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There can be no "facts" about the future performance of these systems, pretty much by definition.
A fact is something known to be true, now. Thats why they call it a fact.
You could find out what the current cost of replacing one of these things is, which would be a fact, and when it needs to be done, but the latter is according to the manufacturer, so a fairly non-factual factoid, as facts go.
Likewise, any jive about them having overcome the inherently deeply dodgy nature of these designs can't be regarded as facts.
Might be true.
Might not.
Only time will tell.
If you seek facts, perhaps you don't feel very lucky.
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Vauxhalls have never featured highly in my list of vehicles to own, to consider buying one with a known inherent expensive issue makes little sense.
In a similar vein a mate knew my daughter had just passed her test and said his mechanic has a car for sale for only £1,000 which may suit her, A ten year old Fiesta Ecoboost with 90,000 miles. I asked him if the belts will be changed as they are due and he said that's why its only £1,000!
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Wet belts are a totally stupid idea. The idea is inherently deeply flawed. Anybody who says otherwise is talking nonsense. Avoid anything with a wet belt unless it won't be your problem, e.g. leased car. Those Stellantis 1.2 are a horror. Rest of the car is not much better.
Edited by Rerepo on 09/05/2024 at 17:09
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Wet belts are a totally stupid idea.
No they aren;t.
The idea is inherently deeply flawed.
No it isn't
Anybody who says otherwise is talking nonsense.
No they aren't. There are now millions of BIO engines running without problems all over the world, as long as they have modern belts immersed in the correct spec oil.
Can I go ahead and buy a 2020 model with reasonable confidence?!
Yes.
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Wet belts are a totally stupid idea.
No they aren;t.
The idea is inherently deeply flawed.
No it isn't
Anybody who says otherwise is talking nonsense.
No they aren't. There are now millions of BIO engines running without problems all over the world, as long as they have modern belts immersed in the correct spec oil.
Can I go ahead and buy a 2020 model with reasonable confidence?!
Yes.
You clearly have scant knowledge of wet belt technology. I'm a professional engineer in the motor industry and I've yet to meet an engineer who thinks wet belts are anything other than a lousy idea.
Dayco patented and introduced BIO back in 2007. They were supposed to be cheap and combine the advantages of both dry belts and chains. They were sold to manufacturers on the basis of 'lifetime fit' and 30% higher drive efficiency, which translates into 1% fuel and emissions advantage. Manufacturers look for small cumulative gains (thinner oils, EPAS, lighter body, plastic components).
Unfortunately there were almost immediate problems with wet belts, including fibre shedding, depolymerisation and delamination of the belts etc etc. The solution has been to dispense with the belt (Ford reverting to chain), withdraw the engine from market (Honda - following unsuccessful changes to pulley design), changes to belt chemistry and pulley design (Stellantis). I think its fair to say that these companies wish they'd never heard of wet belts. I recently looked at a torn-down Stellantis 1.2 that had covered 92k mi. with the revised belt and the belt was on its last legs. Not very confidence inspiring at all. Quite apart from the wet belt issues these Stellantis 1.2s (PureTech) are a woeful design and the component quality is very poor. There are far better products available from other manufacturers.
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You clearly have scant knowledge of wet belt technology. I'm a professional engineer in the motor industry
That should mean you have a Mech Eng degree. If not, your opinions will be much the same weight as mine.
Unfortunately there were almost immediate problems with wet belts, including fibre shedding, depolymerisation and delamination of the belts etc etc. The solution has been to dispense with the belt....
The solution was to use better spec oil and a better belt, e.g. Continental CT1228
I recently looked at a torn-down Stellantis 1.2 that had covered 92k mi. with the revised belt and the belt was on its last legs....
...with what history? What sort of oil? How often changed? What exactly was the 'revised belt'? Anecdotes like this are meaningless without detail. Motor forums used to be full of horror stories of perfectly good original belts being replaced by belts of possibly inferior quality and failing a few tens of thousands of miles later. Good quality modern belts designed for oil immersion aren't cheap.
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I'm starting to hear via trade contacts of independent mechanics / garages refusing to do service or wet belt replacements on Ecoboost & Puretech powered vehicles as they don't want to risk the liability.
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You clearly have scant knowledge of wet belt technology. I'm a professional engineer in the motor industry
That should mean you have a Mech Eng degree. If not, your opinions will be much the same weight as mine.
Unfortunately there were almost immediate problems with wet belts, including fibre shedding, depolymerisation and delamination of the belts etc etc. The solution has been to dispense with the belt....
The solution was to use better spec oil and a better belt, e.g. Continental CT1228
I recently looked at a torn-down Stellantis 1.2 that had covered 92k mi. with the revised belt and the belt was on its last legs....
...with what history? What sort of oil? How often changed? What exactly was the 'revised belt'? Anecdotes like this are meaningless without detail. Motor forums used to be full of horror stories of perfectly good original belts being replaced by belts of possibly inferior quality and failing a few tens of thousands of miles later. Good quality modern belts designed for oil immersion aren't cheap.
