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Sun 11 Apr 2021 23:06

First Car Dilemma! - Elliot Payne

Hey Everyone,

I have an interesting dilemma on my hands, I am based in the UK and as we know insurance can be excruciatingly high. I've worked myself down to a few options, a Hyundai coupe 2l siii (with a black box), Toyota Celica (with black box) or a Suzuki swift sport (without a black box).

The insurance prices are the same for all three cars so do I bite the bullet and get myself something nice for 1 or 2 years until I can afford to take the black box off or do I purchase a Suzuki swift sport, while slower and less appealing I won't be monitored constantly and after a year sell it to buy something a bit faster and without a box again.

Any other suggestions would also be appreciated,

Thanks, Elliot

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:55

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 00:17

First Car Dilemma! - brum

My advice is never take insurance with a black box. Any bad behaviour they deem you guilty of however minor or generated by random software/hardware glitches coukd follow you round like a criminal record for years.You can bet they share your data even though they say no. Just like google pretend.

They will penalise you for driving behaviour they dont like, such as driving late at night or through the wrong areas. They keep tabs on exactly how far and where you drive. No privacy. And plenty of excuses to keep premiums high.

There may be a penalty/price to remove the black box too. Would put off many buyers when selling the car if its still installed. I wouldnt want to buy it.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:55

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 00:39

First Car Dilemma! - Elliot Payne

Thank you, after talking to some others it seems like a black box is a nightmare, do you have any suggestions of cars a 17 year old could take out as there first car?

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:56

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 07:02

First Car Dilemma! - S40 Man

I think patience is the way forward here. Buy something sensible with low insurance group for a couple of years until you get some decent NCB.

High premiums are due to 17-20 year olds having higher than average risk of accidents/claims. You might not think it applies to you but inexperience makes it more likely. If you drive a slightly faster car, like the ones you mention that will only increase the risk of an accidental and the cost/consequences of any accident.

I've never had a black box, but I have had phone app equivalents. If you put your mind to it you can get a very good score. It would just bore the pants off me to have it on constantly.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:57

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 07:56

First Car Dilemma! - Pablo el Diablo

And get a dash cam, even the cheapest as any claim against you would make your insurance x2 of what it would be now.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:57

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 08:14

First Car Dilemma! - nellyjak

Wouldn't go anywhere near a car with a black box..for all the reasons stated earlier (there's enough intrusion into our lives as it is)

I agree with S40 in that you'd be better off buying something "sensible" that doesn't have "sports" in the mix and be patient for a couple of years whilst your situation improves in terms of insurance premiums.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:57

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 08:16

First Car Dilemma! - Xileno

Welcome to the forum.

I definitely agree with the suggestion of getting something a bit more 'insurance friendly' to start with and build up some NCB. A two litre at 17 must be ruinous.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:58

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 10:54

First Car Dilemma! - galileo

Welcome to the forum.

I definitely agree with the suggestion of getting something a bit more 'insurance friendly' to start with and build up some NCB. A two litre at 17 must be ruinous.

I would also bet that if you got a 2 litre you would soon collect speeding fines and points, cameras are everywhere (including motorways) and observing speed limits everywhere, all the time, requires concentration and patience. Something with lower performance will therefore be easier to keep legal (and safer too)

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:58

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 11:49

First Car Dilemma! - brum

Its pretty tough for young drivers, not all are boy racers.The six point rule in first 2 years of passing that cancels your licence and having to retake the test etc is particularly harsh and imo very unfair.

Driving as a named driver for the first 2 or so years until you are older and more experienced can control cost but only if you can show you are definitely not the main driver. You can't own or be the reg keeper of the car and you must demonstratably do less miles than the main driver on the policy. Possibly not a viable option if you use the car to commute to work.

Remember - Always answer insurance company questions honestly and truthfully as lies can cost you very dearly.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:58

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 11:55

First Car Dilemma! - mcb100

I was looking over the weekend for cover for a newly-passed 18 year old on something like a £2500 Citroen C1 and getting quotes of £160 per month for cover. Anything with a higher group must be catastrophic in price.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:59

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 12:05

First Car Dilemma! - Andrew-T

I was looking over the weekend for cover for a newly-passed 18 year old on something like a £2500 Citroen C1 and getting quotes of £160 per month for cover. Anything with a higher group must be catastrophic in price.

While all the above is good advice, we should not forget that premiums will depend on which part of the UK you are in - we don't know yet ?

