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Electric - £4'500 Bill - HGV ~ P Valentine

Below is the link which fully explains why electric cars are a bad idea ..

Electric car drivers warned of battery mistakes that could land them £4,500 bill (msn.com)

As one of the customers I del to also confirmed the batteries in new electric cars are usually only guaranteed for 5 years, and, unlike diesel or petrol, if you do run out of juice then you have to wait for the recovery vehicle.

This is JUST THE COST OF THE BATTERIES, and they still have no way of recycling the batteries once they are no good, so not even eco friendly as the media would have you believe.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - madf

Below is the link which fully explains why electric cars are a bad idea ..

Electric car drivers warned of battery mistakes that could land them £4,500 bill (msn.com)

As one of the customers I del to also confirmed the batteries in new electric cars are usually only guaranteed for 5 years, and, unlike diesel or petrol, if you do run out of juice then you have to wait for the recovery vehicle.

This is JUST THE COST OF THE BATTERIES, and they still have no way of recycling the batteries once they are no good, so not even eco friendly as the media would have you believe.

Typical Daily Mirror under-researched rubbish.

See tinyurl.com/265by3at for recycling.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Wee Willie Winkie

So many inaccuracies.

Tesla and VW warranty their batteries for 8 years, not 5. I'm sure others have similar warranties, so maybe your customer is as misinformed as you seem to be.

Recycling for 'spent' batteries iis in place.

I could go on...

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bolt

Recycling for 'spent' batteries iis in place.

Possibly now, but how long before it gets to the point they cannot all be recycled due to volume of batteries and processing plants.

if its anything like plastic is at the moment there is so much plastic we cannot process all of it, so its shipped off elsewhere

It has also been said that not all motors will be able to be totally battery powered and although some need batteries will mainly be hydrogen powered

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

So many inaccuracies.

Tesla and VW warranty their batteries for 8 years, not 5. I'm sure others have similar warranties, so maybe your customer is as misinformed as you seem to be.

Recycling for 'spent' batteries iis in place.

I could go on...

True, but most poorer people would still be buying (forced to, if the greenies get their way, and they seem to be) such cars just when the battery packs are on their last legs, which means either it is pure luck if they don't expire - making the car essentially scrap or worthless to them, or they shell out huge sums to get it back on the road - likely many times more than the value of the car when bought.

I mean, who'd buy such a car? Fellow poorer people wouldn't - for the same reason the owner won't likely pump several £0000 more into it to buy a new battery pack (assuming they have the money to at all - unlikely), and more well-off people don't buy 10+ year old cars unless they are 'special', which EVs aren't.

The other thing is that because the batteries when well over the warranty period give far less vehicle range, this is obviously a big problem. Not sure if its due to the batteries taking less charge or self-discharging more, but if its the latter, then that would mean they are a lot more wasteful in terms of electricity costs.

Recycling batteries is quite an energy and labour intensive process as well.

Once these issues are really widely known by those potential buyers, I suspect the depreciation of such EVs will increase quite a bit. The problem is that the sales speil about batteries lasting very well mainly comes from (IMHO) biased 'research' based on astronomical annual mileages done in sunny California, not by Joe Normie doing under 10,000 miles pa in cold and wet Britain.

EVs and its associated tech has, in my view, a LONG way to go before being a viable solution for people on average and below incomes.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - mcb100
Utter nonsense.
Typically, it’s an 8 year warranty on EV batteries. After that, because the batteries are cellular, if a cell were to fail, it’d be a case of replacing an individual cell rather than the whole power pack.
Evidence from high mileage Teslas is showing that batteries are good for 300,000 miles before significant degradation, so they’ll outlive the rest of the car.
If the battery itself isn’t repurposed, the constituents components can be - cobalt can be extracted from lithium ion batteries, unlike its single use when used in the refining of fossil fuels.
Electric - £4'500 Bill - brum
Utter nonsense. Typically, it’s an 8 year warranty on EV batteries. After that, because the batteries are cellular, if a cell were to fail, it’d be a case of replacing an individual cell rather than the whole power pack. E

Take a look here and maybe rethink your comment

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NoD4jzdReNo

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wamu0hyngU

Electric - £4'500 Bill - mcb100
Thanks, but I’m fine.
Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy
Utter nonsense. Typically, it’s an 8 year warranty on EV batteries. After that, because the batteries are cellular, if a cell were to fail, it’d be a case of replacing an individual cell rather than the whole power pack. E

Take a look here and maybe rethink your comment

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NoD4jzdReNo

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wamu0hyngU

It certainly like replacing a pair of Duracells in a remote control...not even in the same league, let alone ballpark.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Will deBeast

Kia covers the components of the EV and Hybrid vehicles for unlimited mileage up to 36 months, and for 100,000 miles between 37 and 84 months, from the date of first registration.