Bit of a "counsels of perfection" vibe about the above.
Even IF it were true that IF everything is done perfectly, it will be fine, (and it may well not be true) you have to factor in the significant possibility that everything will NOT be done perfectly.
This probably applies especially acutely here in Taiwan, whether you are a (unique) DIYer or get things done by the pros
For example, it is impossible to find proper brake greases here, so I'd say there is a very high probability that the pros just use (rubber incompatible) general purpose grease on brakes, though alarmingly I have also experienced this with my 4 ton truck in the UK.
I'd say a job requiring a special oil and a special belt is quite likely not to get it from the pros, and these may not be easy to locate as a DIYer either.
They also, as you say, wont be cheap. I suppose if the used market price of these cars is discounted to account for their disposable design, they might still make sense as a used purchase, otherwise there seems no reason to volunteer for these costs.
I have some Taiwanese friends with one of these engines (Ecobust in a Kuga, IIRC). I havnt bothered being "The voice of doom" since they would not understand, and treat cars as disposable anyway, so probably wont be especially affected.
Edited by edlithgow on 14/05/2024 at 05:11
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You clearly have scant knowledge of wet belt technology. I'm a professional engineer in the motor industry
That should mean you have a Mech Eng degree. If not, your opinions will be much the same weight as mine.
Unfortunately there were almost immediate problems with wet belts, including fibre shedding, depolymerisation and delamination of the belts etc etc. The solution has been to dispense with the belt....
The solution was to use better spec oil and a better belt, e.g. Continental CT1228
I recently looked at a torn-down Stellantis 1.2 that had covered 92k mi. with the revised belt and the belt was on its last legs....
...with what history? What sort of oil? How often changed? What exactly was the 'revised belt'? Anecdotes like this are meaningless without detail. Motor forums used to be full of horror stories of perfectly good original belts being replaced by belts of possibly inferior quality and failing a few tens of thousands of miles later. Good quality modern belts designed for oil immersion aren't cheap.
John F
I'm not going to bore everyone with every detail of my 35+ years in the motor industry - but in brief... Double First in Physics, MSc in Advanced Engineering. PhD in ICE combustion & emissions (sponsored by Ford). Worked for Ford, Rover, Aston Martin, JLR, BMW, plus a few others. SAIC-GM PATAC in Shanghai and GM ATC Shanghai (where I am now). 178+ technical publications and two books published by SAE. You did ask ;-)
The PureTech is recognised throughout the industry as a design that looks great on paper but the realisation had been a disaster. Its not just the cambelt. Its oil consumption (piston ring design and poor materials), injector problems etc etc. Almost every component of the engine is sub-par. There were supposed to be manufacturing changes made in late 2020/early 21. We'll see how they pan out.
The PureTech does drive well and its a nice engine when running properly. But with so many shortcomings why would you choose to buy one?
If you are unfortunate enough to own one of these engines the saving grace is that (unlike EcoBoost) the belt is fairly easy and cheap to replace - rather similar to a dry cambelt in fact. Removing the oil filler cap will enable you to see the belt condition. Tools are available to check belt condition with the belt in situ (belt swelling check) and lock the drive to change the belt (check out Ebay - £30-40). I would suggest a belt change every 50k miles. Change oil at twice the interval recommended by Stellantis (poor piston sealing on these engines means the oil becomes contaminated quickly and the contaminants attack the elastomer in the belt). Dayco are the originator of the BIO drive used by Stellantis (licenced to Gates and Continental). A Peugeot-supplied belt will be re-packaged Dayco. They have gone through at least three revisions in the last few years. Dayco-branded aftermarket belt kits are actually very reasonably priced.
Or you could just buy a Toyota and get on with life.....
Edited by Rerepo on 15/05/2024 at 07:26
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I wont purchase another Stellantis group product ever again after my experience of owner a Puretech powered Peugeot for 4 years.
Best thing I ever did was trade it in for a new Toyota.
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<< I would suggest a belt change every 50k miles. Change oil at twice the interval recommended by Stellantis (poor piston sealing on these engines means the oil becomes contaminated quickly and the contaminants attack the elastomer in the belt). >>
rerepo, I'm sure you mean half the interval, not double ? :-)
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I'm not going to bore everyone with every detail of my 35+ years in the motor industry - but in brief... Double First in Physics, MSc in Advanced Engineering. PhD in ICE combustion & emissions (sponsored by Ford). Worked for Ford, Rover, Aston Martin, JLR, BMW, plus a few others. SAIC-GM PATAC in Shanghai and GM ATC Shanghai (where I am now). 178+ technical publications and two books published by SAE. You did ask ;-)
Thanks - that is indeed impressive.
The PureTech is recognised throughout the industry as a design that looks great on paper but the realisation had been a disaster. Its not just the cambelt. Its oil consumption (piston ring design and poor materials), injector problems etc etc. Almost every component of the engine is sub-par. There were supposed to be manufacturing changes made in late 2020/early 21. We'll see how they pan out.