Best to start life on the road with a car which will not lead you into trouble, rather than one which you may imagine will help you get out of it.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:59

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 12:28

First Car Dilemma! - skidpan

do you have any suggestions of cars a 17 year old could take out as there first car?

Yes, anything but the 3 you are proposing.

Get something you can afford to throw away if the worst happens. Get something better when you can afford it and the insurance is more reasonable.

Its pretty certain you will have an incident, most 17 years old's do. I did, not my fault but no other party to claim off. A branch blew off a tree and dropped into the road, nearly stopped, tiny bit of damage to front scuttle. Left it as it was a when I sold the car never mentioned it, after all it was an £80 banger (1974). If I had bought a nice car as my first car it would have needed repairing and had I needed to claim off the insurance I would have been paying increased premiums for years.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:00

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 12:46

First Car Dilemma! - daveyjp

Not necessarily. The C1 is popular with new drivers because they think because its a low insurance group it will be cheap insure so they buy them, crash them and have lots of claims.

Car insurance group is actually more an assessment of how expensive a vehicle is to repair and the car value as after 3-4 years a fairly minor prang will write the car off so insurance companies are less exposed to paying for expensive repairs.

You may find a higher insurance group car which isn't popular with young drivers is cheaper to insure. As an example my wife's insurace was cheaper on her A class than it was on her Aygo.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 14:59

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 13:01

First Car Dilemma! - brum

Not necessarily. The C1 is popular with new drivers because they think because its a low insurance group it will be cheap insure so they buy them, crash them and have lots of claims.

Car insurance group is actually more an assessment of how expensive a vehicle is to repair and the car value as after 3-4 years a fairly minor prang will write the car off so insurance companies are less exposed to paying for expensive repairs.

You may find a higher insurance group car which isn't popular with young drivers is cheaper to insure. As an example my wife's insurace was cheaper on her A class than it was on her Aygo.

Cars that have AEB (autonomous emergency braking) and parking sensors have lower premiums, that may be the difference between the A class and Aygo

Insurance grouping is a both a risk and cost to repair rating. A group 20 car will almost be definitely have on average higher repair costs than a group 2 car. A mercedes A class will definitely cheapwr to repair than a A class, prang for prang.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:00

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 12:42

First Car Dilemma! - Engineer Andy

Hey Everyone,

I have an interesting dilemma on my hands, I am based in the UK and as we know insurance can be excruciatingly high. I've worked myself down to a few options, a Hyundai coupe 2l siii (with a black box), Toyota Celica (with black box) or a Suzuki swift sport (without a black box).

The insurance prices are the same for all three cars so do I bite the bullet and get myself something nice for 1 or 2 years until I can afford to take the black box off or do I purchase a Suzuki swift sport, while slower and less appealing I won't be monitored constantly and after a year sell it to buy something a bit faster and without a box again.

Any other suggestions would also be appreciated,

Thanks, Elliot

Daft question it may be, but do you actually NEED a car at the moment? Fair enough if a job requires one or you feel it would be useful for the line of work once you leave school at 18, but if it's just for going out in the evening with your mates, then the risk of incidents and the knock-on implications is very high.

I waited until I had left college and got a job needing one before buying my first car - it's a bit o apin not having one, but it'll save you a small fortune not having to pay sky-high premiums for a car that would cost less than a tenth to insure when you're over 25 (not saying you need to wait that long though).

Given the current economic climate, you might want to defer buying a car until you can realistically afford one without having to borrow or to use a good portion of your salary to run it (i.e. including insurance and paying back the purchase loan/PCP).

If you have to, best to buy a base spec, not that powerful-engined car that is reliable, safe and cheap to run, fix/maintain and insure.

Oh, and if not done so already, go and do a pass plus or other insurer-accredited scheme to reduce any premium, after checking how much it would do so (this benefit would probably last for about 3 years or so, assuming a clean record, including no traffic/speeding offenses) on insurance screen-scraper websites.

Some insurers may offer better rates than others as they specifically are tailored for younger drivers, but they may well ask for things like pass plus or, as others have said, use of a black box device or equivalent. I have no experience with the latter, so I'll leave it to those who have to provide comments.

