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Sporty small car recommendations… - japdriver
My good lady has a 71 plate VW Up GTI, which is economical, fun, and nippy, but…it’s time to move it on. Why? Three punctures in 4 months have ruined her trust in it. Ridiculous 40 profile ‘rubber band’ tyres make every pothole a potential rac call out, and the tyres are not commonly stocked - 195/40/17 so it’s out of action for 24 hours waiting for a tyre to be sourced. No spare just useless goo that won’t fix a 3” gash. Can’t get a space saver as they don’t fit over the brake discs.
So she has a tricky ‘want’ list
Must be a 5 door. Must do 0-60 in less than 9 seconds. Must NOT have low profile tyres. We live in the New Forest and the roads are poor. Must be a manual. Must be no bigger than a polo size.
A fiesta ST appeals but stupid tyres make it a no. I can only come up with an Audi A1 1.4/1.5 technik as an idea? Budget up to £20k.
Any ideas please?
Sporty small car recommendations… - Adampr

How low is low profile? Wouldn't it be cheaper to put some sensible wheels on the Up?

I had a similar issue a few months ago looking for a small and lively car. I ended up with a Renault Twingo. The GT version might meet your needs.

If you're willing to go bigger, and own shares in an oil company, a Subaru Forester would be my ideal.

If the A1 works, presumably there is an equivalent Polo, Ibiza and Fabia?

Sporty small car recommendations… - JonestHon

i20 N ?

Might have to stretch the budget by £5k.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Engineer Andy

i20 N ?

Might have to stretch the budget by £5k.

Like the i30N, I'd put good money on this being shod on very low profile tyes and would likely have bigger uprated brakes that would likely preclude more sensible one - at best you'd be able to go to about the same tyre size as the OP's current car tyres, which obviously would be no use to them.

The ride for such cars tends to be hard to say the least,a dn the i20 apparently isn't in the same league as its bigger brother generally.

Sporty small car recommendations… - badbusdriver

Thing is, any small "sporty" car with the performance you want is going to have very low profile tyres.

The only way around it is to look for small with a reasonably powerful engine but in a lower spec. I was recently looking at a variety of new cars myself and can tell you that the current Skoda Fabia in SE Comfort trim is available with (more or less) the same engine as the Up GTI (110 rather than 115bhp). As it is a bigger and heavier car, it isn't as quick, but probably quick enough. If memory serves, it sits on 185/65 x 15 tyres, and a quick glance at Skoda's website shows a RRP of £19.5k.

Sporty small car recommendations… - skidpan

As it is a bigger and heavier car, it isn't as quick, but probably quick enough.

We have had a 110PS Fabia now for 5 years, great car, plenty quick enough. Only fault is the 45 profile tyres which do nothing for the ride but since many cars have such tyres it was not a deciding factor when we bought it.

But as BBD says the current Fabia comes with more sensible sized tyres.

We got ours from Carfile, they currently list the SE Comfort 110 for £18254 less £750 deposit contribution (simply take out finance, pay off within a couple of weeks, keep contribution).

Sporty small car recommendations… - Adampr

I should add, a Twingo would be a terrible idea on reflection as the front and back wheels are different sizes and there's not even room for a tin of goo in the boot (it's under the carpet in the passenger footwell).

A brief look around suggests that people have successfully put 16 and even 15 inch wheels on Up GTIs so that would be the best value option.

I would add, as I've just been on an hour's commute and been thinking about it, that we do need.to be cautious about quoting profiles as if they're absolute sizes. They're not, they're proportions, so (hypothetically at least), a 250/40 would have the same sidewall height as a 200/50.

Sporty small car recommendations… - japdriver

Fabia is a good shout - thank you. I’ve shown her autotrader pics to her and she likes the looks, so a test drive is the next step. Fairly light car so it should feel nippy with 110 bhp.
It’s a shame they have only just started doing the 1.5 engine - but auto only at £26k ??

Sporty small car recommendations… - japdriver

Sadly the up gti has bigger brakes than the other models so you can’t put a low spec models wheels on it as they won’t fit over the callipers. All aftermarket alloys just offer more ludicrously low profile tyre options. I have no idea what the obsession in this country is with low,profile tyres - they ride terribly and crash and bang over every hole in the road.
I suppose it’s a ‘fashion’ aesthetic and to me it’s crazy. A friend has an s line Audi A3 and it is absolutely horrendous to be a passenger in.
I drive a 2020 Suzuki vitara on sensible 60 profile tyres and just laugh at potholes and delaminated road surfaces - which is why the other half doesn’t want an ‘offroady’ style car - we already have one!

