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Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - Surrey_Scientist

Hi

Im considering buying a Grey Import Japanese Day Van as a base for a small camper van

Im wanting to do some Wild Camping so looking for a base vehicle with 4wd.

I live within the M25 so need a vehicle that is compliant with the Low Emission Zone and the tighter LEZ regulations that come into force inside the M25 in 2020.

I cant afford a much newer european Euro 6 diesel base vehicle (most of which dont have 4wd)

The newer regulations specify Light Vans or Motorhomes need to be Euro 3 for Particulate Matter.

The petrol versions if these meet Euro 4 so theoretically meet the standards.

However I have read that as these are not UK spec vehicles TFL would be unable to classify/determine the Emissions spec for these and so one would get charged the £100 daily charge.

I am assuming a similar scenario would currently exist for the new Inner Londin ULEZ.

Does anyone own one of these vehicle types and have experience of. crossing into the ULEZ and have any experience of proving the Euro Emissions class ?

Or are there any older base vehicles (7-10yrs old is my budget) I could consider which would bec suitable.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - Engineer Andy

The 2020 London ULEZ isn't inside the M25 boundary, the vast majority of which is outside of the Greater London and thus not in the Mayor's juristriction. The new boundary only extends to the edge of London:

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/about-t...z

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/changes...6

Unless you actually live within Greater London or would choose to regularly drive it into that area (not sure why if its a leisure vehicle), I doubt if you would need to have one that qualified unless your travels take you to other locations that will adopt the same emissions rules, which is possible. I'm sure you could use the M25 (even though part of it does skirt the edge of London on the map) driving to other places without penalty, but best to confirm that with TfL.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - dan86

The current LEZ is for vehicles over 3.5 tone gvw and covers most if not all of greater London the ULEZ is the same area as the congestion charge zone and the upcoming proposed ULEZ will be inside of the south and north circular or what is known as inner London. Tou will still be allowed to drive on the north and south circular roads just not in then unless your vehicle meets euro6 diesel emissions or euro 4 petrol emissions or you wish to pay the £12.50? Fee for entering it.

The congestion charge zone has had no effect on congestion and I see this having no effect on emissions it's all about milking as much money out of motorists as possible. The only Londerns to be affected by this ate the ones who can't afford a newer car.

People were pushed in to buying diesel cars by previous government's and now the goal posts have been moved yet again.

Rant over!

Edited by dan86 on 31/05/2019 at 20:22

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - Surrey_Scientist

I do live inside Greater London (inside M25) so would be exiting and entering the LEZ almost every journey with it

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/changes...z

The TFL Website says :-

"From 26 October 2020, LEZ standards will be:

  • Euro VIfor buses and coaches over 5 tonnes, lorries and other specialist vehicles over 3.5 tonnes - this is the same as the ULEZ standard (these vehicles will no longer need to pay a separate ULEZ charge)
  • Euro 3for PM for larger vans and minibuses - this is the same as the current LEZ standard"

And if you look at this it goes into more detail (look at the ** footnote)

tfl.gov.uk/ruc-cdn/static/cms/documents/lez-ulez-c...f

Where it includes Motorhomes and vans over 1205kg unladen as needing to meet Euro 3 for PM

Im pretty certain all these vehicles would be over 1205kg unladen. And once converted would have to be registered as Motorhome.

How do you prove its Euro 3 if its not UK Spec ?

Edited by Surrey_Scientist on 31/05/2019 at 20:48

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - Engineer Andy

One of my points was that the M25 isn't the boundary of whose in London and who isn't, from someone who lived in a small town in south Hertfordshire for 30 years that is inside the M25 but outside of London. Fair enough if you are in the small part of the southern section that is.

How often would you be using it? Is it worth hiring (a newer, complaint) one if you're not going to go camping that often? Best of luck anyway.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - RT

Wild camping is of course illegal in England & Wales and now causing serious issues in Scotland so likely to face restrictions there.

Grey imports are going to be hit hard by the increasing number of LEZ/ULEZ in UK cities due to lack of EU Type Approval - but even those with EU Type Approval will face ever-tightening Euro emission levels so what make be ok now could soon be classified for charging.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - daveyjp
Wild camping in anything but a tent on private land is also illegal in Scotland.

The clue is in the word 'camping', i.e. sleeping in a tent.

Driving your camper off road onto any piece of land and pitching up is not what wild camping is all about. This activity is ruining places like Calgary Bay on Mull, where drivers of 7m long twin axle behemoths think they are 'wild camping' as do the 10-15 others who join them.

Edited by daveyjp on 31/05/2019 at 23:26

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - RT
Wild camping in anything but a tent on private land is also illegal in Scotland. The clue is in the word 'camping', i.e. sleeping in a tent. Driving your camper off road onto any piece of land and pitching up is not what wild camping is all about. This activity is ruining places like Calgary Bay on Mull, where drivers of 7m long twin axle behemoths think they are 'wild camping' as do the 10-15 others who join them.

"camp" - a place with temporary accommodation of huts, tents, or other structures, typically used by soldiers, refugees, or travelling people.

