Not sure how much longer the old girl will last but it may be worth changing the belt while your in there.......
Belt? Maybe chain, but with the age of the stuff he drives, I suspect it may be side valve.
;>)
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No idea if it helps, but I found an engine manual for the CB23 that seems fairly straightforward:
www.workshopservicemanual.com/101-Charade-Engine-S...p
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Think I've got that one, thanks, though it says its for the G100. That one says G11 but I think its the same manual,
Have downloaded it and will check later
Skywing is CB22. Dunno what all the differences are but the oil pump, which I;ve had off and open. looked like the CB20 one rather than the CB23
The torque specs for CB20 and CB23 are unfortunately different, but the range overlapps. Since I don't have specs for the CB22 I'll aim for somewhere in the overlapp, though I have no guarantee that is OK for the CB22
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Not sure how much longer the old girl will last but it may be worth changing the belt while your in there.......
Belt? Maybe chain, but with the age of the stuff he drives, I suspect it may be side valve.
;>)
If I was staying in Taiwan for much longer and could get a workshop manual for it (MAY be available in Indonesia) my next vehicle would probably be a Toyota ZACE, which is OHV pushrod and thus a step in that right direction
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I would use the second method Ed, no1 at tdc etc..presume you have a torque wrench? And a new head gasket, you really need to follow the manual and refit the bolts dry and torque those bolts to the correct amount and in the right order mate.
I suppose so
But think what a dry (which to me means solvent-washed, acetone if I can get it) steel thread is likely to do to a dry (ditto) aluminium thread at high torque.
On second thought, maybe DONT think about it.
As apparently the people specifying it didn't, or they were rather lacking in mechanical sympathy.
But maybe they didn't really want it to be done more than once?
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Head bolts are out, cam sprocket is off (following the Old Skool Funk tethered sprocket technique) but cylinder head is not responding to whacks with a hammer via a rubber mallet.
Not really surprised by this, since the only other engine I've taken the head off did not come quietly.
Might have to improvise some lifting gear, though a bit short of safe attachment points,
How about putting the valve gear back on and turning it over with plugs in, so compression pops it?
Not keen on that "solution" since its a bit of work and might warp the head.
Any better ideas?
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Bigger hammer?
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Are there any dowels besides the main bolts ? (I don't suppose you can check easily :-( ..
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Warming the head with blowlamp/hot air gun might just expand it a fraction to unstick the joint. Cushioning the impact of a larger, steel hammer with a piece of wood may also do the trick.
I used the latter on a Ford Zephyr head.
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Warming the head with blowlamp/hot air gun might just expand it a fraction to unstick the joint. Cushioning the impact of a larger, steel hammer with a piece of wood may also do the trick.
I used the latter on a Ford Zephyr head.
I was cushioning the impact of a 4 pound club hammer with a rubber hammer, since I find it easier to hold in place than a piece of wood. More finger friendly, though maybe woo0d is more aluminium-casting friendly.
This is a relatively little aluminium casting, though, and there's probably a limit to how much rubber hammering it can take, Wasn't comfortable hitting it any harder.
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Seemed to be only one dowel, though I thought 2 was more normal?
I was going to put the head in a bin bag for bicycle transport back to my room, but then I thought that its outside was dirtier than the general environment, so I should just leave it open.
Forgot about the possibility of things like assembly dowels dropping off it, so if there were 2, I might have lost the second one.
Suppose I will find out later. Too dark and mosquited now.
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Dunno if it was "a better idea" since it felt pretty marginal, but a BIG crowbar with a chisel end got it loose, and AFAIK didnt break anything.
Not a very pretty sight inside though.
Edited by edlithgow on 11/04/2023 at 01:57
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Theres a hard red crackly stuff in the water passages that I take to be some kind of block/head sealant.
Evidently it was working, but doesn't bode very well for getting it to re-seal
Any idea what it might be, in terms of brand?
I would think ts unlikely Taiwan has its own products in this area.
Theres some damage to cylinder #2 wall. Zooming in to a photo, it looks like lots of superimposed little impact marks rather than a scratch.
My best guess would be a broken end of a piston ring dancing around, but of course I don't really know. Might post photos later
Don't think I'm going to try and do anything about that, or indeed much else.
