Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking

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Thu 14 May 2020 16:01
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

2002 1.6 Petrol

I am desperately re-posting this as I hope there is someone who has experience of this kind of issue out there, and can say if there is anything simple that may cause it, of if its a known fatal issue... I have to deal with it very urgently.

had had a slightly worrying metallic tap from the engine for a while, and had topped the oil up and driven very sedately. Listening with a "screwdriver" to my ear it didn't seem to come from anywhere around the top of the engine. I hadn't listened from underneath.

I was driving about 65mph, Empty motorway. when suddenly the car started to shake. It seemed obvious that it was the engine. I got onto the hard shoulder and stopped the engine. After about 1 minute I turned the key, and the engine started, but shook the car vigorously. I stopped the engine again within about 10 seconds.

I assumed it was a big end, and was a development from the tapping! It has been parked up waiting to scrap it. However a friend suggested it could be the rubber in the crankshaft pulley, a pulley I have replaced on other cars. Also this forum has made me think of the flywheel, and engine mountings. Does this engine have balancer/vibration compensation shafts?

The engine mountings appear OK, except one shows signs of movement, but no damage.

I am going to start it again, to see if I learn anything... or if it finishes destroying the engine.

Any advice or similar experiences? I have previously had outstanding advice here! Thankyou Honest John.

13/05/2020

I still have the car. I have not tried to run it. I had a good look at the crankshaft pulley that has rubber etc to take the shock out of the timing belt. It appears central and OK. I have heard these fail and cause violent vibration.

Decision time. Does anyone have experience/ opinions pleease... :-)

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Thu 14 May 2020 17:05
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - galileo

The company I worked for used to supply crankshaft vibration dampers to BMC, Peugeot, Rootes group, Vauxhall and Jaguar cars, larger ones went to truck makers such as Volvo, Scania etc.

According to the senior sales engineer, British built Minis had a vibration damper, Minis built by Innocenti under licence just had a solid pulley instead.

That being the case, I don't think a visibly intact damper would cause the severe vibration you describe.

A completely failed big end, however, would lead to bad unbalance and I would expect it to make a loud banging noise too.

If the cap fell off as the piston reached TDC the conrod might be clear of the crank web so maybe no rattling, the piston and rod being stationary.

I'm sure someone will have experience of such a failure with more than my guesswork to contribute.

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Thu 14 May 2020 21:25
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - paul 1963

Grab the engine and give it a good hard shake, you'll hear/ feel if it's a engine mount.

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Fri 15 May 2020 09:12
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Thankyou. Very helpful

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Fri 15 May 2020 13:06
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Amazing! Blinding! Bonkers!

I dared start it for the first time since I had it recovered. Low shake (but I was standing reaching through the window) but a very breathy suck/blow sound!

Thought I might as well look at the plugs - a wild guess as if the shake was less maybe it could be missing????

Well ONE SPARKPLUG CAME AWAY WITH THE COIL UNIT.... NOT SCREWED IN!!!

How.

Well the thread is damaged and access is difficult. Someone (previous) managed to make the plug stick and work I guess with it hanging on by a few outer threads, which obviously failed, on me! Other things on the car are a bit of a lashup!

I suppose the vibration may be that I only took it to tickover for a few seconds this time, but on the motorway and the hard shoulder it was very much faster!

So since maybe only a third if the thread in the head is damaged, I'm hoping that I can get a plug to go in and stay, With 2/3 of the thread looking untouched (torch and mirror and contortions!) If I can get it to start it should go in ok. However after an hour I have decided to take apart the plastic air inlet etc to get a (relatively) straight line on the plug hole.

Any advice/tricks? I don't know if a tap may be needed to clean the start of the thread.

This is about the third totally mad fault I have found on cars! My previous posts here explain!!!

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Fri 15 May 2020 14:27
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - bathtub tom
Any advice/tricks? I don't know if a tap may be needed to clean the start of the thread.

Cut a slot (you may find diagonally easier) across the threads of an old spark plug. Apply a liberal amount of grease to the threads and slot and screw that in. The grease should pick up any debris.

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Fri 15 May 2020 14:41
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Excellent advice..

However I have now got the inlet manifold and injectors out of the way, and despite the plug holes facing towards the bulkhead and under the windscreen wipers, I can get my head in and have a proper look.

The thread is totally stripped. The plug drops all the way in to the shoulder at the same depth as the rest which are screwed in - and lifts out freely!!!!

I bin had! Surprising the car lasted as long as it did!

I'm going to see if I can get and fit an insert! as it was a runner before and I'm skint!

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Fri 15 May 2020 17:02
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Andrew-T

The thread is totally stripped. The plug drops all the way in to the shoulder at the same depth as the rest which are screwed in - and lifts out freely!!!!

I cannot imagine how a plug-hole could have been damaged to that extent - surely any plug shank would not be able to strip the cylinder head ? Must have been someone with powerful muscles.

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Fri 15 May 2020 20:48
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - galileo

The thread is totally stripped. The plug drops all the way in to the shoulder at the same depth as the rest which are screwed in - and lifts out freely!!!!

I cannot imagine how a plug-hole could have been damaged to that extent - surely any plug shank would not be able to strip the cylinder head ? Must have been someone with powerful muscles.