This specifically covers the following items not fitted to our standard car range:

Electric Vehicle (EV) System

Electric Motor

Gear Drive Unit

Battery Pack

Electric Power Control Unit (EPCU)

On Board Charger (OBC)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bromptonaut

How does that compare with a new engine if the cambelt lets go in an ICE car.

As others say warranties are longer than suggested and what is the real world probability of EVER needing to replace a whole battery?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

The problem is when they get to well over 10 years old (and not used as a California Uber taxi doing 100k miles pa in the sunshine) the reliability and output of rechargeable batteries gets quite a bit worse and can be highly variable.

That means the risk of a major failure - even, (as you say) a complete pack failure is probably uncommon, the combination of poor range, old batteries on their way out generally and a percentage that actually die mean that the owner may be recommended to replace them all.

I've been told on many occasions by those in the know that mixing and matching brand new and very old batteries is bad, because it puts undue strain on the new ones, reducing their lifespan.

Whilst in and ICE car an unexpected cambelt failure will almost certainly cause several £0000 of engine damage, if it was changed on schedule, there may be a legitimate claim from the manufacture for a manufacturing defect, whether of the belt itself or some other part (if, say, it's during that 6 year 'manufacturing/design defect' period often spoken of).

I suppose that's why it is often strongly recommended for owners to change parts like that well before the manufacturers' designated time (rather than on) to avoid any potential problems.

With EV batteries, like a lot of electrical equipment, it is more difficult to know when they are going to pack up or go downhill far quicker than the previous rate. I've had rechargeable batteries from the same pack used in the same device, starting out with nigh on identical outputs fail years apart for no good reason.

With mechanical parts, they tend to wear/fail in a more predictable way based on usage. I think that's the main benfit of ICE - costs are far more predictable (even more so if the usage pattern of previous owners is reasonably known, not just the mileage) and spread out if preventative maintenance is carried out throught the car's life, whereas EV's costs tend to come in very big lumps and when the latest owner can least afford them.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

MSN is complete garbage. Symptomatic of those who are so convinced that EV is flawed they cling to any peice of selective evidence to prove a point.

ICE engines have been known to fail well before 5 years are up - the cost of replacement can comfortably be north of £5k.

The reality is that a major failure is plausible on any vehicle costing £20k++ new. Owners can improve their chances by driving and using it appropriately. Numpties can easily destroy them through their own stupidity!

Electric - £4'500 Bill - JonestHon

A very useful add-ons to block specific web sites on demand are plenty for Windows and Mobiles.

I block MSN, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, the Sun, The Star, Facebook etc'

It's not just the sloppy bot driven journalism these outfits are party to, it's the alternative reality they load into their content. Caveat emptor. I wish there was an add-on that will read the articles in the DM/MSN/AOL etc' and report a count of how many errors/mistruths etc' before people decide to read it.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Steveieb

Watching a recent Rip off Britain programme about repairs to EVs it appears that Main dealers are particularly uninformed on repairing these vehicles. And just swap major components.

A Zoe owner was charged £5k for a repair to a control system on her five year old car and a Citroen owner £9 k until she had it shipped to a specialist centre in Cheltenham who fault find down to component level and they charged £1200 .

Electric - £4'500 Bill - pd

When there are lots of 10-15 year old EVs about it will be just like 10-15 year old cars now - there will be nice ones, and there will be knackered horrible ones.

EV batteries do not tend to fail over night. They degrade slowly in a progressive manner. It is already pretty easy to tell the approx condition of the battery simply by charging it up and looking at the range.

I saw a 63-plate Leaf go through an auction last week with 165k miles on the clock and 8/10 battery condition bars showing!

As for repairs as they all get older a 3rd party trade will develop fixing them just as there is now. Owners of 13 year old EVs will not be taking them to main dealers. Companies like BBA and ACTronics will be remanufacturing bits just as they do now.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

"""I block MSN, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, the Sun, The Star, Facebook etc'""

What a sheltered life. I am happy to read almost anything and make up my own mind about its content. The above post from Steveieb is very informative but a lot on here is rubbish, but the more you read from posts the better picture you form of cars in general.

Going off cars the push by Gov makes you perhaps think that heat pumps are the bees knees but most opinion is that they seem to be far from it and very expensive to buy and run.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Sofa Spud

The Nissan Leaf has been around since 2010 and many of them are still on their original batteries. Some have done over 200,000 miles on those batteries.

The early Leafs didn't have much range and that would have degraded further over time but from what I gather they still make a good runabout car.

