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Tue 31 May 2022 03:22

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - expat

I am seeing various reports on how fires in electric cars are difficult to extinguish and have to be left to burn themselves out. Are electric cars allowed in the Channel Tunnel and what happens if one goes on fire in there?

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Tue 31 May 2022 07:20

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - mcb100

The forthcoming Renault Megane E-Tech has a port in the top of the battery, accessed under the back seat, enabling the battery to be flooded. Renault are saying a battery fire is extinguished in five minutes, rather than three hours.
Not only are EV’s allowed in the tunnel, they’re encouraged via having charge points at the terminals.

Edited by mcb100 on 31/05/2022 at 07:29

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Tue 31 May 2022 08:52

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - bathtub tom

The forthcoming Renault Megane E-Tech has a port in the top of the battery, accessed under the back seat, enabling the battery to be flooded.

Flooded with what? I thought the problem was the lithium reacts with water.

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Tue 31 May 2022 09:09

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - daveyjp

Probably a lith-ex fire extinguisher which produces what looks like liquid clay and smothers the fire.

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Tue 31 May 2022 09:12

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bromptonaut

How does a real world fire involving a lithium battery in the tunnel compare with one in a conventionally fuelled petrol or diesel vehicle?

The car shuttles are equipped to suppress fires while the train continues to its destination. This may actually control a fire more effectively than in the open air with the fire having unlimited oxygen.

Passengers in the affected carriage would be evacuated to those immediately adjoining. If necessary a train can be evacuated into the service tunnel which sits between the two running tunnels.

I'd expect the tunnel operator to have planned and drilled for this sort of contingency.

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Tue 31 May 2022 09:40

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Andrew-T

This may actually control a fire more effectively than in the open air with the fire having unlimited oxygen.

Any tunnel with humans in it has to be ventilated, and the Chunnel is no different. It will have a constant air supply. As lithium reacts with water, that would be an ineffective extinguishant, so if it were tried, a lithium fire would not need much air anyway. Hydrogen is released, with all that implies.

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Tue 31 May 2022 10:09

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - sammy1

Just how does a fireman get access to a Renault battery when they turn up perhaps five minutes later and the car is a fireball?

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Tue 31 May 2022 11:03

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bromptonaut

Any tunnel with humans in it has to be ventilated, and the Chunnel is no different. It will have a constant air supply. As lithium reacts with water, that would be an ineffective extinguishant, so if it were tried, a lithium fire would not need much air anyway. Hydrogen is released, with all that implies.

Of course the tunnel itself is ventilated. Fires on the open freight shuttles have raged, consumed vehicles and caused damage to the infrastructure.

The passenger shuttles used for cars are fully enclosed and. IIRC, an individual carriage can be sealed.

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Tue 31 May 2022 11:31

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Warning

If this happening to cars, what about household item which contain lithium rechargeable batteries.

Such as that camping light with in-built batteries, power banks, bedside lamps, radios etc....

A lot of stuff these days is directly exported from small manufacturers from China, who might nto have tested their products....

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Tue 31 May 2022 11:32

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Warning

There is a disaster movie called The Tunnel (2019)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tunnel_(2019_film)

It was on on Film 4.

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Tue 31 May 2022 12:23

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Ethan Edwards

Risk is part of our daily lives. Petrol stored in tanks with rusty tanks failing hoses etc. That's pretty flammable stuff you know. So should we ban petrol cars from the chunnel too,? Let's not pretend ICE cars are completely safe. Understood more perhaps but not significantly safer. There are fire plans in place in the chunnel and they appear to be adequate. So possible incendiary incidents should have no bearing on your choice of car.

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Tue 31 May 2022 13:03

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bolt

Petrol stored in tanks with rusty tanks failing hoses etc. That's pretty flammable stuff you know. So should we ban petrol cars from the chunnel too

Petrol diesel only goes up if the vapour is exposed to flame or spark, batteries can set light /explode if a chemical problem exits in its manufacture/or by accident-

it seems it can happen anytime with a battery...?

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Tue 31 May 2022 13:59

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - thunderbird

diesel only goes up if the vapour is exposed to flame or spark

Diesel vapour, that's a new one.

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Tue 31 May 2022 14:39

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bolt

diesel only goes up if the vapour is exposed to flame or spark

Diesel vapour, that's a new one.

By the time a petrol gets going it will soon set a diesel on fire, as if you didnt get what I meant ....

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Tue 31 May 2022 16:34

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Sofa Spud

diesel only goes up if the vapour is exposed to flame or spark

Diesel vapour, that's a new one.

By the time a petrol gets going it will soon set a diesel on fire, as if you didnt get what I meant ....

If a fire is heating diesel fuel in its tank to it's 'boiling' point, if the tank ruptures, causing a pressure drop, wouldn't a lot of the liquid suddenly turn to vapour and then ignite / explode, like a BLEVE event?

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Tue 31 May 2022 17:45

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Andrew-T

<< If a fire is heating diesel fuel in its tank to its 'boiling' point, if the tank ruptures, causing a pressure drop, wouldn't a lot of the liquid suddenly turn to vapour and then ignite / explode, like a BLEVE event? >>

Neither petrol nor diesel need be at its 'boiling point' for a fire to start. There just needs to be enough vapour pressure to fall within the explosive limits in a mixture with air. As we know, petrol fires (or explosions) can happen at ambient temperature; diesel needs to be rather hotter IIRC.

