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Our next election is in a few weeks time because our MP was one of those Tories who resigned, forcing a by-election. I will be voting for the party that is most likely to defeat the Tories, which in our case is the LIb Dems..
Edited by Sofa Spud on 01/07/2023 at 12:06
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Our taxes are far too high, energy costs are crippling (and the government are doing nothing) for business and individual alike..
Most of what you say is true. Unfortunately those taxes are needed to keep big things like the NHS running, which a large part of the population cannot imagine living without. If you have a suggestion how to fund that with low taxation, let's hear it.
It looks as though someone may have to work out how to deprivatise the water companies too, which could cost a bit, especially with much of them foreign-owned.
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“ Most of what you say is true. Unfortunately those taxes are needed to keep big things like the NHS running, which a large part of the population cannot imagine living without. If you have a suggestion how to fund that with low taxation, let's hear it.”
I have no beef with funding the NHS through taxation, though I believe a small fee for prescriptions (in Scotland) would cut unnecessary waste. It’s the huge amount of waste within the public sector I’d like to see cut. Lower taxes don’t necessarily mean lower government revenues either, tax cuts if done correctly will increase economic activity and employment and thus increase tax returns. It’s not as simplistic as higher taxes mean more money for government spending, often higher taxes can cut it.
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SLO76 Ditto for me in Wales. Nearly everything wrong here from the NHS and dentistry which is worse than in England to no more road building and the same old excuses. Devolution ie a self governing country you would think an Ideal opportunity to put right a lot of what might be wrong in the UK. But no point at all, all we have is very left wing lot and another talking shop to govern a population of only 3 million. A lot of local councils in England manage a higher population in often better ways. Don't get me started again on the 20mph. This policy is a sure fire way to put off investment to Wales. But still you can only do about 20 on the countries only motorway as it is jam packed all the time. The Wales Gov bought its own Airport in the south which is another money pit besides all the mistakes giving money away like water to any foolish project that takes its fancy. The last one that springs to mind is some £10million wasted on a race circuit about 1000feet above sea level which never came to out. An now Wales is talking about its own Income Tax, how this is going to work beats me. Then we have the millions spent supporting the language. Sad to say but no other party seems to stand a chance as large blocks of the countries main population areas vote the same as their great great grandparents! Leaders with big egos and little interest in the populations overall benefit.
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I respectfully disagree with almost everything you've written, SLO76 apart from the point of politicians of all persuasions genrally being in it for themselves and being populist in their nature.
Saor Alba.
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I respectfully disagree with almost everything you've written, SLO76 apart from the point of politicians of all persuasions genrally being in it for themselves and being populist in their nature.
Saor Alba.
Two of my closest friends are raging Scottish nationalists, and I love them to bits. Opposites attract an all that. But what’s wrong with yer alba?
Edited by SLO76 on 01/07/2023 at 19:12
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I could explain in great detail what's wrong with the UK and why I believe Scotland can and should have its own government (not assembly, which it has). Devolution was always a means to show why independence doesn't work. Devolution isn't independence.
I'll write no more as you will have read or heard some of what I could write but I suspect that you like me won't be convinced of the other side. That's okay.
Scotland and its people deserve better.
I think people will have an idea of how I will vote at the next general election. ;-)
It will be like f@rting against thunder.
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Scotland and its people deserve better.
Without wishing to offend, I might ask two questions :
[1] Why ?
[2] Who do you imagine will provide it ?
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1. This could take a while. As I said, you can find it all online if you want.
2. The people of Scotland and its government.
Edited by groaver on 01/07/2023 at 20:56
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“ Scotland and its people deserve better.”
You’re absolutely right, the SNP administration are an utter embarrassment to Scotland.
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“ Scotland and its people deserve better.” You’re absolutely right, the SNP administration are an utter embarrassment to Scotland.
Is Nicola renting the motorhome so others can make use of it or is it still sitting on her mother's driveway? Only another £500k or so to find.
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“ Scotland and its people deserve better.”
You’re absolutely right, the SNP administration are an utter embarrassment to Scotland.
Completely agree with that statement.
I felt the SNP started off well in the Scottish Government, with many popular policies.
I voted for the SNP in successive Local, Scottish Parliament & UK elections. They seemed a better bet than the Lib Dems or Scottish Labour.
However since they lost the Independence vote, they have completely lost the plot. They’ve had many doomed policies (A9 Dualling, Ferries, DRS to name a few) which have cost taxpayers and businesses.
