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Thank you Sammy1 - this is a different aspect from the threads I closed, so this, arguably more immediately relevant, topic is welcome.
The Mail always exaggerates (to sell copies) but it is a sigificant factor. Two or three times a month either SWMBO or I, or more often both, make a 200-mile round trip from Dorset to see family / friends in Berkshire.
Both of our petrol Audis could do the return trip twice over before needing to be filled up. The best of the realistically-priced EVs, the Kia E-Niro, is generally agreed to have a range of 250 miles or so: enough to do Berks and back on one charge. But if this is going to deteriorate in conditions like this evening, needing wipers, lights, heating and also aircon (which I always have on all the time even in winter to avoid misting up), I can see a distinct possibility of range anxiety on the way back. The only effect on the Audi (the A3 on this occasion) was 46 mpg instead of 50, and some of that was probably due to driving against the westerly wind.
A plug-in could well be the way forward for me next time, but EVs seem to me best suited to people who don't need to do these long trips..
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But if this is going to deteriorate in conditions like this evening, needing wipers, lights, heating and also aircon (which I always have on all the time even in winter to avoid misting up), I can see a distinct possibility of range anxiety on the way back.
Precisely, Who needs anxiety on todays roads! I suppose you could ask your family for a free charge to get you home! You would only need a road diversion or a complete standstill for hours and you would be knackered and stuck.
I well remember going back some years to winter driving, parked outside on the road facing the right way! you had to display a "parking light" which could drain a battery within 14 or so hours parked. So it was out with the starting handle and getting the compression just right to start. None of these old cars had the electric hungry extras that todays cars have and nobody wants to go backwards if it means they cannot run their car without worrying how much juice they have left! I hope that battery tech improves a lot in the near future otherwise I envisage the battery needing to be bigger than the car!!
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Ah well, we’ve got until 2035 before production of ICE cars ceases. Bound to come up with a solution in that time. Who’s for another pint?
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I only buy premium tyres these days - mainly because I buy new cars which have them factory fitted and I tend to change cars before the tyres need changing. However, in more impecunious days I ran Uniroyals on a Renault Espace and Firestones on a Renault Savannah and both were fine for mixed conditions, mixed distances driving. The Firestones, as I recall, were good for about 18,000 miles on the fronts, but I don’t remember having to replace the Uniroyals. Those two cars were the only cars we had in the family during their respective periods of service so they did supermarket trips, regular ferrying to swimming lessons, band practice, Cub Scout meetings etc, long distance holiday trips and long-ish distance visits to grandparents and other family members.
Tou might consider Firestone and Uniroyal slightly better budget brands - I don’t know - but I would recommend either on my experience of them.
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My apologies. My last post was meant to be under the Budget Tyres thread.
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A couple of points.
Most of continental Europe tends to experience prolonged periods of sub-zero temperatures in winter with -20 C not being uncommon. While not too relevant in the UK, the phenomenon needs to be addressed if widespread adoption of battery cars is to beceome reality.
Electric cars tend to have a pre-condition function so you can warm them up while connected to the electricity supply.
Lastly, if you compare the news articles of the Mail with those of other papers you will note that the content is almost identical.
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The average length of a commuter journey by car is approx 10 miles. The average school run is almost certainly shorter as schools tend to be more local. These and the local retail park/town centre could be done every day on a single charge once a week.
There are some (a few) in more remote parts of the country - highlands, Northumberland, mid-Wales etc. They may want to hang on to their ICE as long as possible.
So for most people most of the time EV would be entirely adequate if the capital costs match ICE - likely in 2-3 years time. The only real issue remaining (as opposed to simple denial) is charging. A number of thoughts:
- government could mandate a minimum number of charging points at each workplace car park. Fines for non-compliance greater than the cost of installation.
- retailers on parks already often provide recharging points. It makes good sense for them to expand availability or customers will go elsewhere
- local authorities could mandate that all new construction (housing, commercial etc) has adequate recharging facilities. Could also ensure that any major schemes (roads, sewage, water, comms etc) also embed upgraded power.
- fast chargers in motorway service areas would mean that any journey could be broken at 2-3 hour intervals (150 - 200) miles - coffee, pee, recharge.
- or technology may simply provide for replaceable battery modules with all heavy lifting by robot.