Sporty small car recommendations… - Engineer Andy
My good lady has a 71 plate VW Up GTI, which is economical, fun, and nippy, but…it’s time to move it on. Why? Three punctures in 4 months have ruined her trust in it. Ridiculous 40 profile ‘rubber band’ tyres make every pothole a potential rac call out, and the tyres are not commonly stocked - 195/40/17 so it’s out of action for 24 hours waiting for a tyre to be sourced. No spare just useless goo that won’t fix a 3” gash. Can’t get a space saver as they don’t fit over the brake discs. So she has a tricky ‘want’ list Must be a 5 door. Must do 0-60 in less than 9 seconds. Must NOT have low profile tyres. We live in the New Forest and the roads are poor. Must be a manual. Must be no bigger than a polo size. A fiesta ST appeals but stupid tyres make it a no. I can only come up with an Audi A1 1.4/1.5 technik as an idea? Budget up to £20k. Any ideas please?

As others have said, the problem is that every car in the performance category you've mentioned will have low profile tyres fitted as standard.

With luck, you may be able to source a car (or do this to your Up if pyhsically possible / allowed by your insurer [check]) and change the fitted alloys / tyres for smaller internal diameter and higher profile, but normally this also means (at least to get 'reasonably' common tyres) having skinny-er ones as well.

For example, I changed my Mazda3's OEM 16in alloys and 205/55 R16 tyres for 195/65 R15s, which are a proper like-for-like change. The smaller wheels do fit over the brakes and the slightly narrower wheels and tyres are also compatible width-ways (the handbook says they are, as does the door plate).

I'd first suggest you check your handbook and driver's side door plate to see if a higher profile tyre and smaller diameter wheel combo can be fitted (which should be allowable by the insurer, likely at no extra cost), but often 'GTi' type cars have bigger brakes and thus may not accept smaller alloys. Or at least going one size down in your case may not make much of a difference.

You may need to consult your local main dealer if the handbook / door plate aren't much use / have no info. You would need to do the same for any other supermini 'warm hatch'

Worth consulting the oponeo tyre size (re)calculator to check to see what's at least 'legal' (+1.5% / -2% tyre outer diameter difference to the OEM fitted) first - useful to see what options you may have:

www.oponeo.co.uk/tools/tyre-size-calculator

Then check some tyre dealers - Blackcircles is useful to at least gauge differences in price and availability (numbers of tyres to choose from and how new a design they are [normally those are nearer the top rated wet grip and mpg]) when 'downsizing'. It's also quite easy to use and change tyre sizes, but I'm sure other tyre dealers offer similar online info. More for comparsion than anything else.

One problem is that more often these days, cars now are far more likely to have different tyre size combos than (say) 10-20 years ago - which means there's less (new) and decent tyres to choose from, sometimes they are quite old (5+ years) designs (and thus not so good on performance criteria / mpg / safety), more difficult to get hold of and expensive, relative to the more common sizes that tend to be fitted to cars from the early 2000s - early 2010s.

In my view, you need to find a car that inherrantly has excellent handling characteristics - i.e. a well-designed 'chassis' and suspension setup, and gets excwellent reviews on this front even for the lowest specced trim / engine combo models.

I would say that getting anything with a sub-9 second 0-60 time for that size of car and that can have 'medium profile' (50-55, maybe 60) tyres fitted as an option is a VERY tall order, maybe impossible. The other thing that often doesn't help is that such cars often come with a firm suspension setup (often very much so) and a short wheelbase car will also tend to 'bounce' over poor surfaces / speed humps.

Might I suggest you moderate your expectations and look at (still nippy) cars but around the 9.5 sec 0-60 time, which opens you up to a good few 'mid-spec' superminis shod on reasonable tyres such as 195/60 R15 or 195/55 R16 or similar.

My 80yo dad is ironically coming from the other direction, having gone from a 08 plate Fiesta 1.25L (75hp / 0-60 in 13.3 sec) to a 20 plate Fiesta 1T MHEV Titanium X (125hp / 0-60 in about 9.4 sec), and he doesn't like it as it's 'too new tech' and 'too quick' (he can't get used to the differences).

His car is shod on OEMs of 205/45 R17 (sidewall 92.25mm high, your Up's are just 78mm high), but can accept a 195/55 R16 tyre (sidewall 107.25mm high), which is a reasonable height sidewall.

That (for example) might suit you without too much performance penalty, and the no ST-Line versions don't have lowered / firmer suspension but are still excellent at handling. Should also be in your price range. You'll likely need to pay to have the alloys and tyres swapped out, but with a newer car, you may be able to sell the OEMs to recoup 'some' of the extra cost. Or you buy new and get them specced as you want, but you'll have to wait a while.