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Tue 31 May 2022 18:18

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bolt

<< If a fire is heating diesel fuel in its tank to its 'boiling' point, if the tank ruptures, causing a pressure drop, wouldn't a lot of the liquid suddenly turn to vapour and then ignite / explode, like a BLEVE event? >>

Neither petrol nor diesel need be at its 'boiling point' for a fire to start. There just needs to be enough vapour pressure to fall within the explosive limits in a mixture with air. As we know, petrol fires (or explosions) can happen at ambient temperature; diesel needs to be rather hotter IIRC.

Iirc about 125c but not certain, i think the pipes would melt break before the tank melted, as depending on amount of fuel in it, would need to heat up the liquid first but above that filled point, apart from pipes would melt first

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Wed 1 Jun 2022 21:00

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - focussed

diesel only goes up if the vapour is exposed to flame or spark

Diesel vapour, that's a new one.

Or you get a leak from a diesel injector pipe or common rail at 2200 psi plus.

Very fine spray acts like a vapour.

A common cause of fires on ships.

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Tue 31 May 2022 18:39

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Adampr

I think the same happens as any other fire - the carriage seals and a load of halon gets dumped into it.

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Tue 31 May 2022 19:30

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - bathtub tom

I think the same happens as any other fire - the carriage seals and a load of halon gets dumped into it.

I thought those extinguishers were banned for causing fatalities. They certainly were in the computer rooms I knew. Although I do still have one in my garage (shush!).

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Tue 31 May 2022 19:51

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - paul 1963

I think the same happens as any other fire - the carriage seals and a load of halon gets dumped into it.

I thought those extinguishers were banned for causing fatalities. They certainly were in the computer rooms I knew. Although I do still have one in my garage (shush!).

Just to be clear lipo (lithium polymer )and lion ( lithium iron) batteries react violently when exposed to oxygen or air, the proscribed method to deal with a runaway pack is to submerge in water for 24 hours.

I work part time in the model trade, mainly high performance radio control buggys,we often see battery packs swollen and distorted through misuse, usually due to "fast charging" , providing the case is undamaged we discharge them to zero volts, cut off the connector and solder the ends together, this renders them safe for recycling.

Any packs that show damage are submerged in water for at least 24 hours.

I know the fire brigade around the m25 have adapted skips that severely damaged ev's are effectively drowned in.

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Tue 31 May 2022 20:14

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Bolt

I think the same happens as any other fire - the carriage seals and a load of halon gets dumped into it.

I thought those extinguishers were banned for causing fatalities. They certainly were in the computer rooms I knew. Although I do still have one in my garage (shush!).

Just to be clear lipo (lithium polymer )and lion ( lithium iron) batteries react violently when exposed to oxygen or air, the proscribed method to deal with a runaway pack is to submerge in water for 24 hours.

I work part time in the model trade, mainly high performance radio control buggys,we often see battery packs swollen and distorted through misuse, usually due to "fast charging" , providing the case is undamaged we discharge them to zero volts, cut off the connector and solder the ends together, this renders them safe for recycling.

Any packs that show damage are submerged in water for at least 24 hours.

I know the fire brigade around the m25 have adapted skips that severely damaged ev's are effectively drowned in.

I was under the impression these batteries are unpredictable anyway, so a fire can occur without warning and reason, sometimes because of manufacturing not going right but testing doesn`t show the problems, and classed as chemical fire as the battery doesn`t always need oxygen or air/water to burn

Hopefully these new solid state batteries will replace them as they apparently will not burn like these do...

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Fri 24 Jun 2022 03:09

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - expat

Just to be clear lipo (lithium polymer )and lion ( lithium iron) batteries react violently when exposed to oxygen or air, the proscribed method to deal with a runaway pack is to submerge in water for 24 hours.

I know the fire brigade around the m25 have adapted skips that severely damaged ev's are effectively drowned in.

Tesla goes on fire in a scrap yard. Submerged as Paul 1963 said.

www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/tesla_model_s_explo.../

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Fri 24 Jun 2022 10:49

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Ethan Edwards

Submerged in liquid you say. Except for the Leaf EV batteries are liquid cooled these days.

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Fri 24 Jun 2022 12:02

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Gibbo_Wirral

Can't believe they had to dig a pit, fill it with water and drop it in.

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Tue 12 Jul 2022 10:41

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - jchinuk

Watching videos on YouTube where electric cars are broken down, look for 'Sandy Munro', most of the batteries have extensive liquid cooling and thermal management is essential in EVs.

So, in most cases the batteries have a volume of water in cooling pipes contained within them.

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Tue 12 Jul 2022 12:42

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - Andrew-T

Watching videos on YouTube where electric cars are broken down, look for 'Sandy Munro', most of the batteries have extensive liquid cooling and thermal management is essential in EVs. So, in most cases the batteries have a volume of water in cooling pipes contained within them.

That being so, should we expect a rise in EV fires during the present hot spell ?

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Tue 12 Jul 2022 13:00

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - focussed

This big battery looks really impressive, it can power a million homes for 30 minutes!

www.tesla.com/en_AU/videos/vbb#:~:text=In%20respon...d.

But, when it was being set up and tested, before it was commissioned-

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tes...e

Back to the drawing board then!

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Tue 12 Jul 2022 22:35

Any - Lithium battery fires in tunnels - alan1302

This big battery looks really impressive, it can power a million homes for 30 minutes!

www.tesla.com/en_AU/videos/vbb#:~:text=In%20respon...d.

But, when it was being set up and tested, before it was commissioned-

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tes...e

Back to the drawing board then!

No need, it's all up and running now. New tech has problems, they get ironed out and people benefit. You can't expect perfection from the get go - everything has problems at first.

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