Be careful though if you think it cheaper to put you on your parents or an older sibbling's insurance policy for their car instead as a named driver - some people may use this record as a way of getting experience at a resuced cost, but most insurers won't count it towards any no-claims bonus for you, and if the named driver uses that car a lot (especially the majority of the time), then that is illegal (fronting) and the policy could be cancelled and all parties may find future insurance difficult and VERY expensive.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:01

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 13:05

First Car Dilemma! - brum

Copy and pasted from another forum, advice from an Insurer on a similar thread/theme

You'll find insurers will rate on you being the main driver anyway so there's no such thing nowadays as what used to be referred to as 'fronting'. Some insurers will offer a reduction if you add additional, older drivers to the policy - usually mum and dad if that works for you - but not all do. The key is to shop around and see who comes up best for your own scenario. Have you tried Marmalade, Insure the Box, Admiral, Aviva etc - all offer black box type cover for younger drivers.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:01

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 13:22

First Car Dilemma! - skidpan

My first banger cost me £80 to buy and £40 to insure (3rd party F & T) thus my first years motoring cost £120 (plus fuel, VED and sundries). Wage was about £30 a week, paid sod all tax and NI so it was probably 5 weeks take home.

Mates son has just past his test, first car is a 66 plate Fiesta ST Line. £9000 to buy and £6000 to insure, total for 1st years motoring £15,000. If that is 5 weeks take home he's on £3,000 a week. Do apprentice welders make that kind of money?

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:02

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 15:25

First Car Dilemma! - brum

Mates son has just past his test, first car is a 66 plate Fiesta ST Line. £9000 to buy and £6000 to insure, total for 1st years motoring £15,000. If that is 5 weeks take home he's on £3,000 a week. Do apprentice welders make that kind of money?

Damn it, I knew I shouldn't have gone to university!

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 17:20

First Car Dilemma! - Engineer Andy

My first banger cost me £80 to buy and £40 to insure (3rd party F & T) thus my first years motoring cost £120 (plus fuel, VED and sundries). Wage was about £30 a week, paid sod all tax and NI so it was probably 5 weeks take home.

Mates son has just past his test, first car is a 66 plate Fiesta ST Line. £9000 to buy and £6000 to insure, total for 1st years motoring £15,000. If that is 5 weeks take home he's on £3,000 a week. Do apprentice welders make that kind of money?

They could probably hire a chauffeur for that money!

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 13:22

First Car Dilemma! - chesterfieldhouse

My son had a telematics black box in his first car, a 1.4 Golf; this was back in 2011 -12.

lt did make it cheaper insurance wise, as long as you can live with the obvious monitoring. l don't recall exactly what it recorded, but l do remember there were 4 dials on the app with such things as speed, breaking, cornering & time; l think. Good thing was, on a monthly basis, he would receive a refund on the premium if certain levels had been achieved. Had it for a few years & it cost £80 odd to remove.

He too did the pass + & found that only a few insurance companies gave any sort of discount (5% max) Good to do though as includes motorway tuition.

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 15:02

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 16:39

First Car Dilemma! - badbusdriver

As others have said, choosing a more modest car would probably be a sensible idea. But being a (presumably?) young male, means sensible is probably not on your radar!.

As to the black box, if you drive within the speed limits, don't try to go round roundabouts like Ken Block (and don't work shifts), I really don't see a problem. As long as the savings you get by having one are worthwhile of course (including the removal fee).

It is a weird thing with cars for young drivers and insurance groups, it doesn't make much sense to me at all and my example is my nephew who passed his test early 2019. Before he passed his test, he got a quote for a 1.4 petrol Fiesta (not sure what age) and it was something like £2.5-3k. Couple of weeks later he bought a Skoda Fabia VRS (1.9TDI, 130bhp)!. When I asked him about the insurance, he said it was much cheaper than the quote for the Fiesta, apparently because the insurance company classed the Fabia as a 'family car'!. Now I would have been ok accepting this were it a 'bread and butter' Fabia, but the VRS?, baffling!. He currently runs a Volvo V70 2.4 turbo diesel and loves it!.

The insurance prices are the same for all three cars so do I bite the bullet and get myself something nice for 1 or 2 years until I can afford to take the black box off or do I purchase a Suzuki swift sport, while slower and less appealing I won't be monitored constantly and after a year sell it to buy something a bit faster and without a box again.

Toyota Celica 1.8 (143bhp as opposed the 190bhp VVT), 8.7 seconds 0-62.

Hyundai Coupe 2.0, 9.2 seconds 0-62.

Suzuki Swift Sport (2007-2010), 8.9 seconds 0-62.