I'm sure other examples:

Latest Polo 1L Tsi 110hp (0-60 in around 9.9 sec) mid-spec SE-L trim, equivalent Seat Ibiza or Skoda Fabia. I suspect the Audi A1 would have too firm a ride and/or not be able to be shod on mid-profile tyres, mainly because their range is more sporty to start with than the others.

Mazda2 1.5L 95hp SE-L Nav (0-60 in around 9.7 sec) - GT Sport Nav 115hp (or equivalent) may be fitted on too low a profile tyres or have too big brakes (not sure) but is a bit quicker at 0-60 in around 9 sec.

Possibly the Pug 208 but I'm not too up on that car (just looked at the specs), and again, you'd need to check what OEM tyres they have and what higher profile ones that are possible on them, if any.

Sporty small car recommendations… - paul 1963

Suzuki swift sport...easy.

Sporty small car recommendations… - badbusdriver

Suzuki swift sport...easy.

Not that easy given the OP doesn't want ultra low profile tyres. I believe those on the current Swift Sport are 195/45 x 17.

The Mazda 2 is a good shout by Andy though, the 115bhp version usually comes on 16" rims with (I think) 195/60's.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Andrew-T

Given the difficulties mentioned already, you could go retro. There are some fully restored Pug 205 GTI's for sale if you have £15K to spare, or better ... :-)

No problems there with low profile tyres, and probably more fun to drive.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Adampr

Given the difficulties mentioned already, you could go retro. There are some fully restored Pug 205 GTI's for sale if you have £15K to spare, or better ... :-)

No problems there with low profile tyres, and probably more fun to drive.

I was thinking something fairly similar. Go back a few years and there were plenty of fun small cars.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Engineer Andy

Given the difficulties mentioned already, you could go retro. There are some fully restored Pug 205 GTI's for sale if you have £15K to spare, or better ... :-)

No problems there with low profile tyres, and probably more fun to drive.

I was thinking something fairly similar. Go back a few years and there were plenty of fun small cars.

Even some of the earlier gen Mini Coopers ( modern ones, not the 'original' tiny car) were shod on relatively sensible tyres. Shame also on the 'max car size' front as some of those ealier SEAT Leon SCs (2013 - 18) in 1.4 TSI SE 140hp version (3dr version of Skidpan's previous car) could well be (like his car was) shod on perfectly sensible (and very common and thus excellent value / availability) 205/55 R16V tyres, and the car has a 0-60 time of 8.1 sec, the same as the FR version that was likely shod on 17in or (later) 18in lower profile tyres.

Nice car all around and not that dissimilar (a bit bigger) to the size of the current Fiesta

Sporty small car recommendations… - japdriver

Hi Andrew - it’s a nice idea a retro pug but badly fails the 5 door only criteria! Can’t see her elderly mum and dad getting in the back of one of them…(all I looked at are 3 door - not sure they did a 5 door?)

Also £15 - £25k on a 30 odd year old car with no modern safety features and over a 100k miles is not tenable for a use everyday 10k a year car…but a nice idea I hadn’t pondered!

Sporty small car recommendations… - Andrew-T

Hi Andrew - it’s a nice idea a retro pug but badly fails the 5 door only criteria! Can’t see her elderly mum and dad getting in the back of one of them…(all I looked at are 3 door - not sure they did a 5 door?)

Also £15 - £25k on a 30 odd year old car with no modern safety features and over a 100k miles is not tenable for a use everyday 10k a year car…but a nice idea I hadn’t pondered!

Sorry, JD, I didn't allow for elderly rellies in the back seat. There were never any 5-door pocket-rocket 205s - the closest was the GTx with a 1.4 engine or possibly a D-turbo. I've had those, but there are very few left now, and no-one seems interested in fettling one like a GTI. Pity.

Sporty small car recommendations… - SLO76
“ Sorry, JD, I didn't allow for elderly rellies in the back seat. There were never any 5-door pocket-rocket 205s - the closest was the GTx with a 1.4 engine or possibly a D-turbo. I've had those, but there are very few left now, and no-one seems interested in fettling one like a GTI. Pity.”

The 205 XS/GT was an absolute peach of a thing back in the day. Far better car than its rivals such as the SR Nova and Fiesta 1.4S yet weirdly didn’t sell that well.
Sporty small car recommendations… - Andrew-T
The 205 XS/GT was an absolute peach of a thing back in the day. Far better car than its rivals such as the SR Nova and Fiesta 1.4S yet weirdly didn’t sell that well.

