“When I upgraded from my ten year old car that was beyond repair to a new one, mpg went from 47 mpg to 65 mpg, as measured by me. That saving paid for the new car as I drove a good distance each day. The new car was also much safer in crash tests, a benefit worth having on its own never mind the better economy.”
Over one year the difference between 47mpg and 55mpg while fuel costs 120p is £422.07 which isn’t anywhere near close to covering the cost of a new car. It’s only a fraction of the depreciation and interest cost. Don’t get me wrong I fully understand the need for reliability when you do so many miles but your depreciation costs are much much higher due to that high annual mileage making a cheaper older car that has little value left vastly cheaper to run despite the higher fuel costs.
I’d far rather pile that sort of mileage into a £3-£4K Honda Civic 1.8 (45-50mpg) or a Toyota Avensis 1.8 (will do 50mpg on a run) than a new £25k car that’ll lose £20k in the first 5yrs with that mileage.
|
“When I upgraded from my ten year old car that was beyond repair to a new one, mpg went from 47 mpg to 65 mpg, as measured by me. That saving paid for the new car as I drove a good distance each day. The new car was also much safer in crash tests, a benefit worth having on its own never mind the better economy.” Over one year the difference between 47mpg and 55mpg while fuel costs 120p is £422.07 which isn’t anywhere near close to covering the cost of a new car. It’s only a fraction of the depreciation and interest cost. Don’t get me wrong I fully understand the need for reliability when you do so many miles but your depreciation costs are much much higher due to that high annual mileage making a cheaper older car that has little value left vastly cheaper to run despite the higher fuel costs. I’d far rather pile that sort of mileage into a £3-£4K Honda Civic 1.8 (45-50mpg) or a Toyota Avensis 1.8 (will do 50mpg on a run) than a new £25k car that’ll lose £20k in the first 5yrs with that mileage.
The new car had a lower road tax, by about £150 I think. And the repair bills were non existent whereas the old car was costing a fortune to keep on the road. So yes, the new car was paying for itself. (Okay, if you want to be pedantic, I did not mention maintenance and repair bills. But things such as a replacement cam belt are not cheap.)
Incidentally, I think you assume an expensive car, and not the cheap as chips city car I had. And there is no need to spend £25,000 on a new car, unless you really need a big SUV or large motorway cruiser.
I like small cars as they use less fuel, they are cheaper to buy, they are easier to park and they are cheaper to maintain. And they are more fun to drive IMO.
|
|
<< I like small cars as they use less fuel, they are cheaper to buy, they are easier to park and they are cheaper to maintain. And they are more fun to drive IMO. >>
I'm with you all the way, Leif. But as SLO says, given the miles you travel, buying new is the most effective way to lose value, as after 5 years most of it will have gone. Why not buy a low-mileage 5-year-old and run that for 5 years?
|
|
|
You did say new car so I assumed a new car. It never makes financial sense to buy new if you’re doing a huge mileage like that. 4yrs @ 25k p/a and any new car will be next to worthless. Even a new supermini at say £12k will cost substantially more than a good used example around £3-£4K because of the depreciation.
Yes any car will reach an uneconomic or unreliable stage but my point is that a good cheap used car that’s maybe a bit thirstier and a bit dearer to tax will always be cheaper in such circumstances. If I were commuting 25k a year I’d have a cheaper sub £6k car and run it til it was unreliable. I’d have every faith that my current 9yr old Toyota would serve well for this for many years to come at a far lower overall cost than a new supermini or small hatch.
|
You did say new car so I assumed a new car.
Yes, I bought a new car.
It never makes financial sense to buy new if you’re doing a huge mileage like that. 4yrs @ 25k p/a and any new car will be next to worthless.
Nope.
Even a new supermini at say £12k will cost substantially more than a good used example around £3-£4K because of the depreciation.
Nope. I bought a new VW Up for much less than £12K. I looked into buying a used car. However, city cars are in demand, and when I saw how much dealers wanted for an approved car, it worked out no cheaper than buying new. I don't like non approved dealers. In the past I've looked at them and found too many issues. As for buying privately, it MIGHT be cheaper, maybe not, but there is hassle and risk if you cannot assess a car.