This is all achievable with current technology if the will is there. Claiming some insuperable difficulty is just plain nonsense.
Edited by Terry W on 15/02/2020 at 11:54
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The average length of a commuter journey by car is approx 10 miles. The average school run is almost certainly shorter as schools tend to be more local. These and the local retail park/town centre could be done every day on a single charge once a week.
There are some (a few) in more remote parts of the country - highlands, Northumberland, mid-Wales etc. They may want to hang on to their ICE as long as possible.
So for most people most of the time EV would be entirely adequate if the capital costs match ICE - likely in 2-3 years time.
You seem to have ignored many (most?) car owners who regularly use their cars over long distances for holidays, visiting relatives, sports events, entertainment trips, etc.
For owners with only one vehicle having a car unsuitable for their needs even just a few times per year is a potential issue when considering a purchase.
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<< government could mandate a minimum number of charging points at each workplace car park. Fines for non-compliance greater than the cost of installation. >>
That sounds like an expensive lose-lose for workplaces. Won't win many votes I'm afraid.
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The average length of a commuter journey by car is approx 10 miles. The average school run is almost certainly shorter as schools tend to be more local. These and the local retail park/town centre could be done every day on a single charge once a week.
There are some (a few) in more remote parts of the country - highlands, Northumberland, mid-Wales etc. They may want to hang on to their ICE as long as possible.
Creating a two-tier, rich & poor system, but paid for by everyone through taxation, all the while ICE vehcile owners get taxed again through the nose at the pumps. Perhaps offsetting this by reducing fuel taxes considerably would help once the ban on new cars comes in. Not sure what to do about vans and HGVs which don't lend themselves to EV systems by virtue of their wieght carrying requirements vs the battery pack size required for decent distance travel.
So for most people most of the time EV would be entirely adequate if the capital costs match ICE - likely in 2-3 years time. The only real issue remaining (as opposed to simple denial) is charging. A number of thoughts:
- government could mandate a minimum number of charging points at each workplace car park. Fines for non-compliance greater than the cost of installation.
Not every workplace has a) a car park suitable for upgrading (the way it's laid out), b) very few have anywhere enough spaces for the number of people working there using the car to get there, and c) not every firm is awash with cash. Far better to give tax breaks if you're going to encourage firms to install them.
- retailers on parks already often provide recharging points. It makes good sense for them to expand availability or customers will go elsewhere
- local authorities could mandate that all new construction (housing, commercial etc) has adequate recharging facilities. Could also ensure that any major schemes (roads, sewage, water, comms etc) also embed upgraded power.
Good luck with that - as someone who's worked in Construction for a good number of years, co-ordination with other trades is poor at the best of times, especially when government departments and councils get involved. Things don't work like clockwork like in the infamous Heineken TV advert (though I wish it did) - quite the opposite in fact.
I mean, how often do you see freshly resurfaced roads dug up within weeks by a utility firm in order to carry out a new installation or upgrade/long-term repair they've been planning for months or more? A lot.
- fast chargers in motorway service areas would mean that any journey could be broken at 2-3 hour intervals (150 - 200) miles - coffee, pee, recharge.
At present, sales of new EVs account for about 2-3% of all cars sold each year, but far less than that (probably 1% or less) of the total on the road. Now imagine if within 10 years or so that figure jumped to 50%, maybe more.
Where are these firms providing the chargers (we can't all buy Teslas and nor will they continue to put in more and more 'free' charging points at their expense as sales rise) going to fund 10 - 20x as many chargers in that time? I bet they'd start to charge for parking or put the prices up for retailers, which means everyone (again) would be affected, but only those being able to afford to buy an EV.
- or technology may simply provide for replaceable battery modules with all heavy lifting by robot.
Perhaps, but at present, EVs either incorporate the battery packs into the floorpan structure deliberately to give the car strength, meaning they cannot easily/quickly be removed, or they are taking up valuable space in the underboot area (often raising the level of the boot floor and reducing its capacity significantly) and also are cars with a very limited range.
A step-change in battery technology to significantly increase their energy density would be needed, so the can be placed in areas of the vehicle that can be both easily accessed to 'hot-swap' them and that doesn't adversely affect storage space, ride quality or handling due to their location.