Apart from another referendum their only other interest is trying to legislate in areas, which they don’t have powers to do so (as they are devolved to the UK Government). They then spend more of our money challenging the UK government in court.
Their recent pact, with the Greens, haven’t done them any favours either.
Speaking as a Scot, living in Scotland, I’m sick to the back teeth of hearing of another Independence referendum. We’ve had this continually since the 2014 one.
Probably won’t vote for the Lib Dems in the near future, still haven’t forgiven them for propping up Cameron’s Government. When I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past, I never did it so they could vote in favour of Tory policies. They completely chucked their policies (and integrity) out the window at that point.
In common with most scots, would never vote Tory. Johnson is a complete embarrassment.
So that just leaves Labour! At the moment, they seem the best bunch (not that any of the bunch looks particularly good).
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<< Probably won’t vote for the Lib Dems in the near future, still haven’t forgiven them for propping up Cameron’s Government. When I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past, I never did it so they could vote in favour of Tory policies. They completely chucked their policies (and integrity) out the window at that point. >>
All understandable sentiments, but they end up sounding like throwing toys out of pram. You voted for a party that didn't come first past the post, but which decided that coalescing with the party that did was the least of available evils.
You must do what football fans do - support your preferred team through thick and thin. Most Americans do that, and look where it gets them. The basic problem with politicians is that they have to switch from promising the unlikely (while canvassing) to trying to avoid losing the next election (if they actually win one).
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<< Probably won’t vote for the Lib Dems in the near future, still haven’t forgiven them for propping up Cameron’s Government. When I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past, I never did it so they could vote in favour of Tory policies. They completely chucked their policies (and integrity) out the window at that point. >>
All understandable sentiments, but they end up sounding like throwing toys out of pram. You voted for a party that didn't come first past the post, but which decided that coalescing with the party that did was the least of available evils.
You must do what football fans do - support your preferred team through thick and thin. Most Americans do that, and look where it gets them. The basic problem with politicians is that they have to switch from promising the unlikely (while canvassing) to trying to avoid losing the next election (if they actually win one).
Politicians don't have to do that, they choose to because they're self-serving weasels. What they would ideally do is canvass based on their principles, then actually stick to them. If that's not what people vote for, then democracy has occurred.
As for the Lib Dems, they didn't coalesce with the party that was first past the post, but the one that was nearest the post. Having triggered the dismantling of a functional public sectors and, ultimately, the decision to cut ties with our closest trading partners, I would say that was the worst of the available evils.
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<< Probably won’t vote for the Lib Dems in the near future, still haven’t forgiven them for propping up Cameron’s Government. When I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past, I never did it so they could vote in favour of Tory policies. They completely chucked their policies (and integrity) out the window at that point. >>
All understandable sentiments, but they end up sounding like throwing toys out of pram. You voted for a party that didn't come first past the post, but which decided that coalescing with the party that did was the least of available evils.
Knew there was no chance of them coming 1st, but naively thought they had some integrity! But, they effectively became Tories for the remainder of the Parliament by voting through Tory policies! People who voted Lib Dem didn't see this as "the least of available evils".
You must do what football fans do - support your preferred team through thick and thin. Most Americans do that, and look where it gets them.
It got them Trump then Biden! Their system doesn't work either.
The basic problem with politicians is that they have to switch from promising the unlikely (while canvassing) to trying to avoid losing the next election (if they actually win one).
Many, including myself, would call that Lying
Andrew-T, You seem to have criticised what many have written on this thread. However, I can't see that you've answered the initial question.
"Care to share how you might vote in the next election?"
Edited by FiestaOwner on 02/07/2023 at 10:34
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<< Andrew-T, You seem to have criticised what many have written on this thread. However, I can't see that you've answered the initial question.
"Care to share how you might vote in the next election?" >>
At this point, F-O, I haven't even thought about it !!
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Probably won’t vote for the Lib Dems in the near future, still haven’t forgiven them for propping up Cameron’s Government. When I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past, I never did it so they could vote in favour of Tory policies. They completely chucked their policies (and integrity) out the window at that point.
I think there was more to it than that, they we in power to a degree with arguably the worse leader they'd seen, which is saying something.
The Tories forced them to give up tuition fees knowing full well most people would be disgusted and never vote LibDem again, their leader was foolish (or ambitious) enough to go along, it was a clever move by the Tories and the rest is history.
Far as tuition fees go, they had to go because far too many young people go on to further education when its not the best route for many of them, witness how those who left school and showing some nous and work ethic got themselves apprenticeships and learned useful trades are in high paying jobs with many now self employed in their own businesses, trades where they won't be on the scrap heap at 50 even if they are stale male white heteros.