My first car was an approved Nissan Micra, bought back when the dinosaurs ruled the Earth. I worked out that when it blew up at 10 years old, buying new would have been no more expensive overall.
Yes any car will reach an uneconomic or unreliable stage but my point is that a good cheap used car that’s maybe a bit thirstier and a bit dearer to tax will always be cheaper in such circumstances. If I were commuting 25k a year I’d have a cheaper sub £6k car and run it til it was unreliable. I’d have every faith that my current 9yr old Toyota would serve well for this for many years to come at a far lower overall cost than a new supermini or small hatch.
I think that for bigger and more expensive cars, you can save a lot by buying second hand if you buy wisely. Obviously a big SUV depreciates massively, whereas that isn't really the case for city cars since they are not expensive to start with. And of course my calculation was based on buying a car with a recent 3 pot petrol engine that was far more efficient than the 4 pot lump in my previous car.
|
I’ve stood and watched high mileage commuter city cars like this go through the ring plenty of times in the past and I can assure you there’s little demand and prices are low. Typical buyers want low mileage with only absolute bargain hunters interested in big miles. At 4yrs old and with 100k plus it’ll fetch peanuts. But that’s fine if you intend on keeping it well beyond this as the depreciation curve will almost flatten. These are very good little cars, I get your logic but again even at £9k if you got a great deal on a boggo base model will turn into £2k very quickly at 25k p/a.
I do agree that the savings to be had on nearly new/pre reg are much smaller on city cars and often with these in mind it makes sense to buy new but I still maintain that a good cheap used car would be cheaper to run despite higher fuel costs. Perhaps a 3-4yr old Kia with a good chunk of unlimited mileage warranty left or a decent 3-4yr old Yaris with a bit of the 5yr warranty remaining. I wouldn’t have bought new, I’d’ve bought something that’s already lost most of its value but again it would be a dull old world if we agreed on everything.
Edited by SLO76 on 12/03/2019 at 13:59
|
I’ve stood and watched high mileage commuter city cars like this go through the ring plenty of times in the past and I can assure you there’s little demand and prices are low. Typical buyers want low mileage with only absolute bargain hunters interested in big miles. At 4yrs old and with 100k plus it’ll fetch peanuts.
As said in t'other post, my 6 year old VW Up with 130,000 miles on the clock fetched just under £2,000 and had I sold privately, I could have got more. Not part exchange BTW, I was offered £1,000 PE against my Polo.
But that’s fine if you intend on keeping it well beyond this as the depreciation curve will almost flatten. These are very good little cars, I get your logic but again even at £9k if you got a great deal on a boggo base model will turn into £2k very quickly at 25k p/a. I do agree that the savings to be had on nearly new/pre reg are much smaller on city cars and often with these in mind it makes sense to buy new but I still maintain that a good cheap used car would be cheaper to run despite higher fuel costs. Perhaps a 3-4yr old Kia with a good chunk of unlimited mileage warranty left or a decent 3-4yr old Yaris with a bit of the 5yr warranty remaining. I wouldn’t have bought new, I’d’ve bought something that’s already lost most of its value but again it would be a dull old world if we agreed on everything.
My experience of small cars is that they fall apart after 7 years and repair bills become large. My first car was a Nissan Micra, the old mini style, described by many as bullet proof, bought used approved, but at ten years old it basically fell to pieces. All my cars are regularly serviced, and driven sympathetically. But roads here get very salty in winter, and the road surfaces are often poor.
I can't comment on bigger cars such as a Ford Mondeo etc.
Edited by Leif on 12/03/2019 at 16:33
|
|
|
|
“Incidentally, I think you assume an expensive car, and not the cheap as chips city car I had. And there is no need to spend £25,000 on a new car, unless you really need a big SUV or large motorway cruiser.”
Have you seen the list price of new cars lately? A good SUV is well over £30k and even a fairly modest family hatch like a Golf is £20k plus. A supermini like a Jazz or a Polo with a bit of spec is £17k plus and even a tiny city car like an Aygo is over £11k! Even with the latter if you’re doing 25k a year it’ll lose £8-9k in 3yrs, far more if you’ve spent more. I’ll never buy new again.
