealth to firms, people and organisations who already have way too much, and who use that to lobby (or worse) or control politicians, the media, 'experts', etc to make it happen, possibly irrevocably.
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"I only post reality. If you don't like it, explain where what I post is incorrect."
My point is that short periods of time when the UK has to use gas to generate electricity does not mean that there is in some way a failure to achieve net-zero. If the vast majority of our electricity comes from non-fossil sources we can cope with calm weather.
Solar as a source of power will also be affected by weather, but is able to provide some output even in cloud.
I note your tetchiness when challenged, by the way.
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"I only post reality. If you don't like it, explain where what I post is incorrect."
My point is that short periods of time when the UK has to use gas to generate electricity does not mean that there is in some way a failure to achieve net-zero. If the vast majority of our electricity comes from non-fossil sources we can cope with calm weather.
Solar as a source of power will also be affected by weather, but is able to provide some output even in cloud.
I note your tetchiness when challenged, by the way.
That still doesn't make the substance of what they posted incorrect. When the sun doesn't shine or wind doesn't blow - no green energy, and thus it needs 100% backup from either fossil fuels, which mainstream politicians, and particularly the latest lot in office, want to ditch as quickly a possible, or from nuclear, which the same not-so-wise lot have (and still are) delaying again and again and giving contracts to firms backed by foreign governments, including the CCP.
Despite all the hype, battery tech nor hydrogen will be a viable 'storage medium' for the scale of energy needed to 'decarbonise'. The 2030 or 2035 deadlines are not just pipe dreams, but a recipe for disaster - widespread and long-lasting power cuts, a lack of food supply, a huge drop in industrial and economic output, etc, etc.
And contrary to some posters' comments, such WILL leave us beholden to foreign providers of energy - especially hostile ones, precisely because our no-to-wise politicians are now deliberately running down our oil and gas fields and forcing through electric at vastly higher cost onto the country, with nothing to backup that supply that we control or probably will be available in time.
What they may not realise is that so much of life needs energy / power than just your home heating and electricity systems, including a great many that are essentials they couldn't live without if supplies were disrupted for more than a few days nationwide.
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Anecdotal to be sure but I too have two cars. Both EV and the longest legs are 201m wltp. I haven't needed anything else in three years of ownership. Last bought petrol in Sept 2021. It's quickly done as long as you can home-charge.
The only barrier for most will be to ignore the media FUD, do your research and take a chance. You'll not regret it.
It's a bit simplistic to hang this on the 'media'.
In our very average town (not far from Bristol), we have six garages, and none is catering for EVs at the moment; driving 20 miles to the nearest EV-compatible garage is a significant deterrent for many here, and it doesn't matter that EV's potentially needs less maintenance.
From observing our roads here for decades , it seems on it's face that the cars on these roads are getting older and older. There are some ev'a mostly white model 3 around but little else electric. Mist new cars visible are ICE SUV's.
Also, a lot of older drivers are afraid of new tech and change so you hardly ever see a flat cap behind the wheel of an EV.
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Anecdotal to be sure but I too have two cars. Both EV and the longest legs are 201m wltp. I haven't needed anything else in three years of ownership. Last bought petrol in Sept 2021. It's quickly done as long as you can home-charge.
The only barrier for most will be to ignore the media FUD, do your research and take a chance. You'll not regret it.
It's a bit simplistic to hang this on the 'media'.
In our very average town (not far from Bristol), we have six garages, and none is catering for EVs at the moment; driving 20 miles to the nearest EV-compatible garage is a significant deterrent for many here, and it doesn't matter that EV's potentially needs less maintenance.
From observing our roads here for decades , it seems on it's face that the cars on these roads are getting older and older. There are some ev'a mostly white model 3 around but little else electric. Mist new cars visible are ICE SUV's.
Also, a lot of older drivers are afraid of new tech and change so you hardly ever see a flat cap behind the wheel of an EV.
Not sure where you are, but Pearce Bros in Avonmouth look after EVs.
As for older people, my 79 year old dad drives around in a Kia Niro EV (and an Alpine A110). The majority of EV owners I know are retired and love the convenience of having a fully 'fuelled' car every morning that meets all of their needs for local journeys.
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Ball joints, track rod ends, bottom arms, springs, dampers, top mounts, anti-roll bar bushes, discs, pads, brake fluid, cabin filter, any number of bits and pieces that a garage handles daily are exactly the same in EV as piston engine.
Battery and drive train are typically 7/8 year warranty, so covered by the main dealer.
Short of getting involved with the high voltage stuff, there’s loads that a non-EV specialist garage can do. If they chose to and not see EV as a threat to their income. Equally, I’d be having at least one tech who is EV trained and planning for the future.
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Ball joints, track rod ends, bottom arms, springs, dampers, top mounts, anti-roll bar bushes, discs, pads, brake fluid, cabin filter, any number of bits and pieces that a garage handles daily are exactly the same in EV as piston engine. Battery and drive train are typically 7/8 year warranty, so covered by the main dealer. Short of getting involved with the high voltage stuff, there’s loads that a non-EV specialist garage can do. If they chose to and not see EV as a threat to their income. Equally, I’d be having at least one tech who is EV trained and planning for the future.
When I took my old Corsa-e for its 2 year service, they replaced the cabin filter and printed off a list of fault codes (all of which they cleared).
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