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Not exactly sure of location or access , but an hour’s labour should cover it , provided it comes out without damaging the threaded boss in the exhaust. Unlikely to be any wiring issues.
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Almost a year without spending out. Is the car still performing as well given that you are getting the dash light. Did it pass the last MOT and when is the next A DIYer might try cleaning the sensor, but by the time you mess around probably more cost effective to change assuming it is this. Not worth skimping on the part price and labour only an hour provided it comes off easily on an old car
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Cleaning the sensor is not going to fix the internal heater circuit fault .
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Cleaning the sensor is not going to fix the internal heater circuit fault .
Yes but his seems to have taken a long while to break down I wonder if something else is going on hence my questions to how is car is functioning. Dash lights as you know are just that sometimes Yes the sensor does have a limited life.
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Japanese cars dont usually like aftermarket/universal/Bosch sensors. Splash out on a genuine from the dealer. Lots of fake Denso stuff about as well.
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Japanese cars dont usually like aftermarket/universal/Bosch sensors. Splash out on a genuine from the dealer. Lots of fake Denso stuff about as well.
All well and good, but I'm predicting that will (including a madatory 'investigation' costing well over £50 [it depends upon whether they are in a 'generous' mood and only 'charge' for half an hour's 'work'] which will amount to reading a fault code which takes less than 5 mins) their quotation will come in north of £300 all-in, whereas the indie will likely come in under well £200.
The problem is that to get the work done, both will likey insist on the 'investigation' be done first. At least it will only cost £42 at the indie, but still...
What would be useful here is for BRers to let me what online parts wholesalers I can trust to sell genuine ones, not fakes, hopefully backed up by a guarantee.
The one I looked up was Autopartspro.
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Andy, if your that concerned then you really need to take a look at the one that's currently fitted to determine the make but as the Doc said earlier its likely to be NTK, owned by NGK btw.
Motor parts direct sell Ntk products, there's bound to be a branch round your way, please keep in mind the environment they operate in, they can be a complete pig to change.
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Lambda power.
I've used them twice. Genuine parts and quick delivery.
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Thanks for all the advice - I'm currently in the process of obtaining quotes for both parts and labour for 'it' - whatever the OEM one is (I'm trying to weedle that out of my dealership) so I can see what the local indie will fit (they won't tell me unless I go through with the diagnostic) in order to compare the two.
The big difference is the likely labour rates - £100 for the first hour of diagnostic at the dealership and a whopping £135ph thereafter (they didn't say whether that rate applies to any fitting afterwards), whereas the indie wants £42 total for the diagnostic, but admitedly that's just to plug in and use their code reader, which likely will replicate the sam,e result mine can for free.
You can see my dilemma - pay a lot for what may be a 5 min dianostic (but possibly pretending its 30 or even 60 mins to get the £100, maybe more, but they could legit do a really thorough check, including all the electrical / wiring connections etc)) vs paying a lot less but where they possibly miss the real cause - still most likely to be the sensor, but it could be the wiring, etc, and thus I've paid for a part I don't need, and possibly a cheapo know-off one at that.
It would be nice if these outfits were just honest and upfront about what work might be needed and what parts / cost is involved, so I can get a reasonable comparison. It's the reason why in the past I've shied away from local indies, despite the higher cost, but now I can't be so choosy given my finances. I don't want cheap tat or a botch job done though.
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That Is why I asked you whether your car had passed an MOT since you first had the dash light. If it is running right you might as well wait to the next MOT if it fails you might get a ""free" diagnostic and let the MOT garage do the job for your agreed price. Do you always go to the same MOT garage if so you must have some confidence in them?
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That Is why I asked you whether your car had passed an MOT since you first had the dash light. If it is running right you might as well wait to the next MOT
The problem with that is that if it is a lambda sensor at fault, then the right information isn't being sent to the ECU, and running rich for any length of time will eventually poison the catalytic converter too.
Edited by corax on 11/08/2023 at 17:42
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That Is why I asked you whether your car had passed an MOT since you first had the dash light. If it is running right you might as well wait to the next MOT
The problem with that is that if it is a lambda sensor at fault, then the right information isn't being sent to the ECU, and running rich for any length of time will eventually poison the catalytic converter too.
Presumably if it was, the mpg would be noticeably down. Over the past tankfull (this has been over the last 3 months as I'm not using the car much these days), the car's mpg is 40.4, the average normally being about the same, and it hasn't had the boost of my annual holiday trip and I've been ferrying my parents around, driving in heavier traffic more during during that period, offset to some degree by the warm-ish (but not as good as 2020-22) spring and early summer weather.
Still, I take your advice as regards the CAT (given how expensive they are to replace) and will get the issue fixed - I am just unsure which 'garage' to use.