There are now millions of these award winning 1.2 puretech engines all over the globe in various Stellantis models (30 Jan 2019 — PSA says 3.8 million PureTech engines have been produced to date)- are they really that bad? I'm watching my own carefully run in engine's oil consumption which at a mere 25,000 miles is so far very low. It was changed at the one-year-old 'first service' (allegedly) at 5500 miles and again by me at 10k and 20k miles, using correct spec oil and filters.
The PureTech does drive well and its a nice engine when running properly. But with so many shortcomings why would you choose to buy one?
Because I thought the 130hp was a well designed modern engine (with its reputation ruined by poor materials) coupled with an excellent gearbox (EAT6) resulting in an enjoyable sporty powertrain in a fun to drive good VFM small SUV. (Fortunately Mrs F liked the car).
.... Removing the oil filler cap will enable you to see the belt condition. Tools are available to check belt condition....
Indeed so. I made one out of a sc*** piece of copper sheeting I had lying around.
Dayco are the originator of the BIO drive used by Stellantis (licenced to Gates and Continental).
Indeed so. It's a shame they didn't make their belts fit for purpose for their BIO drive. Their incompetence must have cost Stellantis a fortune in recalls and repairs.
Peugeot-supplied belt will be re-packaged Dayco. They have gone through at least three revisions in the last few years. Dayco-branded aftermarket belt kits are actually very reasonably priced.
Maybe - but with their reputation I wouldn't touch a Dayco belt with a bargepole. I'd rather pay more money for a better quality belt if and when the one we have (whatever its make) looks as though it's deteriorating.
The problems with wet belts and timing chains is that a lot of people stretch servicing intervals and the acid in the oils eat into them so if you are buying a second hand car make sure it has had the servicing and oil changes at the correct mileage. I was a foreman in a large Nissan dealer before I retired and saw Timing chain problems on vehicles that had missed services but ones that had services at the right time where fine, if the car has 2 year servicing get the engine oil changed at a year
Excellent advice. I suspect many puretech failures were because as well as the early poor belt quality, the engines got cheap non-spec oil from untrustworthy garages which didn't get changed often enough. Possibly some didn't get their bunged up oil filters changed either resulting in the pick-up strainer getting blocked with resulting poor oil circulation.
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Hello, I am reaching out on the off chance you may be able to help.
I had the first service of my car carried out by Vauxhall 5 months late and 2.5k miles over there recommendation of 1 year or 12,500 miles.
The car is now in the garage and they are opening the engine to tell the extent of the damage to the wet belt but are refusing to cover me under my 3 year new car warranty because the delay in service has caused the issue with the wet belt.
Can they legitimately argue this? If I had the service on time would my wet belt not have disintegrated?
It’s a Grandland X Turbo 1.2, registered in Jan 2022, 34,000 miles
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"Can they legitimately argue this?"
Have you read your warranty T&C's? Why shouldn't they refuse? There's another thread on here about Stellantis extending the warranty on this engine to 10 years but one condition is servicing mustn't be over 3 months/3,000km overdue. You fail on both counts. Unless there's a very good reason, such as perhaps the car not having been used due to poor health where an appeal may reach their soft underbelly, I think you may have learnt an expensive lesson.
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..... I had the first service of my car carried out by Vauxhall 5 months late and 2.5k miles over there recommendation of 1 year or 12,500 miles. ...
For a start, i think this would undoubtedly invalidate the warranty.
The car is now in the garage and they are opening the engine to tell the extent of the damage to the wet belt .....
What exactly is the problem? You do not need to 'open the engine' to assess the cambelt - it can be inspected and measured with a simple tool via the oil filler cap.
Assuming the car had a 'first service' oil and filter change in June '23 at 15,000miles and reverted back to the annual service date in Jan '24 at around 22,000 with another oil and filter change (you seem to be doing about 1000 miles a month), that's two oil changes so far since new.
......but are refusing to cover me under my 3 year new car warranty because the delay in service has caused the issue with the wet belt. Can they legitimately argue this?
'fraid so.
If I had the service on time would my wet belt not have disintegrated? It’s a Grandland X Turbo 1.2, registered in Jan 2022, 34,000 miles
I would not expect a 2022 1.2 puretech car to suffer significant belt or engine damage at such a low mileage even with this history of neglect ........unless the wrong oil has been used (check the service record for the correct spec oil - they should have precisely recorded this - a jug of bog standard 0-30 from the cheapo garage barrel is not good enough for this engine) or it has been run too low on oil......or if the engine was actually made well before 2022 and equipped with one of DAYCO's early crumbly cambelts.
If the belt looks crumbly, the advice is to remove the sump and check the oil pick-up is not clogged up with debris - not a big job.
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<< I'm a professional engineer in the motor industry and I've yet to meet an engineer who thinks wet belts are anything other than a lousy idea. >>
I am (was) a chemist and I wouldn't think it was a clever idea to hope that a rubber belt (however modern) would perform satisfactorily while immersed in hot oil - however much that oil and rubber had been optimised for the job - at least when compared with the same belt in dry conditions.
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Absolute c***..70 model grand land and the belt has failed !
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