Edited by SLO76 on 12/03/2019 at 11:14
|
“Incidentally, I think you assume an expensive car, and not the cheap as chips city car I had. And there is no need to spend £25,000 on a new car, unless you really need a big SUV or large motorway cruiser.” Have you seen the list price of new cars lately?
Having bought a new VW Polo last year, yes I have.
A good SUV is well over £30k and even a fairly modest family hatch like a Golf is £20k plus. A supermini like a Jazz or a Polo with a bit of spec is £17k plus and even a tiny city car like an Aygo is over £11k! Even with the latter if you’re doing 25k a year it’ll lose £8-9k in 3yrs, far more if you’ve spent more. I’ll never buy new again.
Nope. I sold my 6 year old VW UP with 130,000 miles on the clock for just under £2,000. That's not peanuts in my book. And in my experience these small cars do not last long, after seven years they start to fall apart and repair bills get steep.
|
I have considered starting a separate post about the cost of new cars. In the late 1990’s there was a good deal of controversy about the cost of new cars in the UK when the exact same models were considerably cheaper in Europe. The cost of new cars came down and at the age of 48 I found I could at last afford my very first brand new car. Subsequently there were some good bargains to be had and I bought my wife a Peugeot 106 followed by a Clio a few years later. Both were £6995 on the road and gave excellent service.
That was back in the early 2000s. Current models have far more toys which must increase the price, but I read that there is now almost nothing new for £10,000 - nothing comparable anyway. And you can’t say that wages have increased in proportion since the financial crash in 2008. And I suppose that once we’ve brexited we can look forward to dearer new prices, but today is not a good day to be talking about Brexit.
|
|
You can never spend too long talking about Brexit. Well, you might think that listening to the news on R4 and other programmes. Hi ho. I’m sick of it.
|
|
|
|
And that’s where leasing comes into the equation. My Aygo on a 4 year lease costs £120 per month + £360 deposit so c£6k total cost, no road tax, full warranty. I’m in the fortunate position where the lease cost isn’t really noticeable so it beats shelling out £12k.
|
And that’s where leasing comes into the equation. My Aygo on a 4 year lease costs £120 per month + £360 deposit so c£6k total cost, no road tax, full warranty. I’m in the fortunate position where the lease cost isn’t really noticeable so it beats shelling out £12k.
It’s not cost effective when higher mileages are factored in however. Take it beyond 10k p/a and the costs shoot up.
£6120 over 4yrs and probably on a very limited mileage plan. I’d sooner have that £3,000 11 plate Yaris I posted a link to earlier. It’ll cost a fraction of that over 4yrs and you’re free from worries about the odd scuff and scrape landing you a big bill at the end of the lease plus you’re free to sell it at any point if your circumstances change unlike a 4yr lease.
I’m not criticising you here, I get why people do it. It’s largely worry free as long as you don’t tend to pick up much bodywork damage. I’ve done it myself before on a bigger car on which the lease worked out less than the depreciation had I bought it I but I’d still rather go secondhand and save money and have greater freedom.
The lease on my Honda CRV 1.6 DTEC SE-T cost me a total of £13,632 over 4yrs. The car had a list price of just over £25,000 and after 4yrs an approximate trade-in value of between £10,500 and £11,000. With a bit of negotiation I could’ve bought marginally cheaper but had I bought a good used one for £14k I’d have it still sitting on my drive owing me nothing while the lease car is gone. Buying used is the way to go.
Edited by SLO76 on 12/03/2019 at 20:50
|
|
|
|
|
“Nope. I sold my 6 year old VW UP with 130,000 miles on the clock for just under £2,000. That's not peanuts in my book. And in my experience these small cars do not last long, after seven years they start to fall apart and repair bills get steep.”
You did the right thing to sell it privately and did well from it but in reality the car was worth what you were offered in part-ex £1,000 and it would’ve struggled to even reach that through the ring. Most people wouldn’t want to go down that road and would’ve just traded it in. Again you cut costs because you make the extra effort but the majority wouldn’t sell it themselves. Not sure what you paid for the original UP! but I still know that running an older car would ultimately be cheaper if done properly.