To Sammy:
The fault appeared last September, the code was cleared and it didn't appear again until last month (it passed its MOT in December).
Whilst it is true that MOT failures and non-failure faults (advisroies of each type) are flagged, unless they are a physical fault (damaged tyre, suspension bush, etc) that can seen, in my view the dealership will still want to do a 'proper diagnostic', even if in reality that is just the very same OBD-II code reading exercise, and they may not even do one as part of the MOT, just fail it due to the presence of the 'engine check light', at least in their 'first attempt' to 'fix' the problem.
I am still of the mind that most dealerships make most profits on out-of-warranty diagnostics and repairs, often because the 'mechanics' are more box-ticking technicians and thus they replace a part top of the failure cause list first rather than use their initiative and experience to determine the real cause(s) of the fault, sometime which is an easy/cheap to repair item.
Rather like with modern tech, there isn't the skill in most 'repair outfits' to do this these days - just replace entire modules and at great expense, but charging a small fortune on the 'labour' rate for something a person could learn to do in a matter of a few days.
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"ii) A grounding issue or 12V connection to the battery;
iii) A wiring issue - often caused by heat (it's near the exhaust [where the sensor is] and CAT) and/or physical damage via some means or age-related."
Would I be correct in thinking that these are the commonest issues with car electrical/electronic systems, even today?
If so, thats nice, because the first (and possibly the second) probably doesnt require you to buy any bits.
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"ii) A grounding issue or 12V connection to the battery;
iii) A wiring issue - often caused by heat (it's near the exhaust [where the sensor is] and CAT) and/or physical damage via some means or age-related."
Would I be correct in thinking that these are the commonest issues with car electrical/electronic systems, even today?
If so, thats nice, because the first (and possibly the second) probably doesnt require you to buy any bits.
For this specific issue, the main cause appears to be the heater burning out, followed by the other two you highlighted.
The problem may require *more* diagnostics - you'd be suprised at the lack of experience / know-how of mechanics these days other than to plug in a OBDII scanner, and thus the cost of that could easily match or even outweigh the cost of - say - replacing the sensor unit.
The lack of honest, highly knowledgeable mechanics is a pain these days, and why many faults often get missed or frequently mis-daignosed and loads of money wasted. Its the saem in many repairer industries that use modern electronics. Too many are just technicians and not highly skilled people who know the products inside and out.
Electrical / wiring faults can often be difficult to pin down if the wiring is extensive and/or goes into hard to get to areas of the car. In this case, it could be that some piece of wiring sheath decayed due to age and possibly exaccerbated if it was near to / touching the hotter engine components, leading to a short, etc.
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Just an update on the situation. Due to the indie not being able to replace the exhaust manifold / CAT and they didn't want to make the car undrivable if they stripped the threads of the sensor housing to replace it, I've now gone and had it checked at my main dealer (£60) as this had to be done prior to any replacement works.
The wiring looked Ok to me, so presumably its the heater, which is the most common cause of the fault. I did also put some CAT/sensor cleaner in the fuel tank (Winn's) just to see if that cleaned a dirty sensor and to help keep the CAT from clogging up due to the possibly rich fuel mixture. Obviously no effect on the sensor, as I reset the fault a few times and no change - always back the next time the car was started.
It is indeed on the upstream side (ban 1, sensor 1), not downstream (sensor 2) and is now booked in for a sensor change, assuming they can get the old one off without damaging the housing threads. The exhaust manifold / CAT may have to be changed out if they can't replace it without breaking those threads. Total cost now £1700+ worst case.
I have done my best to spray the area where the sensor connects to the exhaust with release spray - whether that will help at all, given its over a month until the actual work is due, is unlikely, but it can't do any harm I hope. I may do it again the day before the works. The spray itself seems to barely come out via the straw, just dribbling.
I've had to leave it that long so I can have the car available over Christmas in order to be able to visit family. The car is also provisionally booked in for Service + MOT the same day (pm) if the snesor can be replaced by itself without causing any damage; if removing it does, then the Service + MOTwill be postponed and the car will have to sit in the dealership secure compund for a week or so until the manifold etc arrives and they can fit the work in.
Not ideal, but I've been assured by the service agent that the current MOT expiring on 6th Jan (a few days after the scheduled works etc) won't be an issue if the current MOT date of a few days before is postponed, as it won't be driven on the public road.
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Sounds like your main dealer is all doom and gloom. With the right approach and the correct tools, I can’t see it being a problem. Personally, I’d entrust the job to a good Indy, who will likely be more sympathetic with the job . Even if the threads do pull out , there are methods of repairing which the main dealer is unlikely want to do .