Edited by gordonbennet on 03/07/2023 at 08:59
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I respectfully disagree with almost everything you've written, SLO76 apart from the point of politicians of all persuasions genrally being in it for themselves and being populist in their nature.
Saor Alba.
I love Scotland and might live their in future if my circs allowed. I too respectfully disagree wholly with SLO.
To my mind devolved government seems to work OK. My political compass is wholly Socialist, in England I've always wanted a Labour Government and vote accordingly. Given where I've lived down the years that usually means voting tactically to get an incumbent Tory out. On most things around the economy. health etc, at least historically, I'd struggle get a fag paper between Labour and the SNP. The so called coalition of chaos of a Labour/SNP UK government seems to me to me to be a dream government as an alternative to a Tory led one.
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I find through discussing this issue over the years that many Scots simply don’t understand what they’d be giving up. I have a good friend who requires NHS treatment which is unavailable up here and he is under the care of a team south of the border, another young girl in my sons class at school is in a similar situation and we met them earlier today while they were waiting on their train to London for her care. Independence would lock Scots out of the much larger UK NHS. I don’t want this for myself or my child.
We would also be licked out of the wider UK jobs market. Today I can jump on a bus, or train and head south to take up a job offer if I so fancy, I have access to a national economy based on a population of around 65 million people, post independence I or my child would need to emigrate to the UK if I wanted to access the greater opportunities it holds over a tiny nation with the population which is less than many major cities. I don’t want this for my child.
We’d also be locked out of the much larger UK further education system. My son would need to apply as a foreign student and fully fund his education if he wanted to go to university in the UK. I don’t want his options limited like this.
We’d also lose the stability (though much damaged thanks to Brexit and Covid policy) of the pound. Imagine the crippling cost to a newly started currency of the global credit crisis of 2008 or Covid. Smaller nations suffer far greater economic fallout during global crises than larger ones such as the UK.
We’d lose any capacity to defend ourselves. A nation with a population less than most major cities simply cannot fund viable defence forces. We’d have a token gesture at best and be 100% reliant on our neighbours for defence and for procurement. No Royal Navy ship building would be done in an independent Scotland either thus losing thousands of highly skilled and well paid jobs.
I could go on, there are loads of negatives to independence that most supporters simply haven’t thought through. They’re often blinkered by flag waving national pride over rational thought. There’s a huge economic cost to independence and to what gain? As an independent nation we’d need to slash public sector spending and increase taxes to offset the loss of the current fiscal transfer which sees Scots gain much higher state spending per head than the English receive. This is not sustainable using the Scottish executives own GERS figures. They’ve dishonestly sold Scots a lie that they would somehow be better off financially, we wouldn’t.
The SNP say they’d seek reentry to the EU but even assuming that this wouldn’t be blocked by Spain (thanks to their own constitutional issues) we’d then be leaving one union where we have strong social and economic links with and in which we have a disproportionate voice to join another where we would have absolutely no power over our own fate. One with no common language and substantial cultural differences. It would not be independence in any way shape or form, we’d be economically worse off and our children would be locked out of the UK jobs and education opportunities. I don’t understand why anyone supports it, but I’m glad we live in a nation where it can be discussed without the guns being brought out. Sadly though it has caused much anger and hate between fellow Scots. I long for it to all end, and as a family we’ve already agreed that we will be leaving if it comes to pass, I’m not prepared to limit my sons future for the sake of a flag.
Edited by SLO76 on 02/07/2023 at 15:00
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Not particularly aiming at you, SLO, not least because I don't know about your views, but it does surprise me how many people both sides of the border think that Brexit was a good idea but oppose Scottish independence for exactly the reasons you outline.
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Not particularly aiming at you, SLO, not least because I don't know about your views, but it does surprise me how many people both sides of the border think that Brexit was a good idea but oppose Scottish independence for exactly the reasons you outline.
This was most entertaining, and confusing during the buildup to the Brexit referendum. The people who were arguing for independence in 2014 were now angrily proclaiming that it was better to be part of a stronger union, the very arguments they shouted down in 2014 were suddenly all very sensible to them and vice versa many of those who supported the union in 2014 were arguing tooth and nail for independence and how it was vital to spit away from our most important market and closest neighbours. I was a tad more stable, I wanted to stay within the UK and the EU. Meanwhile all this never-ending instability is driving businesses and jobs overseas to more predictable business environments.
