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Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - movilogo

I don't drive a hybrid at the moment but I intend to get a hybrid as my next car.

I find one of the most baffling part of driving a hybrid is to interpret the HSI (Hybrid System Indicator) gauge. This example is from Toyota but all hybrids have similar HSI.

It replaces RPM gauge of traditional cars. It has 3 segments

  • PWR
  • ECO
  • CHG

Here is a stock picture of HSI

attachments.priuschat.com/attachment-files/2021/10...g

Sometimes there is separate screen showing whether motor assisting engine or not. But this post is about the HSI gauge only.

I observed few 1st person driving videos in YouTube. It felt to me like this:

  • CHR = car decelerating
  • ECO = car most maintaining a stable speed
  • PWR = car accelerating

[1] Why do we need a gauge for this? Drivers know when they are accelerating or decelerating and speedometer shows this already (speeding going down vs up).

[2] The needle goes to PWR mode even car is making normal acceleration - in non-hybrid cars it would be redline zone if comparing with HSI gauge. Does it mean engine is redlining in hybrid too? Or in a CVT (for all Toyota hybrids) engine RPM is always kept to a limited range and gear ratio is varied instead?

[3] Can one figure out whether engine is on or off by looking at HSI alone?

[4] Although there is no RPM marking, can this gauge be used to figure out relative RPM based on whether needle is up or down?

Majority of hybrid drivers pay no attention to HSI but I believe as car nerds, we should do :-)

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - paul 1963

My car has a similar display option showing when the motor is helping and when the battery is charging etc, bit of a novelty really, I found it interesting for about ten minutes, I just let it all do it's thing without me monitoring it.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - RichT54

My car has a similar display option showing when the motor is helping and when the battery is charging etc, bit of a novelty really, I found it interesting for about ten minutes, I just let it all do it's thing without me monitoring it.

I agree. My Jazz hybrid has the option to show an animated schematic showing how the power is flowing, but after seeing it briefly I've not really bothered to look at it again. The instrument panel has an indicator that shows when you are in pure EV mode or if the ICE is running and there is a column of LED segments to show the state of charge of the HV battery. I might give these an occasional glance, but it's very much the case of letting the car get on with it and just driving as normal.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - badbusdriver

I find one of the most baffling part of driving a hybrid is to interpret the HSI (Hybrid System Indicator) gauge. This example is from Toyota but all hybrids have similar HSI.

[1] Why do we need a gauge for this? Drivers know when they are accelerating or decelerating and speedometer shows this already (speeding going down vs up).

You could also question why you need a rev counter in an automatic car. Or why you need display showing which radio station you are listening to (it could show you once when you switch on the ignition, or if you change station, then remain blank)

Or by the same argument, you could also question why a car has auto wipers or lights as drivers also know (or should!) when it is raining or getting dark.

In a self charging hybrid, invariably the best policy is just to let the car do its own thing. In a PHEV (with a decent electric only range), it might be a good idea (on a longer journey) to 'save' the battery power for going through a town or city. Otherwise again, just leave the car to get on with it.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - Sparrow

A friend who has a plug in hybrid Hyundai Tuscon would agree with letting it do its own thing, but on a long trip, eg London to Devon that he does regularly, he switches to "electric only" for the last 30 miles of the journey. That maximises use of electric and mininises both fossil fuel use and his costs. Once at journeys end he puts it on charge.

Mind you, even doing this routine his average mpg of fossil fuel for the whole trip just manages to match that he got in his big diesel engined predecessor to his PHEV.

Edited by Sparrow on 21/11/2021 at 11:17

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - mcb100
I’d suspect drivers would find a tachometer (rev counter) a little off-putting on a hybrid, since you’d see the ICE working at a higher engine speed than they’d normally utilise. It’s working best at peak torque, and held there by the CVT, to provide maximum efficiency.
Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - RichT54
I’d suspect drivers would find a tachometer (rev counter) a little off-putting on a hybrid, since you’d see the ICE working at a higher engine speed than they’d normally utilise. It’s working best at peak torque, and held there by the CVT, to provide maximum efficiency.