On the B series I re-ground the valves and polished the piston crowns (but I THINK I might have used Scotch Brite, widely recommended and widely condemned). Those (dished) piston tops were flat on removal, being filled in with a grey deposit which at the bottom looked rather like metallic lead, which I suppose it might have been.
These are just a bit sooty and will just get a quick and dirty wipe down.
There was oil and coolant in cylinder 2 but I'm hoping that happened during head removal.
On the B series I re-used the HG and got away with it. I was intending to try that again, but now I've seen it I'll try and get a replacement..
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Your 'red stuff' sounds like 'Hermitite' to me, a gasket sealant, not sure it's available now? Had a very distinctive smell as I remember....
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Your 'red stuff' sounds like 'Hermitite' to me, a gasket sealant, not sure it's available now? Had a very distinctive smell as I remember....
Last time I bought some I got it off Amazon.
Hylomar was another product of the day, that was blue.
With modern gaskets and manufacturing techniques sealants are not normally used these days, back a few years when I built crossflows they were essential.
Built 2 Zetecs and not used sealant on either. The earlier silvertop used a composite gasket but the later blacktop used a very thin steel gasket, still amazed that they actually work.
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Your 'red stuff' sounds like 'Hermitite' to me, a gasket sealant, not sure it's available now? Had a very distinctive smell as I remember....
From what I remember about red hermatite is that it didn't set hard (think I've still got a tube in the garage). There was a green hermatite that did set hard.
I suspect the red crystals in the waterways could be a coolant leak sealer.
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Coolant leak sealer is what I meant, since it seemed to be mostly in the water jacket, though I might try and get a head gasket sealer anyway.
Not really "crystals", more like the caremalised glaze on a creme brule (Pretentious, Moi?) only reddish,
Not done any more to it after the initial partial clean since I had some proofreading work to do, but I'll likely do some more this evening
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Well that sucks.
Chasing the thread from inside the head doesn't fix it.
Spark plug still jams half way in, so I suppose has cut its own at an angle, which isn't corrected coming the other way.
On the bright side it suggests the fancy back tap that I considered ordering from the US wouldn't have worked either..
I suppose I'd better start looking for a helicoil kit (or equivalent) while I have the head off.
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Well that sucks.
Chasing the thread from inside the head doesn't fix it.
Spark plug still jams half way in, so I suppose has cut its own at an angle, which isn't corrected coming the other way.
On the bright side it suggests the fancy back tap that I considered ordering from the US wouldn't have worked either..
I suppose I'd better start looking for a helicoil kit (or equivalent) while I have the head off.
This thread reminds me of the Odyssey/ Virgil's Aeneid, a long saga of one man's struggle against a variety of problems. I await the eventual success,
Edited by galileo on 12/04/2023 at 21:28
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<< This thread reminds me of the Odyssey/ Virgil's Aeneid, a long saga of one man's struggle against a variety of problems. I await the eventual success, >>
Augean Stables ? Sisyphus pushing boulder uphill (is that right?) :-) A labour of Hercules, anyhow ....
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Dunno about that. My understanding is those ole Greeks did tragedy, not farce. Either way the happy ending is more a Hollywood Musical thing.
If in the Greek Chorus, I THINK one is supposed to keep a straight face, but I’ll cut you some slack.
No Show Tunes, though. We are not in San Francisco.
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It seems to me that the logical next move, if back-chasing fails, is not a thread insert (yet) but a back-tap. The back-chaser is obstructed by the head and might not be getting deep enough. A tap will hopefully be less obstructed and should be able to re-cut the damaged portion.
It would probably be worth trying to protect the undamaged thread on the inside end of the spark plug hole from getting cut by the tap. Perhaps I could dip the tap in hot candle wax to give temporary protection?
Alternatively, a forming tap seems to be designed to reduce the risk, but I might not be able to find one of them.
Edited by edlithgow on 13/04/2023 at 02:01
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It seems to me that the logical next move, if back-chasing fails, is not a thread insert (yet) but a back-tap. The back-chaser is obstructed by the head and might not be getting deep enough. A tap will hopefully be less obstructed and should be able to re-cut the damaged portion.