The battery recycling industry is ramping up in readiness for end-of-life EVs that will become a reality in the next few years. Currently it's mostly wrecked EVs that get scrapped and there's a market for the electrical bits, including for conversions of petrol or diesel cars.

Degraded batteries that are no longer up to powering cars can still be placed in static battery banks for use as energy storage, giving a few more useful years before they finally go for recycling.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 28/10/2021 at 16:05

Electric - £4'500 Bill - bathtub tom
Currently it's mostly wrecked EVs that get scrapped and there's a market for the electrical bits, including for conversions of petrol or diesel cars.

Saw a Wheeler Dealers TV program, which a guy (in America) seemed to have built up a business buying scrapped Teslas and re-using the components to convert old American muscle cars (sob).

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bolt

Watching a recent Rip off Britain programme about repairs to EVs it appears that Main dealers are particularly uninformed on repairing these vehicles. And just swap major components.

A Zoe owner was charged £5k for a repair to a control system on her five year old car and a Citroen owner £9 k until she had it shipped to a specialist centre in Cheltenham who fault find down to component level and they charged £1200 .

Probably not so much uninformed as not having the capabilities to repair these units, and as most are getting smaller and integrated into microchips, ie several circuits put into one, they will need specialist companies to repair them

and as processors get more compact the less capability of repairing circuits with only connectors being repairable, which will come as they are saving weight and time in repairs

Electric - £4'500 Bill - movilogo

"""I block MSN, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, the Sun, The Star, Facebook etc'""

What a sheltered life

Like I won't eat from bin, I won't feed my brain trash either.

Majority of the above sites are trash (but that's individual opinion) so I give those wide berth too. Having said that, I tend to read Daily Mail.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

By all means read a range of opinions and form your own.

But the only consistently reliable source of objective news is the Financial Times - the reason being that accurate other news is a pre-requisite for making the right decisions about money.

The rest is, to a greater or lesser extent, selective and skewed depending on editorial policy - or lacking in the case of Facebook etc.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - focussed

And where do you think the Financial Times gets it's news feed from?

The same source as just about everybody else.

Four global news agencies, Agence France-Presse (AFP), Associated Press (AP), Reuters and United Press International (UPI) have offices in most countries of the world, cover all areas of information, and provide the majority of international news printed by the world's newspapers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency

It's just the particular spin that each individual newspaper puts on the raw news to suit their target audience that marks out the newspaper you like!

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

And where do you think the Financial Times gets it's news feed from?

The same source as just about everybody else.

Four global news agencies, Agence France-Presse (AFP), Associated Press (AP), Reuters and United Press International (UPI) have offices in most countries of the world, cover all areas of information, and provide the majority of international news printed by the world's newspapers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_agency

It's just the particular spin that each individual newspaper puts on the raw news to suit their target audience that marks out the newspaper you like!

You could also say that the 'news reporting' is thus relying on very few 'sources' that more often than many people would like to admit are questioned as to the voracity/accuracy or truthfullness. Relying on one single original source is a bad way to go about life - whether that's new reporting, science/engineering or anything else.

As proven many times, e.g. a certain 'story' from 2020 involving a young student wearing a baseball cap and a Native American protestor. Many outelts round the world, including practically all UK ones (on both sides of the political aisle) just regurgitated what certain US outelts 'reported' - noting that they later on (after the damage was done) changed their articles, and settled out of court (supposedly for a LOT of money) with the young student after he sued them.

Today's legacy media is, in my view, far less competent / trustworthy than it was 20-30 years ago, which is saying something, given what many were up to back then.

That's why many people - myself included - do they own research (investigations) into issues. I take what most media outlets say with a pinch of salt.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - misar

That's why many people - myself included - do they own research (investigations) into issues. I take what most media outlets say with a pinch of salt...

.. and believe everything I find on social media as long as it fits my prejudices.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Brit_in_Germany

>As proven many times, e.g. a certain 'story' from 2020 involving a young student wearing a baseball cap and a Native American protestor. Many outelts round the world, including practically all UK ones (on both sides of the political aisle) just regurgitated what certain US outelts 'reported' - noting that they later on (after the damage was done) changed their articles, and settled out of court (supposedly for a LOT of money) with the young student after he sued them

You do realize that this story (2019, actually) arose through people misusing social media to give a false impression of events?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bromptonaut

Majority of the above sites are trash (but that's individual opinion) so I give those wide berth too. Having said that, I tend to read Daily Mail.

Blast it, my irony meter has just bent itself on the end stop :-)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Steveieb

Anyone considering buying an electric car should maybe watch this evenings Channel 4 Dispatches report from the DR Congo.

As one of the worlds richest sources of cobalt it should bring wealth. But child labour and pollution from the mines has resulted in polluted rivers and water supplies resulting in deformed children who are often born with enlarged heads.