There seem to be lots of Citroen cylinder heads for sale on the internet - are these alloy heads or is the plug seating thread not very long?

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Fri 15 May 2020 23:36
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - focussed

According to the NGK catalogue they are a 12 mm dia thread x 19 mm ( 3/4") reach.

Thread depth to diameter is about 1.5 ratio so engineering wise is ok.

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Sat 16 May 2020 03:27
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Tahnkyou ....

I'm certain the plug is the standard M14 x 1.25 an SAE sparkplug standard.

It looks like there are loads of kits to do the job but on close study all the cheap ones have taps that look poor in the photos. And to get a good one is £60....

Also there are either inserts or "coil" - stainless "spring" that flexibly fits the new thread. Recoil looks like a good product. And Helicoil of course!

Online reviews are limited! and the vast variety is just repeats of the same 3 or 4 products!

Any recommendations? Do the cheap kits work? And a Stockist in Canterbury or Kent ... for good measure !!!!!

17/05/2020

Expecting a kit to arrive tomorrow-Monday, as well as a cheap boreCam so I can check for swarf in the cylinder etc. I intend to grease the tap to hopefully catch most of it. May try to make a video of the process!

Edited by Sailor on 17/05/2020 at 23:13

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Tue 19 May 2020 21:12
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Well, read the "comedy of errors" right here.

I bought the BGS 152 Tap and insert kit. The image showed a sharp edged tap... and so it was. Excellent.

Unfortunately I also bought a cheap 7mm "Endescope - to use as a borescope!!!! to check for escaped swarf frm the grease-laden tap in the cylinder!

Well the tap worked a treat, and the grease caught lot of swarf. I withdrew it on every turn to remove the swarf (aluminium chips) and regrease.

Then I used the endescope to explore.... well I don't know why I did it.... but I fitted the provided clip and stainless wire hook that came with it. I added a bit of masking tape as it wasn't ever so secure......

Well as I withdrew it, somehow the dr*tted stainlesss hook fell off inside the cylinder.

A COUPLE OF HOURS OF FISHING through the plughole, with the endescope, and gadgets made of wire and string... and its still in there. I did catch it once but it escaped as I tried to get it through the plug hole!!!! However I did spot about 3 timy bits of aluminium!

So I'm going to take the head off. The 3 aluminium chips I would guess would likely blow out of the exhaust, and are soft so I'd chance them... Or if that was all try to hoover them with a small pipe.... But the sodding piece of completely unnecessary stainless steel hook/wire, could I fear jam between the piston and bore, and make a good mess!

So bought the online Haynes manual..... All going well...... but WHERE ON EARTH ... well where on the engine block - is the timing hole for the flywheel????? The only possible place seems to be behind a mysterious lump - that will be the oil filter! .... Does anyone know if this is correct?

Being only 8 valve, this should be manageable.... even on the roadside!

EDIT: I also found a little bit of silicone in the tube to the plug hole !!! So this had already been a problem and someone had used silicone to help fix the plug!!!!

Edited by Sailor on 19/05/2020 at 21:22

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Tue 19 May 2020 22:42
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - bathtub tom

I once used some thick grease on the end of a length of screen washer pipe to recover the top of a spark plug I managed to drop down a spark plug hole.

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Tue 19 May 2020 23:16
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Andrew-T

A thin stick with a sticky end, e.g. duct tape ?

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Tue 19 May 2020 23:16
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Avant

"It has been parked up waiting to scrap it." (From your original post)

I'm missing something here. Why are you putting yourself through all this if you're going to scrap it? If the engine is shot anyway, surely the scrap value won't be very different whether it's drivable or not?

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Tue 19 May 2020 23:46
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

I was wrong.... I thought it was a writeoff. However as I said above, it is/was "only" a spark plug! So now it is saveable.

Plus It is my only car. I have been working in London as a supply teacher and have coped with public transport.... Now I am Furloughed, and have less money and more time! Just learnt yesterday that I'm likely to eventually get 80% of wages.... It was far from certain!

Still skint.... And its sort of fun, and an achievement!

Edit: The plugs are angled so its hard to fish properly! I've started taking stuff off of the head etc. I'll clean up the top end while I'm at it.

Edited by Sailor on 19/05/2020 at 23:50

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Wed 20 May 2020 00:01
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - edlithgow

"It has been parked up waiting to scrap it." (From your original post)

I'm missing something here. Why are you putting yourself through all this if you're going to scrap it? If the engine is shot anyway, surely the scrap value won't be very different whether it's drivable or not?

Can only speak for myself, but I'd guess applicable phrases might be

That was then and this is now.

AND

I've started, so I'll finish.

Dunno about prices in the UK, but on a rational economic basis it MIGHT have been better to get a one-off helicoil job done by someone else.

One can't always operate on a rational economic basis though.

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Fri 30 Oct 2020 17:32
Citroen Xsara Picasso - Violent Engine Vibration Shaking - Sailor

Thankyou all for the excellent help, ideas, knowledge, and your time.

Other life stuff came up and I wasn't able to concentrate on it. So I had to scrap it after all. Not much of a loss as there were other things wrong with the car too. QUite a learning experience though! The main lesson being to keep it simple! Next I have a Vauxhall Nova that needs a new head gasket! cute little engine! Should be a piece of cake!

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