This is all achievable with current technology if the will is there. Claiming some insuperable difficulty is just plain nonsense.
Sorry, but it is patently NOT achievable for all (a few, perhaps) with the current technology available, nor often on the grounds of cost and logistics. Saying so doesn't mean we're talking nonsence, but common sense, but it doesn't mean the issues cannot be overcome with time. I and, it appears, many others here are more of the opinion that those proponents of this are being overly optimistic.
To me, 2035 is way too soon. 2050 - 2060 as a minimum, perhaps a lot longer - to change how homes and business premises is a huge undertaking, especially those of us who live in flats and terraced housing that don't have the space or resources to be able to afford to install charging facilities, never mind the security implications in many areas that have crime/vandalism problems.
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I have to disagree with your views - although you are of course entitled to hold them.
Perhaps I should have finished with the need for the WILL and the MONEY to make it happen. It may (in my view) become the motive power of choice for an increasing number of city dwellers, two car households, those with on-site charging facilities, local delivery firms (food, courier services) etc. Increasing controls over emissions in city and town centres are unlikely to go away.
Those unable to use EVs (for possibly good reasons) will be an ever smaller number - already 83% of the the UK live in urban areas. It is the 83% who will drive the change, not the 17% who can't or won't.
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This is all achievable with current technology if the will is there.
Perhaps I should have finished with the need for the WILL and the MONEY to make it happen.
Your statements are factually correct but out of touch with reality.
It is indeed possible to convert the country from ICE to EV vehicles by 2032, or 2035, or … (watch this space) but that requires the electorate behind it, a government willing to divert a massive proportion of available resources and funds to the task, enormous inconvenience for many people, and ignoring all those "other" vocal environmental supporters who come forward with every infrastructure development in their back yard (think Heathrow and HS2).
That last happened during World War 2. The reality this time is that half the country don't believe the change is needed, an electorate that has no wish to be inconvenienced or pay more tax, a government that believes every problem can be solved by spin, and a PM happy to pluck policies and deadlines out of thin air knowing he will not be around when they fail.
Edited by misar on 15/02/2020 at 15:47
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Some really interesting points on this. What is sadly lacking is a government strategy or even any sign of a commitment as to charging networks for EV or where the demand for electric is coming from. To announce 2032 as a possible cut off for ICE and hybrids is I think a bit scaremongering and how are citizens supposed to plan with this sort of woolly info. I was hoping BJ would be a bit better than the last lot but nothing seems to have changed witness the shambles of the new cabinet. So HS2 is going ahead and we hear the Chinese have been in discussion presumably before the announcement! Then we have the Bridge, yes the one between NI and Scotland, have they gone completely loopy. The ferries have a job to cross this water and who would want to drive north to Scotland to get to NI and vice versa. Perhaps we will get some sense soon but don't bank on it.
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What about power cuts? You're car is on charge but due to a power cut you go to leave for work in the morning and fund you only have 10% battery. How well does that go down with the boss because you can't get in to work that morning or are going to be 2 hours late.
I know we don't have them regularly like back in the 70s (have been told about this from older relatives) but with 2 seems in 2 weekends like right now with parts of the country being cut off your EV is going nowhere until power is restored.
I'm not against EV'svas for 99% of my journeys maybe 99.9% they will be perfect I'm just being realistic and thinking of the what ifs.
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What about power cuts?
No petrol at my local Sainsbury last week; how well that might have gone down with boss if I'd been playing fuel light bing?
I might be the older relative who remembers the 3 day week and rota power cuts. There's an argument that capacity for industrial action kept wages up c/p today.
We also had a couple of hours at home with no leccy last Sunday courtesy of Ciara. Probably only second time we'd had a cut that long in 30 years.
But it was on two streets away and Tesco had petrol even though Sainsbury was dry.
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What about power cuts?
No petrol at my local Sainsbury last week; how well that might have gone down with boss if I'd been playing fuel light bing?
I might be the older relative who remembers the 3 day week and rota power cuts. There's an argument that capacity for industrial action kept wages up c/p today.
We also had a couple of hours at home with no leccy last Sunday courtesy of Ciara. Probably only second time we'd had a cut that long in 30 years.
But it was on two streets away and Tesco had petrol even though Sainsbury was dry.