A truly horrendous outcome resulting in the demand for cobalt which is used in electric car batteries and other tech products.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

The issue is related to the appalling treatment of workers in many third world economies, and the environmental standards adopted by mining companies.

It is not a reason to criticise transition to EV.

Whether decent environmental standards and employee conditions would increase the price of cobalt such as to make EV unaffordable is a different matter. I suspect not!.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

""

The issue is related to the appalling treatment of workers in many third world economies, and the environmental standards adopted by mining companies.

It is not a reason to criticise transition to EV."""

Why not? As it not always been the case since the start of the industrial revolution to mine resources and leave behind large masses of spoil and damaged human beings scratching a living for large manufacturers to make a profit. In this the 21st century it is time that lessons of the past stopped this exploitation and a fair price was paid for the product. A fat lot of good worrying about climate change while all this is still going on.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bromptonaut

""

A fat lot of good worrying about climate change while all this is still going on.

Yeah, the rising oceans will wash the spoil and damaged human beings away...

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bolt

""

A fat lot of good worrying about climate change while all this is still going on.

Yeah, the rising oceans will wash the spoil and damaged human beings away...

Its surprising how much scaremongering is going on about climate change whether that comment was made in jest or not, along with so much this world will end soon and all that, would be nice if people grew up

The world has been through a lot worse than we will ever throw at it.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - alan1302

""

A fat lot of good worrying about climate change while all this is still going on.

Yeah, the rising oceans will wash the spoil and damaged human beings away...

Its surprising how much scaremongering is going on about climate change whether that comment was made in jest or not, along with so much this world will end soon and all that, would be nice if people grew up

The world has been through a lot worse than we will ever throw at it.

It's also surprising the amount of people who think that humans are not messing with the worlds climate despite all the proof and happy to sit back and do nothing about it and try and make out all is ok.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bolt

It's also surprising the amount of people who think that humans are not messing with the worlds climate despite all the proof and happy to sit back and do nothing about it and try and make out all is ok.

If your convinced of that then fair enough, NOT- disputing the fact climate change is happening, it`s just its taken 50 years before anyone thinks about it, then its all panic.

because it was disputed by many people years ago, who or what caused it doesn`t matter now, point is are we able to sort it, which is almost impossible to answer unless you have a crystal ball

and we are messing with the planet regardless of what we do, including mining for what we need, so whichever way you look at it we will mess with the planet for a long time to come....

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Steveieb

Maybe watch the Unreported World programme which was shown last night before commenting and committing to join the rush to impress the neighbours with your environmental credentials.

Not only the appalling working conditions of children lowered down the shafts on ropes tied together but the epidimiogical damage to the surrounding population of rivers polluted with Cobalt and cobalt dust covering everything that is grown.

But to see the damaged children born to workers and villagers is truly heartbreaking . The most common birth defect is enlarged heads and the only function the children have is to take food. Leaving the mothers abandoned in their teens to care for their deformed child for the rest of their lives.

My family were involved with mining last century but they weren’t dealing with a product anywhere as toxic as cobalt.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - De Sisti

Watching a recent Rip off Britain programme about repairs to EVs it appears that Main dealers are particularly uninformed on repairing these vehicles. And just swap major components.

A Zoe owner was charged £5k for a repair to a control system on her five year old car and a Citroen owner £9 k until she had it shipped to a specialist centre in Cheltenham who fault find down to component level and they charged £1200 .

So the Citroen owner paid £9k and then another £1200 to have the same fault fixed by two different garages?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Steveieb

Not exactly . The Citroen owner was quoted £5500 to replace a motor control unit but when the main dealer found that this didn’t fix the fault he then asked for another £4000 to replace another major component.

At this point the owner withdrew the car and had it transported down to Cheltenham where the EV specialist who fault find down to component level and charged £1200.

Exactly the same with Mr Patel in my town Northampton who maintains most of the Prius Taxis. He buys up all the damaged Prius and removes all the useable parts which he then fits to other vehicles.

His knowledge is often called upon by Main Dealers who don’t have the experience with cars out of warranty and have stacked up high mileages.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Steveieb

It was Cleevely EV s in Cheltenam that sorted the car. They have really good reviews but some way to travel for some

Electric - £4'500 Bill - pete beagles

After 9 years, the replacement hybrid battery on my BMW cost 7k, Boy that was a shock!

Batteries simply do not last forever, so it's a good idea to factor in a replacement, when considering long term ownership.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

After 9 years, the replacement hybrid battery on my BMW cost 7k, Boy that was a shock!

Batteries simply do not last forever, so it's a good idea to factor in a replacement, when considering long term ownership.