Let’s say it cost you £9,000 and after 6yrs you got £1700 back so that’s £7,300 loss. I ran a 2003 Honda Civic 1.6 for 4yrs, cost £2,200 I added 40,000 miles so certainly less than you but I sold it for £1,500 which was only £700 in depreciation. It still had less than 80k and I know that it is still running well at over 120,000 miles with its current owner and hasn’t suffered a major failure so even if after 6yrs it was a worth say £500 it would mean a loss of £1,700 compared to an estimate of £7,300. Your fuel difference over 6yrs would be around £2,500 and road tax around £700 that’s almost £3,000 less than the much smaller new car cost to run but that’s without factoring in any interest on loans or any minor repairs the older car needed, in this case it’s been just normal wear and tear service items like brakes and tyres. In fact it was very light on tyres despite the wife’s exuberant driving style.
We are splitting hairs here as £3,000 extra over 6yrs isn’t much but if the Civic were replaced with say a more economical Yaris or Jazz the saving would be larger. I disagree that smaller cars disintegrate at 7yrs old, this is the point I usually buy and have traded loads of them over the years without major issues, particularly with Japanese makes such as Honda and Toyota. A good 7yr old Yaris or Jazz could easily have served well into six figure mileages. But it’s not for everyone, if you’re mechanically minded running an older car can be done for buttons and it’s almost always cheaper than a new car.
I’d be in something like this. With care it could do another 100k and it would cost much less than my old Civic in fuel and tax.
www.gumtree.com/p/cars-vans-motorbikes/toyota-yari...l
Edited by SLO76 on 12/03/2019 at 18:51
|
|
I'm totally with SLO on this one.
No finance, cheap cars that if bought right have been looked after by previous owner/owners with full history and regular oil changes.
Plus if anyone is like me, with more expensive cars, I worry about where I park them because of knocks or dings from other people or cars.
Saying that, I'm still the same with a cheaper car too..... Its just the way I am!!) :)
|
I'm totally with SLO on this one.
No finance, cheap cars that if bought right have been looked after by previous owner/owners with full history and regular oil changes.
A halfway house between buying new and buying several years old is to buy ex-rental from a franchise, with most of maker's warranty still to run. I paid £5K below list for my Pug 207 and it has been faultless for 10 years. I'm not an avid fan of ex-rental cars, but there are some good ones if you rely on the franchise dealers to pick them carefully. And any original gremlins should have been sorted before you buy.
|
|
Nothing wrong with ex lease stock, the vast bulk of nearly new cars at dealers are exactly that or returns from PCP deals. Just remember to check service histories are genuine, I know a few dodgy types who take lease cars but don’t service them at all. One just scribbles in the service book pretending to be a dealer and amazingly he’s never been caught out.
|
|
|
|
I can only tell you my experience which is that small cars start to fall apart after 7 years and are dead at ten years when subject to my kind of use. I’ve heard people here, including I think you, describe the old Nissan Micra as bullet proof, but mine wasn’t and it was an approved car. It had rust, a failed exhaust, a failed ECU, a failed speedo, and other issues. My Ford Ka fell apart, rust, failed wheel bearings etc.When I mentioned my 6 year old VW Up had done 130,000 miles, many people on this forum were impressed. I searched for second hand cars, but concluded that new works out cheaper. Approved cars are expensive, and not always good, and I am not able to pick a good car from a private sale. I am sure you can pick up a good one privately. I’m not saying you haven’t done better with secondhand, I’m not saying you can’t do well with secondhand, but my experience with small cars is that new is not more expensive.
I am tempted by a Mazda MX5, and if I went for one I’d probably search out a one careful lady owner 5+ years old example.
I know people who buy new cars every three years on PCP. I understand why, but it does cost more, and it’s not for me.