But only the GT had 5 doors - and there are few of those left too ....

Sporty small car recommendations… - Adampr

Hi Andrew - it’s a nice idea a retro pug but badly fails the 5 door only criteria! Can’t see her elderly mum and dad getting in the back of one of them…(all I looked at are 3 door - not sure they did a 5 door?)

Also £15 - £25k on a 30 odd year old car with no modern safety features and over a 100k miles is not tenable for a use everyday 10k a year car…but a nice idea I hadn’t pondered!

Sorry, JD, I didn't allow for elderly rellies in the back seat. There were never any 5-door pocket-rocket 205s - the closest was the GTx with a 1.4 engine or possibly a D-turbo. I've had those, but there are very few left now, and no-one seems interested in fettling one like a GTI. Pity.

There were 5 door 309 GTIs weren't there?

Anyway, back to the current day. I know it's not manual, but £20k would buy a very nice Renault Zoe. 0-60 is 9.5 seconds, but 0-30 is as quick as an Up GTI.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Andrew-T

<< There were 5-door 309 GTIs weren't there? >>

Yes, there were, right at the end of production, 1988/89. I must have a look to see if any are still around.

Edit - about 10K cars must have been registered, and around 360 still are, about 50 on the road. H-M-L website doesn't differentiate 3-door cars from 5-door though.

Edited by Andrew-T on 09/06/2023 at 12:54

Sporty small car recommendations… - SLO76
Suzuki Swift 1.4T Sport 5dr? Hoot to drive, very reliable, cheap to run and although it doesn’t come with a spare wheel you can buy a space saver for it. I do know a couple of fellas with UP! GTi’s and neither speak of ongoing punctures being an issue, they both love the wee cars. These will be cult classics in a few years, tiny fun to drive hot hatches like this will never exist again. I’d say you’ve been unlucky. Maybe buy a spare alloy and tyre for it on eBay and keep the car.


www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185909497652?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&m...Y

Edited by SLO76 on 08/06/2023 at 22:48

Sporty small car recommendations… - movilogo

I think any car can be driven sportily if you want. Just rev the engine to 5000 RPM before you shift. You can do with most automatics too if you have +- override paddles etc.

Of course laws of physics will still apply so some characteristics will depend on whether hatchback or SUV, FWD/RWD etc.

Sporty small car recommendations… - John F
Ridiculous 40 profile ‘rubber band’ tyres make every pothole a potential rac call out, and the tyres are not commonly stocked - 195/40/17 so it’s out of action for 24 hours waiting for a tyre to be sourced. ........... Any ideas please?

40 profile tyres are recommended for my Audi A8 but I found that 45 profile tyres were available for about half the price. They increased the total wheel diameter by a mere 3.7%, but in practice I noticed no difference. One has to be aware, though, that at an indicated (and if accurate) 100mph one is actually doing, ahem, 103.7mph. 195/45/17 tyres appear to be widely available and, like my tyres, would afford greater protection from potholes for the wheel rims.

Edited by John F on 10/06/2023 at 21:13

Sporty small car recommendations… - badbusdriver
Ridiculous 40 profile ‘rubber band’ tyres make every pothole a potential rac call out, and the tyres are not commonly stocked - 195/40/17 so it’s out of action for 24 hours waiting for a tyre to be sourced. ........... Any ideas please?

40 profile tyres are recommended for my Audi A8 but I found that 45 profile tyres were available for about half the price. They increased the total wheel diameter by a mere 3.7%, but in practice I noticed no difference. One has to be aware, though, that at an indicated (and if accurate) 100mph one is actually doing, ahem, 103.7mph. 195/45/17 tyres appear to be widely available and, like my tyres, would afford greater protection from potholes for the wheel rims.

Well there are a couple of points. First is that 3.7% is actually quite a big jump considering no more than 3% either way is the recommendation (no idea about the legalities though). Second is that I'd guess the insurers would need to be informed. I'd be more inclined to get smaller wheels to get the greater cushioning of the taller sidewalls while keeping more or less the same diameter

But also, a car of that type with its power and torque (especially an auto) would much more easily be able to deal with an increase like that than a small sporty car like the OP's. In the Up GTI, an increase in size like that could not only be very noticeable for the driver, but will also put extra strain on the drivetrain.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Engineer Andy
Ridiculous 40 profile ‘rubber band’ tyres make every pothole a potential rac call out, and the tyres are not commonly stocked - 195/40/17 so it’s out of action for 24 hours waiting for a tyre to be sourced. ........... Any ideas please?