Gasp! who would buy a new hybrid as a keeper and worse a 5year old one say. Ok if you could drive it on the ICE only but what is the point? Who would buy a complicated 9 year old car?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

Any car that is 9+ year old with (possibly) 100k + on the clock is a mobile financial catastrophe waiting to happen. You buy one (a) because it is affordable/cheap, and (b) in the knowledge there is a risk.

The only real difference between ICE and EV is that ICE replacements can be sourced used but EV components (mostly) cannot. This is a short term problem - in a few years as designs stabilise and volumes increase, second hand components will be incrreasingly available.

Bleating about how ordinary people cannot afford EV is similarly a nonsense. Most folk buy and run second hand cars as they cannot afford new whether ICE or EV. As new EV sales increase, the second hand market will develop - simply lagging new sales by ~3 years.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - bathtub tom
The only real difference between ICE and EV is that ICE replacements can be sourced used but EV components (mostly) cannot.

There's at least one company who are converting old classics to EVs, using (I presume) crashed Tesla parts.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - badbusdriver

Watched a Fully Charged video on YouTube recently where Robert Llewellyn went to see an EV specialist because he was thinking about replacing the (worn out) battery on his 10 year old Leaf which, other than the range, still worked perfectly. The specialist gets the batteries from a company in the Netherlands who in turn took them out of Leaf's which had been crashed but who's batteries were undamaged. The battery Rob was looking at is the 40kWh rather than 24kWh which his Leaf had originally (direct swap apparently) and the cost would be £8.5k all in. Which sounds like a lot of money, but on a car which has cost virtually nothing to run over a decade, in relation to the cost of a new replacement car, maybe not too bad?.

Presumably the BMW hybrid battery mentioned was a brand new replacement from BMW?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

I wonder whether that specialist would guarantee their salvaged parts for a decent amount of time? Probably not anywhere near the original (battery) warranty I suspect.

I think that the only way EV cars are ever going to be worth buying when over 7-10 years old if when the batteries and many other parts are standardised, rather like modern-day PCs, whereby you choose the case and the components from a list and someone builds it for you.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - badbusdriver

I wonder whether that specialist would guarantee their salvaged parts for a decent amount of time? Probably not anywhere near the original (battery) warranty I suspect.

No mention of warranty on the specialists (Cleevely electric vehicles) website, but the website for the Dutch company (Muxsan) supplying the batteries says it guarantees the battery to retain 90% capacity for 2 years or 30k miles (whichever comes first)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

Second hand parts, whether ICE or EV, will only ever be warranted for a few thousand miles or a few months from a decent s/h component supplier. With many I suspect the warranty is often difficult or impossible to enforce.

There is no reason why batteries or electric motors should be any more vulnerable to sudden failure than ICE components - in many ways less so as there are far fewer wear components.

The difference - batteries will suffer gradual "chemical" degradation whereas engines, gearboxes, fuel injectiion systems are more likely to suffer catastrophic failure. Turbos, injection pumps, main bearings etc (for instance) do not generally fail slowly!

Electric - £4'500 Bill - bathtub tom

I also understand some companies are replacing single cells in batteries.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

I wonder whether that specialist would guarantee their salvaged parts for a decent amount of time? Probably not anywhere near the original (battery) warranty I suspect.

No mention of warranty on the specialists (Cleevely electric vehicles) website, but the website for the Dutch company (Muxsan) supplying the batteries says it guarantees the battery to retain 90% capacity for 2 years or 30k miles (whichever comes first)

For me at least, having such a short guarantee would not tempt me to part with my cash, given the potential cost of replacing the batteries should they suddenly fail after that period. Normally a warranty/guarantee period is generally indicative of how long the provider thinks they can still make a profit because the parts will last.

For me, this is still the biggest downside of EVs over ICE - if well-maintained, ICE cars will rarely need 4-figure spending (and certainly not in the range of £4.5k in one go), spreading out the cost of wear-and-tear/life-expired maintenance over many years.

I'm still surprised at why the depreciation of EVs after the 5 year mark isn't huge, given the longer it goes on without a full battery pack replacement (similar could be said for the electric motors [noting that electrically-driven water pumps tend to last on average about 15 years), the higher the chance of a complete failure or the range dropping to such a low point that the car is useless.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - badbusdriver

For me at least, having such a short guarantee would not tempt me to part with my cash, given the potential cost of replacing the batteries should they suddenly fail after that period. Normally a warranty/guarantee period is generally indicative of how long the provider thinks they can still make a profit because the parts will last.

If you buy a brand new RangeRover, which could easily cost well over £100k, it will come with a 3 year warranty. So by comparison, for Muxsan to offer a 2 year warranty on what is essentially a 2nd hand battery is (IMO) very generous.