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"As an independent nation we’d need to slash public sector spending and increase taxes to offset the loss of the current fiscal transfer which sees Scots gain much higher state spending per head than the English receive. This is not sustainable using the Scottish executives own GERS figures. They’ve dishonestly sold Scots a lie that they would somehow be better off financially, we wouldn’t."
Often quoted that we couldn't afford to be independent.
I wonder why the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay part of it when it clearly costs it to do so?
Ah! It's that old partners schtick. More that binds us than divides us.
Of all the former colonies, how many wish they had remained?
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I wonder why the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay part of it when it clearly costs it to do so?
As an English person living in England, I oppose Scottish and Welsh independence because without them we'd have a Tory government every election and be the world's poorest and most rubber dinghy obsessed country.
I'd be happy to hand Northern Ireland back.
Edited by Adampr on 02/07/2023 at 17:10
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“ Often quoted that we couldn't afford to be independent.”
Only by nationalists trying to poo poo rational debate. No one of sound mind has said that Scotland couldn’t afford to be an independent nation, the reality of it is that it would be much poorer, less able to withstand global crises and economic shocks plus our children would have fewer options than they do today.
“ I wonder why the rest of the UK want Scotland to stay part of it when it clearly costs it to do so?”
I think the rest of the UK are so fed up with this subject and the preferential treatment we receive from those who distribute tax payers hard earned money that many of them would be only too happy to see us away. Thankfully the choice to leave or stay was ours to make back in 2014 and that should’ve been an end to the matter for at least 50yrs to give us the stability we need.
“ Of all the former colonies, how many wish they had remained?”
Well, we aren’t a distant colony, we were a founding partner in the union which brought huge economic benefits to Scotland. But to directly answer your question, no one really knows as no government of any former colony has ever asked their population - understandable really. There was a private vote carried out by a newspaper in Barbados once which showed a majority in favour of returning to British rule as it was far less corrupt and offered greater rule of law. You can also take for granted that the 7.4 million people of Hong Kong would almost certainly vote by overwhelming majority to return to British rule but I can’t see the communist party of China agreeing to that vote.
Edited by SLO76 on 02/07/2023 at 16:20
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Thankfully the choice to leave or stay was ours to make back in 2014 and that should’ve been an end to the matter for at least 50yrs to give us the stability we need..
Agreed. But I have always thought that if Scottish independence was under discussion, any referendum should be open to Scots resident in the UK, and non-Scots too for that matter, as everyone would be affected to some extent.
Also if the result was to Leave, it should be without any financial pay-off. Full independence starts straight away.
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Thankfully the choice to leave or stay was ours to make back in 2014 and that should’ve been an end to the matter for at least 50yrs to give us the stability we need..
It would have been were it not for the dishonest conduct of the UK government.
One can do many things in our system that wouldn't pass examination in a system with a proper constitution and oversight.
A proper system should ridicule the same party saying in 2014 'if you want to be in the EU you have to stay in the UK' then less than two years later 'if UK, or rather the rest of it, votes to leave the EU you're out too'. If not prevented then at least they'd be properly called out for it.
Instead they got clean away.
And that's the generational change that means once in a generation loses it's bite in a fraction of one measured in normal units.
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My concern before Brexit was the UK would lose influence through its membership of the EU and become a medium size, isolated underperforming economy in the NE Atlantic.
This seems to be the outcome - I can identify nothing of significance that has demonstrably improved since exit, nor is there any expectation of benefits to come.
An independent Scotland would be a pimple on top of the unremarkable in the NE Atlantic. The only land border would be with the UK - by comparison the Irish problem is trivial.
Arrangements for dealing with pensions, taxation, import/export arrangements, transport links, border control, residence rights, defence, sharing national debt, etc etc would be an endless and probably confrontational.
Looking back a decade I would have been against dismantling the UK. My view has changed somewhat - I think it would be an very foolish and destructive act for Scotland but they should have a democratic right to choose.
Living in the south of the UK with no desire to move north of the border (bar an occasional holiday) I would support a tough negotiating stance. The UK was ~17% of the EU, Scotland is ~7% of the UK. I would not want the tail wagging the dog!!
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My concern before Brexit was that the UK would lose influence through its membership of the EU and become a medium size, isolated underperforming economy in the NE Atlantic.
Exactly right. I was arguing with a Brexiteer acquaintance the other day, whose attitude remains unchanged. It was clear to me that he voted for a principle he believed in, not for its rather predictable consequences. Hell and handcarts came to mind.