Camping doesn't just refer to tents, it includes caravans and motorhomes.

But I totally agree with your point about wild camping ruining beautiful places.

Edited by RT on 01/06/2019 at 10:41

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - nellyjak

Putiing aside the LEZ/ULEZ and wild camping issues...you wouldn't be disappointed with any of the vehicles on your list.

I've had my imported V6 4wd Estima for 3 years now..utterly brilliant and so much bang for your bucks...pure luxury.. I love it and would easily go down the import route again if I wanted to change my Estima (I don't).

It has recently passed it's third consecutive MOT without any advisories and the emissions are frankly SO clean that it ought to pass any emission zone standards..but of course it's an import so "rules" apply.

It isn't as scary or risky as many would have you believe..just do your homework and if you aren't doing it yourself then choose a good importer...I did and it paid dividends.

Good luck

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - daveyjp
In terms of wild camping in Scotland it only applies to tents.
Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - CHarkin

Wild camping is of course illegal in England & Wales and now causing serious issues in Scotland so likely to face restrictions there.

Not sure what the definition of wild camping is, I take it to mean camping not in a camp site and away from any amenities. or doing what the bears do.

We have been wild camping in Scotland a number of times in hired VW camper vans. If you avoid mid summer its great, quiet roads and loads of places to park up. We tend to use the car parks layed out for tourists with tables and bench seat, well off the road not to be disturbed by traffic. Park up mid evening and gone without trace by mid morning.If there are any by-laws against this I have never heard anything and the worst that would happen is you would be asked to move on. Got to watch that bottle of wine with dinner if you park in a lay-by.

I cycle up Loch Lomond regularly and see the carnage caused by what must be hooligans out for a p***-up in a tent on a Saturday night. The place strewn with drinks cans, disposable BBQs and half a dozen "festival" tents left in taters and even dry stone walls destroyed by 4x4 SUVs. Personally I would go round at 4am with a water canon. The only restriction on camping is you have to get a permit to camp within the national park and a warden patrols to keep an eye on things, its a minimal charge.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - RT

Wild camping is of course illegal in England & Wales and now causing serious issues in Scotland so likely to face restrictions there.

Not sure what the definition of wild camping is, I take it to mean camping not in a camp site and away from any amenities. or doing what the bears do.

We have been wild camping in Scotland a number of times in hired VW camper vans. If you avoid mid summer its great, quiet roads and loads of places to park up. We tend to use the car parks layed out for tourists with tables and bench seat, well off the road not to be disturbed by traffic. Park up mid evening and gone without trace by mid morning.If there are any by-laws against this I have never heard anything and the worst that would happen is you would be asked to move on. Got to watch that bottle of wine with dinner if you park in a lay-by.

I cycle up Loch Lomond regularly and see the carnage caused by what must be hooligans out for a p***-up in a tent on a Saturday night. The place strewn with drinks cans, disposable BBQs and half a dozen "festival" tents left in taters and even dry stone walls destroyed by 4x4 SUVs. Personally I would go round at 4am with a water canon. The only restriction on camping is you have to get a permit to camp within the national park and a warden patrols to keep an eye on things, its a minimal charge.

Sadly, many of your like-minded fellows leave plenty of traces, including faeces - none of them contribute much to the local economy and are less welcome now than they used to be.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - Metropolis.
If i were you I would add the Mitsubishi Delica to your list, they’re based on old Shogun running gear so would be perfect for getting to those hard to reach spots

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20190524831...4
Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - focussed

Working towards legalising wild camping in england and wales.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/wild-camping-england-wales/

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - nellyjak
If i were you I would add the Mitsubishi Delica to your list, they’re based on old Shogun running gear so would be perfect for getting to those hard to reach spots www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20190524831...4

Great vehicle I agree...but always seemed a little too narrow for my liking...as was the Mazda Bongo.

The example in your autotrader link looks lovely though.

I did a lot of research when looking for my vehicle and the choices on the OP's list always impressed me more...and I chose the Estima as being just right for me.

Wasn't too difficult tbh as I've been a Toyota fan for many years.

Edited by nellyjak on 02/06/2019 at 07:52

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - badbusdriver

Great vehicle I agree...but always seemed a little too narrow for my liking...as was the Mazda Bongo.

That is as they are supposed to be. I have not looked into this to confirm the specifics, but i'm fairly sure the car taxation system in Japan works by width. From looking into the dimensions of various Japanese cars, there seem to be 3 width points. Up to 1.5m (Kei car), up to 1.7m and around 1.8m. The last of those covers the largest domestic market MPV's, like the Toyota Alphard, Nissan Elgrand, etc. The middle figure covers the Mazda Bongo (and Ford Frieda), Honda Stepwagon, Toyota Noah etc. But it also covers oddities like the Toyota Regius which is essentially the Hiace with around 9cm sliced out of the width giving proportions even odder than the others (with it being so tall). Those with a good memory and of a nerdy dispostion may recall that the 2nd gen Mitsubishi Shogun/Pajero was available in two 'widths' (neither of which affected the cabin space), the bulk of the UK market cars having wider arches to give it a bit more visual muscle, but without those fatter arches, it was less than 1.7m wide.