Yes, a tachometer would not be very useful. I've noticed since it's got a bit colder that when I start the Jazz the ICE starts immediately and runs at a very high tick-over for several minutes while I am manoeuvring very slowly out of the car park and out towards the main road. Once the engine has warmed up a bit, the engine revs drop, but still bear no relation to road speed.

However, a couple of weeks ago I decided to see what happens when you push the accelerator pedal to the floor while going up a fairly steep hill. The engine revs immediately jumped to a very high (and noisy) level, but as the car built up speed the transmission did about 4 or 5 simulated 'gear changes' with the engine revs dropping a bit at each 'change'. The transmission only has fixed ratio gears and there is no CVT belt & pulley system so the 'gear changes' can only be the system changing the ICE's revs in steps. I wonder if there is a practical reason for doing this or if it's just done for effect?

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - Mike H

However, a couple of weeks ago I decided to see what happens when you push the accelerator pedal to the floor while going up a fairly steep hill. The engine revs immediately jumped to a very high (and noisy) level, but as the car built up speed the transmission did about 4 or 5 simulated 'gear changes' with the engine revs dropping a bit at each 'change'. The transmission only has fixed ratio gears and there is no CVT belt & pulley system so the 'gear changes' can only be the system changing the ICE's revs in steps. I wonder if there is a practical reason for doing this or if it's just done for effect?

We have a CR-V hybrid which doesn't faff around with pretend gear changes. The engine revs just rise and fall like your Jazz, but the transmission just works seamlessly, which is actually one of the nicest features of the car. Can't imagine there is any technical reason for your "gear changes".

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - RichT54

We have a CR-V hybrid which doesn't faff around with pretend gear changes. The engine revs just rise and fall like your Jazz, but the transmission just works seamlessly, which is actually one of the nicest features of the car. Can't imagine there is any technical reason for your "gear changes".

Most of the time the Jazz doesn't faff around either. It was just on this one occasion where I kept my foot flat on the floor, going up hill for about a mile (which is something I don't normally do).

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - mcintosh

I don't drive a hybrid at the moment but I intend to get a hybrid as my next car.

I find one of the most baffling part of driving a hybrid is to interpret the HSI (Hybrid System Indicator) gauge. This example is from Toyota but all hybrids have similar HSI.

It replaces RPM gauge of traditional cars. It has 3 segments

  • PWR
  • ECO
  • CHG

Here is a stock picture of HSI

attachments.priuschat.com/attachment-files/2021/10...g

Sometimes there is separate screen showing whether motor assisting engine or not. But this post is about the HSI gauge only.

I observed few 1st person driving videos in YouTube. It felt to me like this:

  • CHR = car decelerating
  • ECO = car most maintaining a stable speed
  • PWR = car accelerating

[1] Why do we need a gauge for this? Drivers know when they are accelerating or decelerating and speedometer shows this already (speeding going down vs up).

It’s to do with engine efficiency. The Eco section is where the engine is most efficient. In Chg the engine is off and the battery is charging fron braking. Pwr is the least efficient section and to be avoided if you care about MPG.

[2] The needle goes to PWR mode even car is making normal acceleration - in non-hybrid cars it would be redline zone if comparing with HSI gauge. Does it mean engine is redlining in hybrid too?


I doubt it, unless you’re at the very top of the Pwr range.

Or in a CVT (for all Toyota hybrids) engine RPM is always kept to a limited range and gear ratio is varied instead?



A bit of both. When you accelerate, the gear ratio drops and revs increase until you’re up to speed and take your foot off the gas.

At low speeds the car will switch to EV mode to avoid running the engine, so there is a lower limit on engine speed.

[3] Can one figure out whether engine is on or off by looking at HSI alone?

If it’s in the Chg region then the engine is off.

[4] Although there is no RPM marking, can this gauge be used to figure out relative RPM based on whether needle is up or down?

No idea.