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My concern before Brexit was that the UK would lose influence through its membership of the EU and become a medium size, isolated underperforming economy in the NE Atlantic.
Exactly right. I was arguing with a Brexiteer acquaintance the other day, whose attitude remains unchanged. It was clear to me that he voted for a principle he believed in, not for its rather predictable consequences. Hell and handcarts came to mind.
What so called predictable consequences. A fair majority voted to leave and listened to all the arguments.. WE are quids in not paying in to the club and its dictatorial ways. Although we are still strongly influenced by what goes on in the EU any mistakes we make are down to us. The only gripe I have is that the whole thing is taking too long to unravel and there is probably a lot of truth in the so called blob resisting the change. The immigration situation is a joke, I reckon there is an under the table agreement going on with the EU With modern tech you would think it would be impossible to launch boats from a very limited coastline of France to an equally limited coast in England. How many of these illegal people could we possible send to Africa in any case and the misery that will cause
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My concern before Brexit was that the UK would lose influence through its membership of the EU and become a medium size, isolated underperforming economy in the NE Atlantic.
Exactly right. I was arguing with a Brexiteer acquaintance the other day, whose attitude remains unchanged. It was clear to me that he voted for a principle he believed in, not for its rather predictable consequences. Hell and handcarts came to mind.
What so called predictable consequences. A fair majority voted to leave and listened to all the arguments.. WE are quids in not paying in to the club and its dictatorial ways. Although we are still strongly influenced by what goes on in the EU any mistakes we make are down to us. The only gripe I have is that the whole thing is taking too long to unravel and there is probably a lot of truth in the so called blob resisting the change. The immigration situation is a joke, I reckon there is an under the table agreement going on with the EU With modern tech you would think it would be impossible to launch boats from a very limited coastline of France to an equally limited coast in England. How many of these illegal people could we possible send to Africa in any case and the misery that will cause
I presume the predictable consequences are the various economic hardships that were made clear by the remain side prior to the vote. I don't think anyone can deny they've occurred. The debate is whether they were worth it or not. I suppose time will tell.
As for immigrants, the basic fact is that they are economically vital. The government can't say that, so will continue to pander to the anti-immigration lobby with ever more absurd ideas on how to 'stop the boats'. None of these will ever work, nor are they designed to, but they keep people quiet for a while. If you want to 'stop the boats', you simplify legal immigration.
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<< What so called predictable consequences. A fair majority voted to leave and listened to all the arguments. >>
The deliberately self-inflicted problems associated with continuing to deal with our most important trading partners, not to mention the obviously impossible situation of Northern Ireland. No doubt some were convinced by the artificial and baseless promise of saving £350m a week in payments to the EU
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The immigration situation is a joke, I reckon there is an under the table agreement going on with the EU With modern tech you would think it would be impossible to launch boats from a very limited coastline of France to an equally limited coast in England. How many of these illegal people could we possible send to Africa in any case and the misery that will cause
The small boats have nothing to do with current net migration except in so far as, when claims are looked at, they're seen to be well founded and people get leave to remain as refugees.
If modern tech could stop folks leaving one coast and heading for another in dinghys or larger boats folks wouldn't get over the Med would they??
The fact is we need extra people to do stuff like pick fruit/veg and look after old folks and others who can't manage.
Listening to the spokespeople for the so called New Conservatives on the radio this morning had me varying between shouting out their stupidity and ROFLMAO.
Does Miriam Cates understand that Care Work is, for the most part, funded by Government. If we pay enough for the indigenes to do it there won't be tax cuts any time soon but rises.
How do people like that get past application forms never mind selection for a winnable seat?
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<< The fact is we need extra people to do stuff like pick fruit/veg and look after old folks and others who can't manage. >>
Picking fruit etc is pretty seasonal work, so unless these immigrants are part-time they will need support or other employment in between. I also wonder why we expect people from other countries to look after our old folk instead of doing it in-house, as it were. Basically because many Brits won't work for the poor wages these jobs pay, so why should the immigrants ?
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Being forced to take part in a medical experiment saw many care workers leave the industry altogether, both voluntarily and sacked.
The only reason British natives arn't picking veg etc is because doing nothing often pays more than work.
I'm surprised that people on the left would support the deliberate and cynical use of foreign workers to aid in the lowering of wages for some (Tories love unlimited immigration hence the constantly rising numbers), similarly never understood why some unions are so keen on unlimited immigration which absolutely keeps the wages of working class people low, talk about peeing in the wind.
So many of these things are intertwined.
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