Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Fri 10 May 2019 15:08
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - branditx

I made a post a few days ago about my engine shutting off as I was getting on the motorway.

Since the a Citroen garage has confirmed the cambelt and timing belt both snapped and that they have never seen this before in a vehicle with only 30K miles. They said they will likely put it down to premature engine failure and then send the report to Citroen to see what they will offer.

My question is, has anyone ever dealt with this? What are we likely to be offered? Do we have any rights in this situation such as demanding a refund of the value of the vehicle, etc?

In my view, the manufacturer should be offering us above and beyond the value of the car as we had our two young daughters in the car and this could have ended very badly. I don't know how much or even what I should be expecting and I'd just like to be prepared when they come back with some type of solution or offer next week.

Thanks in advance for any replies or thoughts!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 15:36
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - oldroverboy.

Thoughts..

How old is the car?

Has it been serviced annually by a Citroen dealer on time and within mileage limits?

Petrol? Diesel? If diesel lots of short runs? oil contamination?

If it has been fully serviced and is close to the warranty end (if out of warranty) Citroen might make a gesture (or pay), If in warranty would almost certainly pay, subject to servicing requirements having been met.

They are not obliged to offer compensation because you have been "frightened a bit".

Leave the emotional bit out of your dealings with Citroen and the dealer.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 17:28
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - branditx

The car is 3 1/2 years old, warranty was up in December. Emotions aside, Citroen has an obligation to build vehicles that don't just stop working. There should be some guarantee on parts that are meant to last until at least 100K miles. The vehicle has been fully serviced, diesel, used for short to medium runs?

So, to be more to the point, I am wondering if there are any consumer rights I am entitled to in a situation like this in the event Citroen comes back and say only offers to foot half the bill. I'm not prepared to pay thousands of pounds for an engine that prematurely broke.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 18:25
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - oldroverboy.

As I said before, If you have followed the terms of the warranty regarding Main Dealer servicing at the correct intervals, then there is a good chance that Citroen will pick up the bill, but as I said, leace emotion out of the equation and be courteous with the dealer.

If you have them on your side, it helps a lot, sometimes a manufacturer will pay part and the dealer will pay the rest. That is what we did sometimes with JLR products

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 18:31
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - Andrew-T

As above. The maker should reimburse you for what happened (and shouldn't have) but you can't reasonably expect reimbursement for what conceivably might have happened but didn't. No-one would be left in business if that was the case.

Incidentally the 'cambelt' and 'timing belt' are the same thing. Is that what the garage actually said?

Edited by Andrew-T on 10/05/2019 at 18:33

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 19:02
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - Bromptonaut

As others have said you can only expect to be compensated for cost of putting your car back on the road. Having an engine stop dead is a bit 'exciting' but you've no claim for what might have happened.

Do you know what the failure sequence was and how much damage has been done. I had cambelt let go on my then four and a half year old Xantia HDi 110 in 2005. Sequence there was that cambelt pulley on crankshaft failed, split where there was a steel/rubber/steel sandwich. Camshaft lost timing but frangible followers apparently saved serious damage to pistons. Got goodwill payment from dealer covering most of cost but as they'd advised against replacing the pulley when belt was changed at 5 years I should have gone in harder.

Engine was rebuilt and ran perfectly well for another 80k.

Also had a near miss on an IDI Berlingo where a worn idler pulley caused belt to fray. On that occasion I was aware of a noise like a stone in tyre but proportionate to engine rather than road speed. Caught it in time. Car was too old and too high mileage for contribution.

See what they offer and return for more advice if not satisfactory. Your consumer rights to a vehicle that's fit for purpose trump any warranty. Remember those rights are against the dealer not Citroen.

Citizens Advice website (citizensadvice.org.uk) has some useful content as does that of Which? (which.co.uk)

Keep us posted/

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 19:19
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - catsdad
In your other thread in Technical you said that the December service was by a non-Citroen garage.
If so you will be very lucky indeed to get a goodwill contribution. Goodwill is in addition to any legal rights so manufacturers can set their own rules incuding full franchised history.

You may have a wider legal claim as it is a premature failure. Again however the lack of a franchised history may be an issue. For example if incorrect spec oil has been used, can Citroen argue that this affects loads on the belts? Hopefully someone more legally and/or technically competent can comment.

You need to see what Citroen offer. I fear you may need to adjust your expectations as to what you can readily achieve. But good luck.




PS was the non-Citroen garage the one that sold you the car (and when was the sale?) or are there three parties - Citroen, selling dealer and the garage that serviced it?

Edited by catsdad on 10/05/2019 at 19:28

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 20:07
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - gordonbennet

This is an expensive example of why so many people are paying their hard earned to makers who offer more than a measly 3 year's warranty, a Kia for example would still have over 3 years of maker's warranty to run.

Makes sense to keep full main dealer servicing up for at least a year after warranty expires, which shows goodwill on the buyers part leading to a better chance of goodwill from the maker, especially if you have the dealer (who you've the given service work to) batting for you as well.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Fri 10 May 2019 20:35
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - oldroverboy.

This is an expensive example of why so many people are paying their hard earned to makers who offer more than a measly 3 year's warranty, a Kia for example would still have over 3 years of maker's warranty to run.

Makes sense to keep full main dealer servicing up for at least a year after warranty expires, which shows goodwill on the buyers part leading to a better chance of goodwill from the maker, especially if you have the dealer (who you've the given service work to) batting for you as well.