There are many facets to what makes something appealing, but in the case of a car, 'condition' surely is right up there. I say this because your chances of finding a nice Toyota Celica or Hyundai Coupe, both of which went out of production in 2006, are very slim indeed. And a tired, ropey example is not going to be very appealing at all!.

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 17:18

First Car Dilemma! - John F

do you have any suggestions of cars a 17 year old could take out as there first car?

Yes. Unless you are an image conscious petrolhead (or even if you are), a dented old car of any popular make with a small engine costing as far south of £1000 as possible.

Looking back through my records I see I paid £44.10 (third party, fire & theft) to Chapel Hill Insurance Brokers of Huddersfield in August 1974 to insure the old battered Toyota Crown I'd driven back from Zambia. Four inflationary years later (it was 25% in 1975...you youngsters have no idea what a basket case the country was then....and how much we owe to Maggie T for rescuing it) when I was still footloose and fancy free, I paid £159.90 (comprehensive) to insure my prized Triumph Dolomite Sprint. But my first car in 1967 aged 17 was a rusty old Ford Anglia 100E - and sadly I have no record of the insurance cost, although I do remember the car cost £50.

Edited by John F on 12/04/2021 at 17:21

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 17:44

First Car Dilemma! - brum

. But my first car in 1967 aged 17 was a rusty old Ford Anglia 100E - and sadly I have no record of the insurance cost, although I do remember the car cost £50.

And 4 star petrol was 5s 6d a gallon, man was still planning to fly to the moon.

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 17:22

First Car Dilemma! - Engineer Andy

Toyota Celica 1.8 (143bhp as opposed the 190bhp VVT), 8.7 seconds 0-62.
Hyundai Coupe 2.0, 9.2 seconds 0-62.

Suzuki Swift Sport (2007-2010), 8.9 seconds 0-62.

There are many facets to what makes something appealing, but in the case of a car, 'condition' surely is right up there. I say this because your chances of finding a nice Toyota Celica or Hyundai Coupe, both of which went out of production in 2006, are very slim indeed. And a tired, ropey example is not going to be very appealing at all!.

Especially as many of those two cars are probably now onwed by the modding brigade, which means getting a reasonable quote would be very hard indeed.

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 17:49

First Car Dilemma! - brum

Toyota Celica 1.8 (143bhp as opposed the 190bhp VVT), 8.7 seconds 0-62.
Hyundai Coupe 2.0, 9.2 seconds 0-62.

Suzuki Swift Sport (2007-2010), 8.9 seconds 0-62.

There are many facets to what makes something appealing, but in the case of a car, 'condition' surely is right up there. I say this because your chances of finding a nice Toyota Celica or Hyundai Coupe, both of which went out of production in 2006, are very slim indeed. And a tired, ropey example is not going to be very appealing at all!.

Especially as many of those two cars are probably now onwed by the modding brigade, which means getting a reasonable quote would be very hard indeed.

That is indeed most important, the insurance database will record claims against car makes and models, engine and trim level. The fact is that modded cars distort claim and premiums profiles will taint a standard model as the assumption is that is the destiny for these cars.

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 18:24

First Car Dilemma! - johncyprus

Your choice of cars for 17 year old driver is, I’ll be polite, unwise. Any of those cars will get you into trouble leading to the inevitable accident causing you all sorts of grief which will tap you on the shoulder for years to come.
Be sensible, if you really need a car do what my kids did and start with a Citreon C1 or similar. All being well you’ll avoid a serious accident and not hurt anybody and after a few years build up a NCB and then if you want to, buy something sportier.

Edited by johncyprus on 12/04/2021 at 18:27

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 18:30

First Car Dilemma! - Xileno

Just a note to say the subject line was edited by one of us Moderators, that is why many of the posts have the "Edited by...." tag on them. No-one's content has been altered at all.

Yes it was me at fault.

I corrected the spelling of DILEMA to DILEMMA,

I should have put a little note in.

My fault. Grovel, grovel grovel,

ORB

Edited by _ORB_ on 12/04/2021 at 18:33

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Mon 12 Apr 2021 19:43

First Car Dilemma! - sammy1

Most youngsters have some accident prang in their first few years of driving. Even if not your fault then insurers will weigh heavily against you as often as not. It is your budget, my advice is to buy cheap and practical, main stream makes such as Ford or Vauxhall will be cheaper to run. As well as insurance you need to factor in servicing and possible breakdowns. I would not go for a black box unless you want to drive like your granny!

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