It would probably be worth trying to protect the undamaged thread on the inside end of the spark plug hole from getting cut by the tap. Perhaps I could dip the tap in hot candle wax to give temporary protection?
Alternatively, a forming tap seems to be designed to reduce the risk, but I might not be able to find one of them.
Ed, the correct tap will not damage or cut into any undamaged threads trust me and even if it may ( but it really really won't providing its 100% the correct size) dipping it in wax would do nothing.
If you can get a taper tap rather than a plug or bottoming tap as you'll find it much easier to get it started ....oh you'll also need a tap wrench, don't be tempted to use a spanner etc and use the correct technique 3/4 turn then back off1/4 turn, this will break off the tiny bits of swarf and make for a much cleaner thread.
Sorry if I'm 'teaching you to suck eggs' .....
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Coming from the inside out I shouldn;t really have to get it started, since I'll be running into (as yet) largely undamaged threads.
re "dipping it in wax would do nothiing" my theory is it'll coat it in wax. I'm pretty confident that theory is sound.
Less confident that it'll protect the existing threads, but I can't so far see much downside to it.
However, I am also pretty confident that all this messing about will not solve the problem.
IOW, having exhausively back-chased etc, the plug will probably still follow its own wrong line in.
I've scoured the Internyet and havn't much liked what I found
(I quite liked the suggested get you home bodge for the almost peculiarly American shot spark plug syndrome - slightly oval it in a vice and shove it back in. Harbour Freight sell horrible "repair" kits that are considerably less elegant than that).
My new hair (hare?) brained scheme is gooping up the damaged portion with epoxy, molten lead/solder, or...er...molten aluminium, and then back tapping it.
Just a few details to be worked out/decisions to be made...and maybe a foundry to be built.
Edited by edlithgow on 14/04/2023 at 02:28
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So far (2 goes, one in Tainan, other in Kaohsiung) havn't been able to get an M14X1.25 bolt.
Weird, but that;s Taiwan
I tried a couple of BIG Bolt Bizniziz, wall to wall Bolt Boxes, bolts from Brunell to Von Braun, a Bolt Bonanza.
Nope.
I tried a few smaller hole-in-the-wall Bolt Boutiques. A couple of them reacted like US rednecks unwillingly confronting the metric system for the first time, but that was probably just a reaction to my foreigness.
One guy spent quite a while digging out some M14X2.0. No idea why.
I mean, I might not have known a couple of weeks ago what the 1.25 meant (though I might have guessed) but his Business is Bolts.
Bolts are his Business
Bolts, in fact, are his Bread and Butter (with a side-dish/sideline/garnish of Nuts), and Id shown him a spark plug, but he still looked surprised 'when I pointed out the much coa***r thread.
Still, nice of him to bother looking.
This simply cannot be unobtanium, even here, but I got hot and p***ed off and gave up.
I'll try again later.
Or maybe there are some on the car??
Edited by edlithgow on 14/04/2023 at 11:27
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Got a tap. Its pretty short, so I didn't get a tap handle since that would just foul the head. I'll probably have to use it with a ratchet but havn't tried yet.
Been trying to find High Temp Epoxy locally, so far without success, unsurprisingly
www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-37901-Temperature-Resistan...3
Using molten aluminium doesn't look practical, since its likely to have poor adhesion and I suppose might distort the head
If I can't get a High Temp Epoxy, mol;ten lead may be the best option.
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Using molten aluminium doesn't look practical, since its likely to have poor adhesion and I suppose might distort the head
If I can't get a High Temp Epoxy, mol;ten lead may be the best option.
Sounds like you will be building that foundry after all, Ed ....
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Got a tap. Its pretty short, so I didn't get a tap handle since that would just foul the head. I'll probably have to use it with a ratchet but havn't tried yet.
Been trying to find High Temp Epoxy locally, so far without success, unsurprisingly
www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-37901-Temperature-Resistan...3
Using molten aluminium doesn't look practical, since its likely to have poor adhesion and I suppose might distort the head
If I can't get a High Temp Epoxy, mol;ten lead may be the best option.
Ed, if you use lead then lead hardened with Antimony might be better than pure or plumbers' solder. Don't suppose printers' type is readily available, that ought to be hard enough.