That's my point though you went to Tesco because they had petrol but if the whole area is out of electricity then you're stuffed. Also in the 7 years in this house had a power cut once and that's because an idiot diggingup the road hit the cabel.
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How well does that go down with the boss because you can't get in to work that morning or are going to be 2 hours late.
It's already happening with the trains - and not just occasionally either.
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How well does that go down with the boss because you can't get in to work that morning or are going to be 2 hours late.
It's already happening with the trains - and not just occasionally either.
You're right it is happening regularly and I bet employers aren't happy with it either.
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I'm not a tree hugger but we bought a 3 year old Leaf for purely economic reasons in September. We have covered nearly 6k miles. I can tell you it's range at the moment is 60 miles. This is with heater on all the time. It's set to preheat every morning, what a joy for my other half to get in to a warm car and not have to defrost it. TBH I was totally anti EV but have been converted, it's so pleasant and relaxing to drive and people seem to give way to you. It would if course be useless as our only car. But as a commuter it's perfect. I'm not even going to bother servicing it, just change the brake fluid every 2 years and MOT it...
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My sister in law runs a Nissan Leaf which is perfect for day to day commuting and local activities. A friend of mine has a Hyundai Kona which has a fabulous range and they even use it between Yorkshire and London, I was amazed as to how well this car drives - it goes like stink!
Would I take one of these across Europe - not yet - but it'll soon be normal.
There are a lot of negative comments re electric cars - but love or loathe them they will be normal real soon now
Edited by Big John on 15/02/2020 at 23:12
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My sister in law runs a Nissan Leaf which is perfect for day to day commuting and local activities. A friend of mine has a Hyundai Kona which has a fabulous range and they even use it between Yorkshire and London, I was amazed as to how well this car drives - it goes like stink!
Would I take one of these across Europe - not yet - but it'll soon be normal.
There are a lot of negative comments re electric cars - but love or loathe them they will be normal real soon now
My biggest bone of contention is that EVs greatest proponents often think they are currently (pardon the pun) the solution to all our problems. They are patently not, as the tech is still early in its development life and is obviously still very much a niche market, especially for those of us living in flats or terraces houses, or who don't have oodles of money to spend buying one or paying £££ to upgrade private parking facilities and underground electrical systems.
Many of us also would not be able to depend on them, as in my line of work, you often have to, at very short notice and on the clock, go to site visits or meetings all over the country, which means that finding and then waiting 45 mins to charge your car and possibly (in winter) again on the way there is not acceptable.
Many people nowadays also have longer commutes and as yet, very few company car parks have charging point spaces only for EVs, and that's assuming you'd get a space anyway.
Horses for course, I think. Maybe in 50 years, perhaps, everyone will be able to have one without problems, but there's still a long way to go.
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An interesting thread. Let's hope it doesn't drift into political ranting or bitter arguments about the reality or otherwise of global warming. It would be nice to hear from people who have owned EVs for a few years and can tell us their good and bad points.
Edited by martin.mc on 17/02/2020 at 00:28
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I’ve been following the EV market with interest over the last few years. When I renewed my car last year I was quite keen to go electric as I have 50/50 motorway and heavy urban commute, and n electric car would be a lot cheaper to run.
However for my 15k budget I could have a 6 month old Honda Civic diesel auto with 500 mile range, or higher mileage Prius or one of several sub 100 mile range smaller cars.
So I bought the civic, I’m in the north east and the only charging points are one or two in supermarkets, or service stations so not much use to me. In the end I think electric cars future lies in being either short urban distance cars and/or specialist cars like Tesla etc which are more focused on performance. This leaves a gap for the ‘normal’ car user, maybe hydrogen fuel cell cars will evolve to fill this gap?
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The maximum power of a Nissan Leaf is apparently over 110kW, but I guess only 10-15kW is needed to trundle along at normal speeds. A Citroen 2CV is at maximum power (7kW) most of the time to keep up. So if the heater is blasting out the equivalent of a 2kW domestic fan heater, you are presumably using around 20% of its range just to keep warm.
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Do EVs use deceleration forces to put some small charge back into the batteries, or is that wasted energy as in all non hybrids?
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Do EVs use deceleration forces to put some small charge back into the batteries, or is that wasted energy as in all non hybrids?