Majority of hybrid drivers pay no attention to HSI but I believe as car nerds, we should do :-


Actually I think most hybrid drivers do pay attention to it. I certainly do.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - mcintosh

The Toyota Corolla hybrid has a conventional rev counter, unlike the Auris, which had an HSI similar to the Prius.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - badbusdriver

Yes, a tachometer would not be very useful. I've noticed since it's got a bit colder that when I start the Jazz the ICE starts immediately and runs at a very high tick-over for several minutes while I am manoeuvring very slowly out of the car park and out towards the main road. Once the engine has warmed up a bit, the engine revs drop, but still bear no relation to road speed.

However, a couple of weeks ago I decided to see what happens when you push the accelerator pedal to the floor while going up a fairly steep hill. The engine revs immediately jumped to a very high (and noisy) level, but as the car built up speed the transmission did about 4 or 5 simulated 'gear changes' with the engine revs dropping a bit at each 'change'. The transmission only has fixed ratio gears and there is no CVT belt & pulley system so the 'gear changes' can only be the system changing the ICE's revs in steps. I wonder if there is a practical reason for doing this or if it's just done for effect?

We had a Jazz CVT and that also had no fixed gears. But the CVT is programmed to behave and sound like a DCT or a quick witted T/C auto. My assumption for the reason is to try and appease the CVT haters (mainly motoring journo's and folk who haven't actually driven a decent one) who go on about the 'mooing' noise on a traditional CVT, presumably the same would apply to your hybrid.

But ours was also surprisingly rapid if the throttle was floored and certainly dispelled the 'all noise and no action' labels from CVT haters. When we got the car, I was a little wary the first time a overtook a truck on a single carriageway road, but I needn't have been!.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - moward

My Mrs CHR hybrid has this gauge. I don't really find it to be particularly useful to be honest. It probably exists only to fill in that portion of the instrument cluster that would be used for the tachometer in a non hybrid version of the same car.

ECO I think just means when the hybrid system is operating as intended with the ICE being used intermittently to top up the battery. PWR is when the ICE is assisting the electric motor to provide drive to the wheels. and CHG is when the system is regenerating electricity, under deceleration or coasting down a hill for example.

To answer your questions,

1. I see it being similar to Rolls Royce power reserve meter, showing how much left its got to give.

2. Engine has a number of RPM steps that it will rev to depending on what the current power demand is. Unfortunately I cant tell what the equivalent RPM are (relying on aural feedback to ascertain). ICE redlines only when maximum power is called for (revving past the point of peak torque causes a loss in energy efficiency which the hybrid system tries to avoid).

3. Not really. In the PWR band, ICE is usually on helping to provide tractive effort (but also might not be). in the ECO band, it could either on or off at any given time.

4. Yes I think so, certainly seems to from my observation.

I've found in practice that the best thing is to just get in and drive and pay little heed to what the ICE is doing. Its primary function in the system is to work as a generator, with occasional tractive assistance. Just concentrating on accelerating and decelerating gently and leaving the system to its own devices yields the best results.

For the car nerds like ourselves, the power flows between ICE, battery and drivetrain can be displayed on the centre screen or on instrument cluster.

If there's anything else you would like to know about our experience of running a hybrid, please feel free to ask below,

Regards,

M

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - sammy1

"""I've found in practice that the best thing is to just get in and drive and pay little heed to what the ICE is doing. Its primary function in the system is to work as a generator, with occasional tractive assistance. Just concentrating on accelerating and decelerating gently and leaving the system to its own devices yields the best results.""

Sounds like driving an ICE on the famous economy runs to extract the maximum MPG. But what is really happening to the hybrid system when driven in a typical spirited way. i.e. foot down and hard braking? Can you tell if the battery will still give you a good range or is it helping the ICE to achieve good performance or indeed is the battery not playing a part but saving itself for little right foot input?

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - movilogo

PWR is when the ICE is assisting the electric motor

Does the motor ever stop? I mean even when ICE is running, does the motor continue to run? What if there is not enough battery power remaining to run the motor and engine is not running fast enough to generate electricity to keep motor revving?

I was under the impression that primary propulsion in hybrids is via ICE and motor is to assist the engine.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - moward

This depends on the manufacturer to be honest.