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Sounds like your main dealer is all doom and gloom. With the right approach and the correct tools, I can’t see it being a problem. Personally, I’d entrust the job to a good Indy, who will likely be more sympathetic with the job . Even if the threads do pull out , there are methods of repairing which the main dealer is unlikely want to do .
Trouble is that I already did entrust the job to the indie, and he tried ( a couple of months ago) to take the sensor out and it wouldn't budge, but fair do's to him he didn't force it, nor did he charge me for the work - as he didn't open the replacement sensor, he just sent it back.
I just hope he wasn't telling porkies and had actually mistaken sensor 2 for 1 and had been trying to remove the other. Either way, he didn't seem keen on going any further, mainly because he said he wasn't able to replace the CAT if the threads had got stripped.
You may well be right generally though - I've noticed how very few tradespeople in the UK these days really have the skills to actually fix problems, most just swapping out new for old/damaged, when often a repair to the device and/or to the housing/connection etc could be affected at a lower overall cost to the client.
Trying to source a good independent who is knowledgeable, trustworthy and can do a full range of work and who is reasonably local (especially in this case) is difficult. I'm now committed to using the main dealer this time.
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I know you love the car but it must be approaching the point where this is an uneconomic repair. Last month we traded in our fsh 2012 Mazda 3 for £2k having spent £600 a week before to get it through its MoT and service.
When I paid out I hadn't intended to chop it in until next year but in any case it was close to worthless without the work being done . I assume you are in a similar position. Hopefully it's otherwise sound and will soldier on.
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I know you love the car but it must be approaching the point where this is an uneconomic repair. Last month we traded in our fsh 2012 Mazda 3 for £2k having spent £600 a week before to get it through its MoT and service. When I paid out I hadn't intended to chop it in until next year but in any case it was close to worthless without the work being done . I assume you are in a similar position. Hopefully it's otherwise sound and will soldier on.
The problem is that if you buy a replacement, you're spending one heck of a lot of money in comparison to a repair such as this (even if my existing car is only worth £1250 - £1750 in the current market [if the repair wasn't needed] at a guess, about £300 for sc***) for a car that you don't know how it was owned/used, even if it comes with a full service history.
I had such an opportunity (as detailed on another recent thread) to buy a 17 plate direct replacement (Mazda3 2L petrol SE-L 4dr manual) which was a PX at my local Ford dealer going for a quite 'reasonable' (in the context of current prices) £8495. I wouldn't be able to PX mine as the repair will cost whoever buys it more than the car is likely worth, so sc*** would be the only option.
That means I'd have a cost to change of £8195 for a car I currently would be doing about 2000 - 3000 miles pa as I haven't been working for some time and only do the occasional shop / visit friends and family and perhaps an annual; holiday to Cornwall. If I'd been working (and thus earning) again, I'd be easily able to afford something much newer around the 1-3yo mark and in the £15k - £18k range.
As it stands, if this issue is the only major issue, then it could prolong the car's life for another (say) 5 years, which wouldn't be so bad. Other than general wear and tear items, the car has otherwise been excellent on the reliability front. Some rust around the front wheel arches, supposedly the underbody are is in decent nick for its age, according to my main dealership.
I'll get this sensor changed - it hopefully can be removed without stripping the threads, and would only cost about £250 - £300 total, but I'll stomach one big bill of £1700, but only once. Any similar major items after within the next couple of years and that could be the literal end of the road for the car.
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Can’t help thinking about this job . Is it actually worth fixing ? The lambda heater is not a particularly important part of the engine running system and is unlikely to affect any emission issue . I would just get the mil light cancelled just before the mot is due . My father had a Honda Accord with the same problem. Changing the lambda sensor would have doubled the valve of the car .
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Can’t help thinking about this job . Is it actually worth fixing ? The lambda heater is not a particularly important part of the engine running system and is unlikely to affect any emission issue . I would just get the mil light cancelled just before the mot is due . My father had a Honda Accord with the same problem. Changing the lambda sensor would have doubled the valve of the car .
I have cancelled the engine fault and the check engine light does indeed go out, but the next time the car is started, it comes back on again.
Unfortunately there's no way I can avoid that happening for the MOT - which would be an automatic fail, and I'd have to pay for the retest because the manifold (and/or the CAT) would have to likely be replaced too, which takes more than a week to get in, and you only have a week (apparently) for a free MOT retest.
You are correct that - at least in my car's case - it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to the car's operation: it's not running 'rough', the mpg seems to be holding up fine (maybe a bit under but it might be as much to do with how I've been using it than anything to do with the sensor).
I do have concerns over the emissions test part of the MOT and, more long term, the health of the CAT, given the indie garage did say it would induce a rich air-fuel mixture, but by how much? Will it worsen as time goes on?