Typically they use regenerative braking which is often criticised for giving a rather odd pedal feel and less progressive braking.
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Typically they use regenerative braking which is often criticised for giving a rather odd pedal feel and less progressive braking.
Thankyou SLO, sensible too and like auxilliary braking on lorries and buses takes a bit of getting used to get the feel of and getting the best from it i imagine.
As for heaters in EV's (posts below), somehow i can't see the young lady who sat for ages at Trowell sat morn running her car engine to keep warm being content with a warm steering wheel and bottom but having to otherwise dress for the winter moors, and calling this progress, any more than the thousands of reps sit for hours on end doing the same, or for even more hours running the aircon on hot days, both of which will consume battery power in short order.
I suspect the same systems as fitted to lorries will find their way into cars as the pressure mounts to force EVs in, namely default engine shutdown after say 2 minutes idle time, the systems are already in place via stop/start, wonder which maker will be the first to remove the disable SS switch.
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The maximum power of a Nissan Leaf is apparently over 110kW, but I guess only 10-15kW is needed to trundle along at normal speeds. A Citroen 2CV is at maximum power (7kW) most of the time to keep up. So if the heater is blasting out the equivalent of a 2kW domestic fan heater, you are presumably using around 20% of its range just to keep warm.
Is a 2kw fan heater the right comparison?
We use one in the caravan which has considerably higher internal volume than a car and it trips off on the thermostat pretty quickly. I've also seen it argued that EV's can be made to feel perfectly comfortable with a heated seat and steering wheel rim.
Sure there are problems but they're there to be solved not as imaginary hurdles as to why EV's can never work.
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The maximum power of a Nissan Leaf is apparently over 110kW, but I guess only 10-15kW is needed to trundle along at normal speeds. A Citroen 2CV is at maximum power (7kW) most of the time to keep up. So if the heater is blasting out the equivalent of a 2kW domestic fan heater, you are presumably using around 20% of its range just to keep warm.
Is a 2kw fan heater the right comparison?
We use one in the caravan which has considerably higher internal volume than a car and it trips off on the thermostat pretty quickly. I've also seen it argued that EV's can be made to feel perfectly comfortable with a heated seat and steering wheel rim.
Sure there are problems but they're there to be solved not as imaginary hurdles as to why EV's can never work.
Perhaps, but IMHO (and a lot of other people's) just not by 2035.
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Perhaps, but IMHO (and a lot of other people's) just not by 2035.
You may be right in which case 2035 will be moved forward. I suspect it's use now is intended to provide an impetus to ensure we get there by the originally planned date of 2040.
As I keep saying don't forget the electric car 15 years ago was the G-Whiz; this technology is shifting fast.
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You may be right in which case 2035 will be moved forward. I suspect it's use now is intended to provide an impetus to ensure we get there by the originally planned date of 2040.
I suspect it's use now is intended to improve the green credentials of a PM with no plan or interest in climate change but reassured that he will not be around to take the blame when it all goes wrong.
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Perhaps, but IMHO (and a lot of other people's) just not by 2035.
You may be right in which case 2035 will be moved forward. I suspect it's use now is intended to provide an impetus to ensure we get there by the originally planned date of 2040.
As I keep saying don't forget the electric car 15 years ago was the G-Whiz; this technology is shifting fast.
The problem is that governments (and their advising teams and 'experts') regularly get it wrong, as was evidenced by Gordon Brown saying loads of people should switch to diesel cars, many of whom should never have done so and the extra pollution has lead to a rise in respiratory ailments and disease.
We too readily jump on bandwagons because they look 'trendy' and virtuous, without considering all the options or issues. All the while, we delay and dither ironically on the decisions that we need to make to generate the clean electricity to power the EVs, or hand them over to hostile foreign powers (China) to build and run.
As much as AOC and Greta (neither whom have any qualifications of knowledge in the field) pontificate about the world ending (now) in 11 years (it won't), we need to think carefully on all these issues before diving headlong into things.
Bear in mind that we were already promised self-driving cars years ago, and they still have a long way to go (an article today came with an admission from developers of the tech that it could be a LONG time before they improved enought to be used everywhere). rarely does any tech get developed on time, even in wartime when the need is greatest, and often a big price is then paid afterwards.
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