For Toyota, electric is the primary system with ICE assistance. MG2 is connected directly to the final drive, so if the vehicle is moving, MG2 is working. The ICE and MG1 are connected thru a planetary gear set, its the combined output from these two sources that feed thru to the final drive. The rpm of MG1 controls the rpm of the ICE. MG1 can also bleed off excess energy from the ICE and feed it either directly to MG2, or back to the battery for later.

For mild hybrid systems, for example like what Suzuki use, I would agree that the ICE is the primary mode of propulsion with electrical assistance on top.

I guess an easy distinction is if the system can drive under electric power alone, then its an electric primary, if it cant, then its an ICE primary, although this might be over simplifying it a bit.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - moward

When I said gentle acceleration and deceleration, I didn't mean in an exaggerated fashion, just simply using good observation and driving to the conditions is plenty enough.

Electric is the primary means of propulsion. Motor Generator 2 is connected directly to the final drive. If the vehicle is moving, MG2 is working, either drawing charge from the battery, or returning it. Driving hard will exhaust the battery quicker and force the ICE to kick in sooner to top it up. Likewise there's a maximum rate at which the battery can accept charge, braking harder than this causes the hydraulic brakes to kick in, which wastes that kinetic energy as heat.

Basically if one drives 'spiritedly' they can expect to achieve lower mpg than they might get otherwise, but then this is true for any vehicle type.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - movilogo

This is an interesting animation of how the Toyota hybrid system works.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFVd_fCiO88

The ICE assists motor as and when necessary. And when ICE fires, it runs within a narrow (optimum) RPM range.

It there is no battery power to run the motor, the ICE can alone propel the car as well.

Edited by movilogo on 21/11/2021 at 13:02

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - mcb100
A friend used to provide driver training for Toyota, coaching how to get the best economy from the hybrid range.
The preferred method was to accelerate reasonably briskly up to 30, then off the accelerator in order to shut down the ICE, before using just enough pedal movement to keep the car running on the electric as much as possible.
Over a ‘lap’ of a few miles, he could get around more quickly (within the speed limit) and get better economy, than someone driving like Miss Daisy.
Maintaining momentum, as in any car, is key - not having to accelerate as much back up to speed.

Edited by mcb100 on 21/11/2021 at 13:36

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - De Sisti
Maintaining momentum, as in any car, is key - not having to accelerate as much back up to speed.

Many drivers don't realise this; as they accelerate hard up to traffic lights and stop, whilst the more attentive driver will take their foot off the accelerator and coast/slow down, in anticipation of lights changing, so maintaining momentum.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - sammy1

A lot of the content here about hybrids seems to relate to getting the maximum "mpg" out of the system. Why spend big money upwards of £40k you will never get the money back in fuel saved let alone the depreciation. Most people buy cars to enjoy them not looking if the car is in a certain mode for economy. It is like the light on a dash that advises you to change gear as in some ICE cars. Yes I do appreciate the pollution savings in built up areas but most of pollution has happened somewhere else when the car was made.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - Terry W

Most eople buy cars because they need a car. Enjoyment for most is either secondary or a function of cost, reliability, brand perceptions etc.

Getting maximun MPG or miles per KWH is not about cost saving (it may be for some) but a simple "game" played to get the best score. Like getting maximum points on "shoot 'em up" or doing your standard daily jog a couple of seconds faster. No one else cares!

Enjoyment is different for different folk. For some it is driving to the max, subject only to speedcams. For others the goal may be smoothness - having passengers sleep whilst I am driving confirms my personal belief in qualities of anticipation, judgement, reading the road.

That one mode uses a lot more fuel is unimportant. The difference between ~40 and ~50 mpg may be just £5 a week - less than the cost of two coffees or a pnt of beer.

Demystifying Hybrid System Indicator - movilogo

Why spend big money upwards of £40k you will never get the money back in fuel saved let alone the depreciation.

Most people buy cars because they need a car. Enjoyment for most is either secondary or a function of cost, reliability, brand perceptions etc.

I think both of these statements are true. Sometimes a car is utility, other times an enjoyment device.

I am conscious about fuel economy, yet at times I rev high to enjoy the thrill of driving.

Human minds don't always follow logic. Many decisions are governed by emotion.

Hence, buying an expensive car to save some money on fuel is often an irrational decision.