And the car doesn't cost any more to buy either,,,

previous orb cars

Kia rio 7 years warranty

Kia venga 7 years warranty

sold with full kia service history for top book both of them. current buggy... mg zs 7 year warranty, and no quibbles with my niggles all being fixed.

Edited by oldroverboy. on 10/05/2019 at 20:36

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 01:20
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - Big John

Kia rio 7 years warranty

Kia venga 7 years warranty

current buggy... mg zs 7 year warranty

Indeed,

Unfortunately for me as I get older - fitting into the car OK is my top priority which has attracted me to VAG cars over the past few years. I got away with some cars I can't drive now when I was younger but age has caught up with me.

I've struggled with Kia cars but must admit I've not tried an MG ZS yet

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 09:08
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - oldroverboy.

Kia rio 7 years warranty

Kia venga 7 years warranty

current buggy... mg zs 7 year warranty

Indeed,

Unfortunately for me as I get older - fitting into the car OK is my top priority which has attracted me to VAG cars over the past few years. I got away with some cars I can't drive now when I was younger but age has caught up with me.

I've struggled with Kia cars but must admit I've not tried an MG ZS yet

Bags of room. 6'2" and 96ish kilos

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 10:58
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - FP

"Citroen has an obligation to build vehicles that don't just stop working."

Although I wouldn't want to minimise the unpleasantness of what happened, I doubt whether the statement above is true, from a legal or any other perspective.

"In my view, the manufacturer should be offering us above and beyond the value of the car as we had our two young daughters in the car and this could have ended very badly."

This too is unrealistic. As others have said, it is probably best to calm down, forget any sense of outrage and concentrate on getting what you can from the manufacturer, have the car repaired and if you have lost confidence in the car and/or the marque, sell it and buy something else.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 12:16
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - badbusdriver

There is another 'elephant in the room', which has not been touched upon yet. That is the customers (the OP in this case) responsibility to themselves (if nothing else), to look into whether or not any potential purchase is likely to be reliable long term. In the case of Citroen, they generally do not fare well in reliability or customer satisfaction surveys. This is a well known fact, and supporting information on this is widely and freely available through internet research.

As to Citroen's 'obligation to build vehicles that don't just stop working'?. Not really, their obligation stops when the warranty is up. Car manufacturers want customers to get a new car every 2 or 3 years so it isn't really in their interest to make cars which owners will want to keep long term. As long as folk are willing to plow large amounts of money into getting the latest 'it' car, without giving any consideration to things like long tem reliability, or indeed whether or not the car is actually any good, this will continue to be the case for most makers. Cynical?, yes, but also true!.

I don't have anything against the Picasso, it is one of the few cars which has been properly designed to be a family car, as opposed to something which flatters the drivers ego, and that is only to be applauded. But alas, Citroen don't seem to be able to make cars which last, being to complex for their own good. For this reason, there is no way i'd keep a new Citroen beyond the length of its warranty. If i wanted a car (of that type), to keep long term, it would without a doubt be a Toyota Verso. No, it isn't as well designed as a family car, but it will just keep on working.

Edited by badbusdriver on 11/05/2019 at 12:18

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 12:20
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - SLO76
I’d be interested to find out if the non-franchise dealer who last serviced it used the correct oil or if they’ve just binged any old thing in it along with a cheapo oil filter without a non-return valve. If the cam has suffered oil starvation this would explain the failure which is to be fair to this engine rather unusual, in fact I’ve never personally heard of a case of it.

I’ll hazard a bet that the last service is a factor here and Citroen will be right to reject any goodwill claim. As with any complex turbocharged engine a full main dealer or genuine specialist service history is vital.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 14:32
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - Bromptonaut

I've now read the thread in technical which covers three points not evident in this one:

  1. OP is in Scotland
  2. It's a diesel engine
  3. Dealer is named.

The first of those may affect OP's Consumer Rights. Check with Citizens Advice Scotland's website.

Second suggests damage will be more serious than in a petrol engine but it's possible frangible/sacrificial cam followers may have saved pistons and valves.

If dealer has offered 25% from get go I'd guess they're worried they might be up for more under consumer law.

OP's first step is to get a 100% clear diagnosis of problem, inc failure sequence if possible, and cost to repair.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 14:53
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - SLO76
*binged... read bunged
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 17:36
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - skidpan

Since the a Citroen garage has confirmed the cambelt and timing belt both snapped

The cambelt and the timing belt are the same part, just different ways of referring to it. Both cannot have snapped since there is only one.

The other belt is what most refer to nowadays as the auxiliary belt which drives things such as the alternator, aircon, water pump, power steering (if its hydraulic). Its sometimes called the serpentine belt because of the tortuous path it has to follow. Years ago it was called the fan belt since it drove the fan but that practice died out shortly after the Ark was registered.

You either misheard, misunderstood or the garage are liars. Which is it?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 18:18
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - John F

As per Bromptonaut above, the OP needs to get a precise diagnosis. Modern belts don't just break for no reason at a mere 30,000 miles. One of the pulleys or cogwheels it drives probably broke or seized - a rare failure possibly due to an undetected metal casting weakness.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Sat 11 May 2019 18:45
Citroen C4 Picasso - Citroen Picasso Camshaft Snapped at 30K Miles - FoxyJukebox

Agreed-although I would not mind betting that even pulleys and cogwheel checks are not on a Picasso maintenance check list-whoever does the service-a dealer or an independent.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Looking for a garage you can trust? Honest John's Good Garage Guide has thousands of reader recommended garages, plus how-to guides and tips on servicing.

The Good Garage Guide