Incidentally, when I chose my VW Polo I really wanted to buy Japanese, but none of them provided the compelling package of VAG. Some lacked AirPlay, some had poor mpg, some had a hard ride etc. So I went for the not quite so reliable but more appealing option.
|
“I can only tell you my experience which is that small cars start to fall apart after 7 years and are dead at ten years when subject to my kind of use.“
Fair enough at 25k p/a most cars will be worn out by the time hit their 7th birthday but one with typical supermini use (under 10k p/a) won’t be and will make a perfectly sound used buy at 7yrs and 60-70k if it’s been looked after.
The K11 Micra I assume you had poor service from was in my experience a very reliable and entertaining little car to own and drive. I never had any bother with them other than the early CVT’s. Loads of driving schools bought them and racked up big mileages with ease and I often seen them coming in against Colts which we offered special deals on for driving instructors. They did rot though and after 120-130k of motorway use I’d expect the front crossmember to be like Swiss cheese. The later Micra shared much with the Renault Clio and wasn’t as robust.
I’d recommend an MX5 to anyone. They’re brilliant little cars. Great fun to drive, reliable and a joy on a nice day. Just watch the rust, even on Mk III’s. They rot like it’s the 1970’s all over again but get a good one and keep it for sunny days and you’ll love it.
I get the appeal of the Polo, I own one. It’s a better car to drive, sit in and look at than a Yaris in my opinion but mine hasn’t been fault free. I’m still a contemplating buying a newer but still used Fiesta 1.25 or Mazda 2 1.5. The Yaris has been ruled out on the grounds that the wife doesn’t like it.
I’m not criticising your choice of car, I like both the UP! and the current Polo but I would do big miles like this differently. In fact I bought that Polo with an initial near 20k p/a commute in mind but when swmbo left Uni she ended up working locally so it didn’t see big miles after the first year was by. It cost £7,200 at 3yrs old with 37k and after almost 4yrs and 40k I’d still be confident in getting £4K privately or £3.5k part-ex easily enough meaning it’s been relatively cheap to run. A new one at the time listed at the guts of £15k making used by far the cheaper option.
Edited by SLO76 on 12/03/2019 at 23:26
|
|
The K11 Micra I bought was four years old, Nissan Approved, 40K on the clock. It lasted 6 more years but cost a lot in maintenance, and was prone to rust. The Ford Ka worked out cheaper in the long run, although repair started costing serious money after 8 years.
I looked at approved VW Polos today, and I'm not convinced there is much saving from buying a 4-5 year old example, when you take into account the short warranty, and the greater wear e.g. a cam belt replacement will be due soon. That assumes of course that you compare it with a car from a broker. I bet most people buying used approved compare the list price. Oh, and the new model has a lot more room inside.
If you find a nice old example, one careful lady owner, kept in a garage, then sure you will probably save buckets of money. I didn't find anything like that on the two occasions I looked. The non approved used cars I saw were a rum bunch. Most dealers would not even allow a test drive.
Anyway, I was pointing out that there are advantages to a new car, whether or not they are significant is for each person to decide.
Edited by Leif on 13/03/2019 at 13:22
|
|
|
|
I should add that you are probably far better than me at choosing a good old car, as are many other people here I bet.
|
I should add that you are probably far better than me at choosing a good old car, as are many other people here I bet.
I'm no expert but it's just common sense.
Full history with lots of paperwork and yearly oil changes.
The MOT history check online is your friend. It will list not only any failures but any advisories. If the same advisories crop up every year, that can hint at if the owner/previous owners have run the car cheaply.
Whether the car has matching or decent tyres and not ditch diver specials.
The normal things like paintwork, bodywork, gap/shut lines, peel back the door rubbers. Check the fluid levels, test drive etc.
Get underneath and have a crawl round.
If it's a private sale, you'll get an inkling from what sort of person they are and how they would have treated the car.
The house is always a good give away. If its well kept and neat and tidy, chances are the same would apply to the car they are selling.
Edited by Nobby Clark on 13/03/2019 at 18:00
|
“I should add that you are probably far better than me at choosing a good old car, as are many other people here I bet.”
There’s comfort and security factor that comes from having a new car too which counts for a lot. I’m confident buying older cars but you can get caught out. You’ve bought the new car I would’ve to do the same duty, that or one of its (usually) cheaper triplets. Be interesting to see how it serves over such a heavy mileage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