While there are course no absolutes, Nissan have been making EV's for a long time now, the battery technology is well proven and very reliable. The only real issue is degradation, which would also happen if you were to buy a new replacement battery from Nissan (and how much would that cost for a 40kWh?, £20k?) Personally, the only issue I would be wrestling with is whether or not spending that much money on a (up to) 10 year old Leaf would be a good investment.

For me, this is still the biggest downside of EVs over ICE - if well-maintained, ICE cars will rarely need 4-figure spending (and certainly not in the range of £4.5k in one go), spreading out the cost of wear-and-tear/life-expired maintenance over many years.

Doing some rough 'man maths', had I been running a Nissan e-NV200 van over a ten year period and decided to invest in a refurbished 40kWh battery, I reckon I'd probably still be £3-4k up on the running costs of my Caddy diesel over the same period. Granted the battery would have to be paid for in one go versus 'in instalments' for the Caddy running costs.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Miniman777

Having read some fascinating and interesting replies, for me and my circumstances, these crazy repair costs and other factors are a nail in the coffin of an early switch to EVs.

Let me explain.

Firstly is cost. EVs cost way way too much. I run an X3, 4 years old, which cost £54k new, value today £30k-ish. To swap to the equivalent EV would cost around £65k. It's not happening.

Neither am I downsizing to some small battery powered go-kart which hasn't the seat or boot capacity of the X3. As approaching my age of three score years and ten, and semi-retired, I simply don't have that kind of spare money to pour into a depreciating asset powered by new technology.

I've worked hard in my lifetime and want to spend my pension and savings how I wish, not be forced down a particular avenue. And yes I am aware of the environmental aspects, but I dont see Governments working to eradicate Euro 3, 4 and 5 diesels from towns and cities. Clean air zone charging moves the problem elsewhere.

These quotes of repair costs are crazy, and unless manufacturers provide a far longer warranty on major components (or a refurbishment/exchange plan), then the prospect of expensive repairs will turn many off switching to an EV. If they want to make people switch, then it's up to manufacturers to many components not only reliable, but replacements affordable.

Next, I cant get excited by the range aspect on EVs. 250-280 miles before having to stop for a re-charge doesn't suit my driving or many others.Worse on 1st and 2nd gen EVs.

I visit remote places (eg: was in N Wales yesterday), few chargers. Plus there is charger reliability which is another issue altogether.

I am not a fan of EV design either. Bland, boring front ends and a damn great LCD screen on the dash, ideal for those on their way to Specsavers? Internal design is carp too, horrible and unsubtle use of white, cream or brightly coloured plastics. No, no, no! Why move from being 'conventional'? Only Polestar seem to remain conventional.

So now consider all this with the fact our wonderful Government is making gas boilers obsolete. I am fortunate to know three heating engineers, and all say the proposed heat pumps are rubbish and hydrogen is the future. Many properties are unsuitable for heat pumps and have no place externally for the main component - plus, you will need to install a hot water tank!! WTF? This is going backwards.

They are big and cumbersome, dont generate they same level of heat for the radiators - and you'll probably need new radiators and larger bore piping, so a full swap will cost around £20k. One engineer said he was called out to a new house, the owner desperate to cut his heating costs as the heat pump was costing him £190 per month. That's nuts.

Just where is the money going to come from to fund the car swap for the man in the street to an EV AND a heat pump?

As a pensioner, (and many on here are), it simply isn't going to happen - not in the way Government anticipates.

I am certainly dont intend on going into debt (nor leave a debt legacy on my estate) to fund these new fangled requirements of modern life. Not at my age.

Dont get me wrong. I love tech - I use a Apple computer, phone, iPad, watch, have a digital camera and lenses that would cost £6k to buy today, a drone, do electronic banking and more. But EV's dont quite cut it IMO, and neither do heat pumps.

Am I a bit of Dinosaur when it comes to EVs? You bet I am - (and I'm not Mike Rutherford under a pseudonym !!!)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - alan1302

Am I a bit of Dinosaur when it comes to EVs? You bet I am - (and I'm not Mike Rutherford under a pseudonym !!!)

I just think you are a realist - EV's for a lot of people just are not suitable at the moment. They are developing very rapidly but are not there yet.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

For me at least, having such a short guarantee would not tempt me to part with my cash, given the potential cost of replacing the batteries should they suddenly fail after that period. Normally a warranty/guarantee period is generally indicative of how long the provider thinks they can still make a profit because the parts will last.

If you buy a brand new RangeRover, which could easily cost well over £100k, it will come with a 3 year warranty. So by comparison, for Muxsan to offer a 2 year warranty on what is essentially a 2nd hand battery is (IMO) very generous.