40 profile tyres are recommended for my Audi A8 but I found that 45 profile tyres were available for about half the price. They increased the total wheel diameter by a mere 3.7%, but in practice I noticed no difference. One has to be aware, though, that at an indicated (and if accurate) 100mph one is actually doing, ahem, 103.7mph. 195/45/17 tyres appear to be widely available and, like my tyres, would afford greater protection from potholes for the wheel rims.

Well there are a couple of points. First is that 3.7% is actually quite a big jump considering no more than 3% either way is the recommendation (no idea about the legalities though). Second is that I'd guess the insurers would need to be informed. I'd be more inclined to get smaller wheels to get the greater cushioning of the taller sidewalls while keeping more or less the same diameter

According to that Oponeo website I referred to earlier, the legally max permitted change is +1.5% or -2% from the OEM fitted, not what's currently fitted (otherwise you could keep going further and further away from what was calibrated when built). 3% is outside of that legally permissable change, at least according to Opoeo.

Without downsizing the wheels, the only way to 'upsize' from 40 to 45 profile tyres is to reduce the tyre width so that the overall rolling diameter stays within that +1.5% / -2% limit.

It might be possible, and beneficial if that 'new size' is more common, as there'll be more choice and of newer designed tyres, and it'll be more widely available and likely a good deal cheaper. Unfortunately it could go the other way. Just luck for the tyre size combo,m and that's assuming the new version fits the hub.

But also, a car of that type with its power and torque (especially an auto) would much more easily be able to deal with an increase like that than a small sporty car like the OP's. In the Up GTI, an increase in size like that could not only be very noticeable for the driver, but will also put extra strain on the drivetrain.

According (again) to that Oponeo website, the 'calculator' tool for alternative tyre size combos only throws up even lower profile 17in tyres, which isn't an option, probably for the reasons you state: it would be a waste of time (even if you could downsize the width to [say] 185mm to compensate) upsizing to a 45 profile tyre, as the sidewall height would only increase from 78mm to 87.75mm.

To get a decent ride quality and have less susceptibility to pothole and kerbing damage, my (educated) guess is that you need to be a reasonable amount over 100mm for the sidewall height (apparently the height of a UK road kerbstone), in my view nearer 110mm high as the bottom part of the tyre gets squashed and thus the effective sidewall height in reduced.

That would mean downsizing the wheel considerably to 15in and with skinnier tyres. I doubt if the Up GTi could take them, which is why a car designed to do so (the Mazda2 mid-spec could, and a good number of similar performance Fiestas come shod on reasonable 195/55 R16s) would be a better option.

With higher performance cars, you have far less options in this regard.

Sporty small car recommendations… - John F

40 profile tyres are recommended for my Audi A8 but I found that 45 profile tyres were available for about half the price. They increased the total wheel diameter by a mere 3.7%, but in practice I noticed no difference.

Well there are a couple of points. First is that 3.7% is actually quite a big jump considering no more than 3% either way is the recommendation (no idea about the legalities though).

3.7% is such a tiny 'jump' as to be practically unnoticeable. On my car it is a 1.27cm increase in the wheel radius. I certainly don't notice this difference in the gap between the tyre and wheel arch. Anyway, the air suspension can vary the ground clearance between 9.5cm and 12.5cm according to the handbook, depending on the chosen setteng.

According to that Oponeo website ...... the legally max permitted change is +1.5% or -2% from the OEM fitted, not what's currently fitted ........ 3% is outside of that legally permissable change, at least according to Opoeo.

Oponeo (a vendor of cheap tyres) has, AFAIK, no special legal knowledge. I don't know where this 3% comes from, although I have found it on a Canadian tyre vendor's site. I have ploughed through the MoT handbook, the Motor Vehicle Tyres (Safety) Regs 1994 and the tyre-relevant bits of the Road Vehicles (Construction and use) Regs 1986 and can find no reference to a percentage diameter variation limit.

Sporty small car recommendations… - Greendean

I really like the BMW M2, it is great to drive,

Sporty small car recommendations… - badbusdriver

I really like the BMW M2, it is great to drive,

Well that's grand.

Unfortunately the OP doesn't want ultra low profile tyres (which the M2 has). Also the OP's budget is £20k, £7k less than the cheapest M2 on Autotrader (which isn't an insurance write off). The OP also wants a small car, and while the M2 is amongst the smallest BMW's, it isnt actually that small and is positively huge next to an Up GTI.

Sporty small car recommendations… - sammy1

Well your original thoughts on the Audi A1 now with 1.5 engine is the one I would have on sensible wheels. Most people are going for Autos and worth trying before you dismiss. Second choice is a MINI again 1.5 manual or auto.