This is why a Japanese import MPV appeals to me, because it fills a gap pretty much completely vacated by European marques, that is for folk who need or want more than 5 seats but, for whatever reason, also need a narrow car (in my case, this is due to living on a narrow street with parking both sides). Because of how narrow some of these cars are, especially the ones under 1.7m wide, a pinch of salt is needed to accept descriptions of '8 seater', as three abreast on each rear bench is going to be pretty cosy!. But if you think of them as being '6 + 2 seaters', that makes much more sense, and those extra 2 seats will be handy to have even if you wouldn't want to do a long journey 8 up.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - nellyjak

Great vehicle I agree...but always seemed a little too narrow for my liking...as was the Mazda Bongo.

That is as they are supposed to be. I have not looked into this to confirm the specifics, but i'm fairly sure the car taxation system in Japan works by width. From looking into the dimensions of various Japanese cars, there seem to be 3 width points. Up to 1.5m (Kei car), up to 1.7m and around 1.8m. The last of those covers the largest domestic market MPV's, like the Toyota Alphard, Nissan Elgrand, etc. The middle figure covers the Mazda Bongo (and Ford Frieda), Honda Stepwagon, Toyota Noah etc. But it also covers oddities like the Toyota Regius which is essentially the Hiace with around 9cm sliced out of the width giving proportions even odder than the others (with it being so tall). Those with a good memory and of a nerdy dispostion may recall that the 2nd gen Mitsubishi Shogun/Pajero was available in two 'widths' (neither of which affected the cabin space), the bulk of the UK market cars having wider arches to give it a bit more visual muscle, but without those fatter arches, it was less than 1.7m wide.

This is why a Japanese import MPV appeals to me, because it fills a gap pretty much completely vacated by European marques, that is for folk who need or want more than 5 seats but, for whatever reason, also need a narrow car (in my case, this is due to living on a narrow street with parking both sides). Because of how narrow some of these cars are, especially the ones under 1.7m wide, a pinch of salt is needed to accept descriptions of '8 seater', as three abreast on each rear bench is going to be pretty cosy!. But if you think of them as being '6 + 2 seaters', that makes much more sense, and those extra 2 seats will be handy to have even if you wouldn't want to do a long journey 8 up.

I'm well aware of all that you say BBD....and I meant that it seemed narrow for the use I wanted it to have...ie..we use our Estima in a campervan format too so width was important.

The Japanese are masters of getting much in little (or narrow) for the reasons you have pointed out..but the vehicles are superb and so useful.

In addition to that you get such a "fully loaded" vehicle...extremely well built and usually so well looked after....naturally the undersides of JDM vehicles don't suffer the same salt ridden miseries as UK/European cars.

I saw underneath my Estima PRIOR to it being undersealed...it was almost immaculate.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another JDM import.

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - CHarkin

A few years ago we were thinking of buying a camper van and visited a company in Falkirk who's sole business was doing conversions. You could buy one of their base vehicles or bring your own and they converted it to your spec.

We had a guided tour round the factory with the owner who was a big fan of Japanese imports, he said they were easier and cheaper than the traditional VW transporter. All the windows are in place all the insulation and sound deadening were already there ever a lot of the side panel trims could be used. The end result was a smoother quieter van.

One reservation I have with these is they all seem to have big 2.5 or 3.00 L engines with auto boxes, what sort of mileage do you get from them?

Toyota Alphard/Granvia/Estima Nissan Elgrand - Grey Import Day vans & M25 LEZ/ULEZ - nellyjak

A few years ago we were thinking of buying a camper van and visited a company in Falkirk who's sole business was doing conversions. You could buy one of their base vehicles or bring your own and they converted it to your spec.

We had a guided tour round the factory with the owner who was a big fan of Japanese imports, he said they were easier and cheaper than the traditional VW transporter. All the windows are in place all the insulation and sound deadening were already there ever a lot of the side panel trims could be used. The end result was a smoother quieter van.

One reservation I have with these is they all seem to have big 2.5 or 3.00 L engines with auto boxes, what sort of mileage do you get from them?

He was right.!....and the VW Transporter is ridiculously expensive for what it is..

and yes, many of the vehicles are indeed of the larger c.c variety...but that's what attracts me as they are largely bullet-proof, reliable and long lasting .. these trucks are not lightweights. my own Estima weighs in at around the 2 tonne mark but has a 3 litre Quad-cam 220 BHP engine to pull it....it does so with surprising ease and nimbleness....quietly and without fuss.

I assume you are asking about MPG.?..in my case...anywhere between 20-35 ..in Winter with shorter runs, electric everything on then I can easily see 20/22 mpg..but on a good mixed run in Summer I can achieve 33/35 mpg.

I have a simple philosophy...if it needs fuel...it gets it......TBH the mpg is of no real concern to me...I only do about 5k miles per annum so I'm happy to pay the price at the pumps...I didn't buy it for economy...I bought it for sheer luxury and comfort...oodles of power..and the usual Toyota reliability I've come to expect.

Won't be everyone's cup of char...but for me it's just about my perfect machine.