True, thought this issue raised here is geared towards people buying cars that are 7, 10 and perhaps a lot older, where the cost of purchasing the car (at least ICE ones) is normally in the £500 - £1500 range, hence why a failed battery pack just out of a 2yr warranty costing between 3x and 9x the car's worth would mean it would have to be either scrapped or sold for pennies, leaving that person (who could least afford to be) seriously out of pocket and unlikely to be able to afford a replacement vehicle.

While there are course no absolutes, Nissan have been making EV's for a long time now, the battery technology is well proven and very reliable. The only real issue is degradation, which would also happen if you were to buy a new replacement battery from Nissan (and how much would that cost for a 40kWh?, £20k?) Personally, the only issue I would be wrestling with is whether or not spending that much money on a (up to) 10 year old Leaf would be a good investment.

I wonder how long the electric motor lasts? They aren't cheap either (my car's electrically-powered PS hyraulic pump costs £700 last time I checked), and thus as the car ages, the likelihood of it failing gets higher and higher. This is where the use of standarised parts and, where possible, a modular design (to avoid the need for a complete unit replacement) would come in handy to reduce the cost of ownership as EVs get older.

The problem is that modern-day electronics is going the opposite way - making things 'all-in-one' to reduce initial manufacturing costs for the new equipment. It's why most home electronics are not worth repairing once they reach 7-10 years old, because other components are likely to fail within 2-5 years, with the overal cost more than buying a complete new unit.

For me, this is still the biggest downside of EVs over ICE - if well-maintained, ICE cars will rarely need 4-figure spending (and certainly not in the range of £4.5k in one go), spreading out the cost of wear-and-tear/life-expired maintenance over many years.

Doing some rough 'man maths', had I been running a Nissan e-NV200 van over a ten year period and decided to invest in a refurbished 40kWh battery, I reckon I'd probably still be £3-4k up on the running costs of my Caddy diesel over the same period. Granted the battery would have to be paid for in one go versus 'in instalments' for the Caddy running costs.

From what I gather, EVs are at the best when you do large mileages, because of the big difference in 'fuel' costs. For people like me who often do low annual mileages, then it likely wouldn't be worth it - for the moment anyway.

If EV manufacturers can find a way of making money via parts replacements even when said vehicles are well over 10 years past the end of production (i.e. outside the requirement ICE cars are given to hold spares) without breaking the bank for customers who are obviously on a very tight budget, plus the battery charging/capacity issues we've discussed at length before, then that's when the big switchover would naturally occur.

At the moment, I'm not sure that is the case, not without significant taxpayer subsidy, which means we don't benefit, just those who can currently afford the cars.

A shame those in positions of power and influence don't appear to be having such conversations, rather virtue-signalling and pandering to various groups and often for the wrong reasons, ending up making bad decisions costing us a fortune and not doing much to 'save the planet', if at all.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

Channel 4 tonight 8.30 The truth about electric. might be worth a watch!

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

Channel 4 tonight 8.30 The truth about electric. might be worth a watch!

TBH their investigative journalism (I assumed you mean a 'Dispatches' show) is rather hit and miss - sometimes rather good, balanced and comprehensive, and other times, like many, it's just a rehash of what most people already know from newspaper reports, and occasionally, well, it wouldn't look out of place on the opinion pages of The Guardian newspaper.

I may well record it and judge later. Normally the 'headline' at the start of the programme is the best guide to what 'path' they go down, helping me decide whether it's worth continuing to watch or not.

I suspect they'll gloss over (or not even mention) many of the issues I and others have raised on this thread and others in the past, mainly because they aren't ones that generate lots of follow-up media attention.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

I watched the programme and I suppose it was quite informative for some. At the start it covered analysis of little know pollutants from ICE engines which at the moment are not the subject of any legislation. Basically it was saying that Hybrids can be more polluting than petrol or diesels from cold start. Next it covered EV chargers, shortage of, chargers not working and too many different types. It concluded with advice on charging which was try to keep the Battery on your EV between 80% and 20% to maximise its life and then went on to EV range with a 9 year old EV and a new MG. The conclusion on range the slower you go the further you go!

It did get me thinking with Hybrids that in cold weather perhaps there is the danger of the ICE not operating at optimum temperature if it is cutting on and off with the battery?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - RT

The conclusion on range the slower you go the further you go!

It doesn't need Einstein to work that out.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

On Autotrader search for cars registered before 2020 (representing the current s/h market) today there are 929 BEV + a further 2626 PHEV..

There are 347,000 s/h cars in total. Pure electric are approx 1 in 300. Including hybrids about 1 in 100.