If only that gen-3 Mazda3 I mentioned had come in to the local Ford dealer this time last year - I would've PXed my car because the fault had 'gone away' of its own accord and got a much newer car for a reasonable price, at least in the current market.
All this £££ pain in the backside because of a screw thread. Let's hope I get some good fortune and me spraying the connection frees it up. £200 - £300 is far more palatable than £1700+!!
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Would it be possible to simulate the sensor so the light doesn't come on?
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Would it be possible to simulate the sensor so the light doesn't come on?
Maybe, but wouldn't doing so be illegal as regards the MOT? Besides, even if wasn't, you'd have to build / buy a device to do so and fit it. TBH I'd rather just fix the actual problem rather than cover it up.
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Just an update on my car's issue - after the abortive attempt by the local indie back in the early Autumn (he didn't charge me a bean, which was nice), I took it to my main dealer (not long after the last post), who 'confirmed' the issue, and booked it in for the work in early Jan, along with the service and MOT.
As expected, they couldn't remove the sensor either, so the whole manifold had to be replaced as well as the sensor. Service and MOT cancelled until the part came in, but of course that meant I had to leave it for what could've been weeks at the dealership in their yard.
Luckily, and out of the blue, I received a message 8 days later from them to say the repair work had been done, serviced and MOTed (passed yet again, though with a number on [unrelated] advisories [brakes/suspension to keep an eye on]).
Picked it up the same day, all ok so far, which was nice, given I needed it the following day for an important family event. Just a shame that it cost me £2k all-in. Still cheaper than buying that new-er (2017) car or taking a big risk buying a quite old one (near to the age of mine) for about the same price as the work on it.
Let's just hope that the other exhaust lambda sensor doesn't fail any time soon, as that's mounted on the part attached to the CAT (would've cost about £200 less overall if that sensor couldn't be removed or without stripping the threads).
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Surely owners can't be expected to slacken and retighten every sensor every couple of years just to prevent this difficulty ?
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That’s crazy money to replace a lambda sensor . It’s likely the manifold would need to be removed to carry out the job , but sadly main dealers don’t have the expertise or equipment to get the sensor out . Their only option is fit new , they don’t repair.
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Did they give you the old manifold with the sensor still in it?
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Did they give you the old manifold with the sensor still in it?
Nope, but I could see it was all new. No use me trying to sell it, given the issue over removing the faulty sensor. Apparently over in Yanksville, they (indies, not main dealers) don't mind using really brute force to get such sensors out, stripping the threads on the housing, but then re-thread it and fit some kind of collar to fit the new part in.
Unfortunately over in Blighty, it seems that doesn't appear to be an option mechanics go for. Admittedly the US 'solution' doesn't always work, but they are wiling to try, and at a vastly lower cost.
I also agree that surely it should be a periodic maintenance item to remove such sensors, clean up the threads and re-apply anti-seize.
They (car manufacturers) probably don't for the very reason I paid so much to get it 'fixed' - the (reasonably likely) MOT failure (emissions) without it means the car would be just sc***, and the only two alternatives I previously spoke of to buy another car were either risky and/or far, far more expensive (at least at the moment) than the £1750 it cost to repair.
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Remember, main dealers are not in the business of saving money for customers. They’ll only fit new or nothing. This would have been an easy repair for a mechanic that has some sympathy for older cars .
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That’s crazy money to replace a lambda sensor . It’s likely the manifold would need to be removed to carry out the job , but sadly main dealers don’t have the expertise or equipment to get the sensor out . Their only option is fit new , they don’t repair.
Even my local (supposedly respected) indie couldn't get it out, or as he said, he didn't want to use so much force that it stripped the threads, necessitating the housing to be replaced.
As I said on my other comment, he obviously didn't feel comfortable or able to bore out the hole, fit a collar and a new thread for the sensor, as some US mechanics offer to do (saw this offered in more than one YT video). He also wasn't able (capable or facilities to do so?) to fit a new manifold either.
To be fair to my local indie, he didn't charge me for the original diagnostic, sourcing the new (Denso) sensor (unlike my dealership, he was able to send it back minus a small restocking charge at most as he hadn't opened the sealed packet) and a good while trying to remove the old one without stripping the threads. That sounds at least like he was being honest and reasonable.
I agree that the main dealer probably didn't try too hard to remove the faulty sensor. When I had an issue with the power steering firming up back in 2016, their 'fix' was just to replace the hydraulic pump etc for a similar amount.
After some Interweb research, I found that using a specialist PS/Auto box cleaning fluid did the trick, and all that cost me was the bottle (£16ish), new PS fluid (about £10) and a hand pump (about £10 - £15 again) to remove it via the reservoir.
Unfortunately in this case with the sensor, I had no way to any DIY job.
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