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Got a tap. Its pretty short, so I didn't get a tap handle since that would just foul the head. I'll probably have to use it with a ratchet but havn't tried yet.
Been trying to find High Temp Epoxy locally, so far without success, unsurprisingly
www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-37901-Temperature-Resistan...3
Using molten aluminium doesn't look practical, since its likely to have poor adhesion and I suppose might distort the head
If I can't get a High Temp Epoxy, mol;ten lead may be the best option.
Ed, if you use lead then lead hardened with Antimony might be better than pure or plumbers' solder. Don't suppose printers' type is readily available, that ought to be hard enough.
A 12mm wood dowel could serve as a 'core' to leave a thin shell of lead on the threads, you would use undamaged threads to start the tap in the right orientation.
The problem I foresee would be to get the molten lead to run down the annular gap, unless the head was pre-heated it would tend to freeze too soon.
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Got a tap. Its pretty short, so I didn't get a tap handle since that would just foul the head. I'll probably have to use it with a ratchet but havn't tried yet.
Been trying to find High Temp Epoxy locally, so far without success, unsurprisingly
www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-37901-Temperature-Resistan...3
Using molten aluminium doesn't look practical, since its likely to have poor adhesion and I suppose might distort the head
If I can't get a High Temp Epoxy, mol;ten lead may be the best option.
Ed, if you use lead then lead hardened with Antimony might be better than pure or plumbers' solder. Don't suppose printers' type is readily available, that ought to be hard enough.
A 12mm wood dowel could serve as a 'core' to leave a thin shell of lead on the threads, you would use undamaged threads to start the tap in the right orientation.
The problem I foresee would be to get the molten lead to run down the annular gap, unless the head was pre-heated it would tend to freeze too soon.
That was pretty much the plan, though I thought I might use a stick of chalk (spot the ex-teecha) as the mould core spigot, since I should be able to break it up in situ (assuming the heat doesn't make it explode, of course)
Current favorite is high temp epoxy though.
I might tamp aluminium foil down with the epoxy, especially if I get unreinforced resin or just use it straight, more likely with the "steel reinforced" stuff, which is supposed to be tappable.
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I thought wheel weights, which I think are lead-antimony.
Its looking like I should be able to get a high temperature epoxy via e-commerce though,
https://shopee.tw/product/5304962/8042373958?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIquOqurWw_gIVVFpgCh3-NwS2EAYYBiABEgLjdvD_BwE
(All in Chi but from other sites, and JB welds site itself, that stuff should be OK
JB Weld - High Temperature Epoxy - hemingwaykits.com
JB Weld - High Temperature Epoxy - hemingwaykits.com
Unique projects for the small workshop owner. Please browse our Toolroom and Engine Bay for our latest project k...
"This product is the answer to a many a prayer! It is a 2-part epoxy adhesive suitable for use on all of the materials specified in our engines. What sets it apart from any-old epoxy adhesive is its unique specification. It can withstand temperatures up to 500ºF. Once set, it is resistant to water, petrol, oil and virtually any chemical including acids. It can be used as an adhesive, laminate, plug, filler, sealant, or electrical insulator. After 15-24 hours of curing at room temperature, it can be drilled, ground, tapped, machined, filed, sanded, and painted. It dries to a dark grey (steel like) colour"
11.35 quid (429 TWD) so if it’s the same stuff, and not fake, Shoppee price is OK;
260C should be enough
I also seem to have found (via a websearch) a local supplier of Loctite stuff right here in Tainan City (Knock me dahn wiv a fevva!). Loctite do better technical info on products, and there is a 200C epoxy, but none of the metal repair pastes seem to be high temperature.
SO I'll be Waiting For The Marines, in the shape of all-American JB Weld, once I can persuade a Chinese reader to order it for me.
Edited by edlithgow on 18/04/2023 at 16:46
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Duplicate post
Edited by galileo on 16/04/2023 at 12:45
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Not really "crystals", more like the caremalised glaze on a creme brule (Pretentious, Moi?) only reddish,
Could be just anti-freeze. I've experienced it forming a jelly like substance in thermo-syphon systems, Austin 7 and suchlike. In one case it blocked water flow causing the engine to overheat.
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