It is no surprise there is no developed s/h market. Prices reflect scarcity as much as economic value. No effective support and servicing capability exists outside the OEMs.

Fast forward - over the next 10 years sales of ICE will reduced from the current ~80% of tthe market to probably ~20% (hybrids will still be on sale). The speed of transition is open to debate/opinion - but if there are still about 350k cars for sale on 2031 Autotrader, I expect 100-150k to be BEV or PHEV.

However convinced you may be today that EV is not feasible, by 2030 it will be. You will either need to change your views, accept that you will be left driving your ICE until it dies, or reluctantly accept the inevitable (however reluctantly).

Electric - £4'500 Bill - madf

One thing for sure about EVs is that anything you can buy today will be painfully and expensively obsolete by 2030.

Technology in electronics basically advances 10-100 times faster than mechanics.

It has taken the petrol car over 100 years to get to become a comfortable, non polluting vehicle which is reliable.

Electric car ranges have basically quadrupled form 2010 to 2021 (60 miles to 250+)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - sammy1

"""However convinced you may be today that EV is not feasible, by 2030 it will be. You will either need to change your views, accept that you will be left driving your ICE until it dies, or reluctantly accept the inevitable (however reluctantly)."""

I am not convinced. the roll out of chargers is not being driven hard enough and I cannot see most intelligent people buying into expensive electric or hybrid when out of warranty. As to his plans for the end of gas boilers the UK will need climate change to give us a Mediterranean climate as I am freezing my socks off already!

I do not think that Peppa Pig's favourite fan will be in the job much longer and we may see someone with more sensible longer term ideas. He has been bombed out on his tunnel or bridge to Ireland as if any body thought it was feasible and seems hopelessly lost with all his other plans. A very big disappointment to a lot of people who voted for him

Electric - £4'500 Bill - London calling

I can’t see how the secondhand ev market is going to develop, various reports suggest batteries will last between 10 & 20 years so who is going to buy a 10 year old ev with no idea how many years are left in the battery? and if they are not a viable buy what will happen to these cars? Battery price will eventually come down but they will still remain an expensive item.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Terry W

You may equally ask who would buy a 10+ year old ICE not knowing when the engine was going to seize, run its bearings, destroy its piston rings etc.

When major components on old cars fail the car either gets scrapped or fitted with second hand replacements. The same will be true of batteries and electric motors.

The difference - batteries tend to degrade gradually and electric motors have few moving parts. ICE is full of bearings and reciprocating parts, much more likely to fail suddenly, but with (currently) a developed repair and spares infrastructure.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Andrew-T

He has been bombed out on his tunnel or bridge to Ireland as if anybody thought it was feasible, and seems hopelessly lost with all his other plans. A very big disappointment to a lot of people who voted for him.

Of course I didn't vote directly for Boris, but I am not in the least disappointed, altho I did hope for a few months that he might grow out of his buffoon habits and take political life a bit more seriously. I am not surprised that he hasn't, so as far as that goes, I am not disappointed, merely sad that too many voters expected something better.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

The conclusion on range the slower you go the further you go!

It doesn't need Einstein to work that out.

We should all be buying milkfloats! :-)

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Engineer Andy

I watched the programme and I suppose it was quite informative for some. At the start it covered analysis of little know pollutants from ICE engines which at the moment are not the subject of any legislation. Basically it was saying that Hybrids can be more polluting than petrol or diesels from cold start. Next it covered EV chargers, shortage of, chargers not working and too many different types. It concluded with advice on charging which was try to keep the Battery on your EV between 80% and 20% to maximise its life and then went on to EV range with a 9 year old EV and a new MG. The conclusion on range the slower you go the further you go!

It did get me thinking with Hybrids that in cold weather perhaps there is the danger of the ICE not operating at optimum temperature if it is cutting on and off with the battery?

I haven't seen it yet, but when I set my PVR to record it, I noticed it was only a 30 min programme. To me, that's not long enough to properly go through all the issues associated with EVs.

Electric - £4'500 Bill - Bolt

It did get me thinking with Hybrids that in cold weather perhaps there is the danger of the ICE not operating at optimum temperature if it is cutting on and off with the battery?

I know the Prius engine has several electronic thermostats to control the heating of the engine, so it doesn`t get too cold over parts of the engine, if one section gets too cold while running the stat shuts coolant off until the temp is reached and then stat opens according to rest of engine, it keeps engine at optimum running temp which probably means once batteries are charged the electric generated runs the motor/s

Maybe other OEMs have done the same?

Electric - £4'500 Bill - mcb100
It doesn’t look that difficult or expensive to me…

fb.watch/9sITxhT9oz/

Apologies if you can’t see the video.