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Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RobJP

Well, our (well-used) Shogun Sport is showing it's age. There's at least one leaky injector, 2 glow plugs are definitely not working (got tested last week), the battery it on it's way out, one hub bearing sounds decidedly unhappy, there's a horrendous amount of rust appearing on the underside (in spite of me doing a decent annual treatment), there's corrosion on brake lines, and (most worryingly of all) the electrics have been flaky for the last few months - and this is definitely NOT down to the battery, it's killed one battery already this year. Put the replacement on and the electrics still not very reliable.

So, we're thinking it's time for a change.

The conundrum is what for ...

It only does about 5-6k per annum, so anything diesel and DPF is out. Realistically, even a pre-DPF diesel is out, due to the increased probability of EGR problems with that low mileage, short trips from cold, etc. So, petrol. Obviously, with low annual mileage and a petrol engine we know we aren't going to be getting brilliant fuel economy figures.

It must have proper 4*4 capability. We aren't bothered if it's permament 4*4 or selectable, but it needs to be able to do wet slopy fields (this is north wales we're talking about), so ideally a low box too. It'll obviously have decent A/T tyres on it as well. Decent ground clearance a must.

Reasonable carrying capacity. Boder collie in the boot, shooting kit regularly, etc.

Towing capacity. Usually only a small trailer, but occasionally a full-size Ifor Wms double axle trailer, with a decent amount of load (so about 1.5 tonnes total towing capacity)

Manual gearbox. It's mainly her car, and she hates automatics with a passion.

Price to roughly £10k.

Now, we've got a couple of ideas, but wanted to see if someone comes up with something that I haven't thought of.

Our main thought is probably the boring choice. Subaru Forester.

The floor is open, ladies and gentlemen. Suggestions welcomed !

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RT

A search on AutoTrader with your parameters gives a plethora of makes/models, albeit many soft-roaders.

A little bigger than the Forester is the Subaru Outback - 200mm ground clearance and a flat belly so it'll slide over most things

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - focussed

Are you sure a full size IW four wheel trailer, loaded only goes 1.5 tonnes?

I would have thought nearer to 2.5 tonnes from recent experience.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - kerbed enthusiasm

Suraru Forester 08-12. The 2.0 petrol will pull 2t. That would certainly be my choice and, in my book, definitely not boring. I nearly went for an Outback last time but it's a very long car which I'd have struggled to fit on my drive. Besides, I much prefer the height afforded by a traditional 4x4.

Edited by kerbed enthusiasm on 29/10/2017 at 10:05

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - badbusdriver

You are severely restricting your choice with it having to be a petrol and manual gearbox with hi-lo ratio's. So many possibilities out there were that not the case, but hey ho!.

Not sure why you think the forester is the boring choice, but it is one of a very few options which fit your requirements.

There is also the suzuki grand vitara which has hi-lo ratio's, this can be had with either a 2.0 (138bhp) or a 2.4 (167bhp) petrol.

I'm pretty sure that both the toyota RAV4 and honda CRV do not have hi-lo, but not sure about the nissan X-trail.

There are also some jeep's which may suit. The cherokee would be the biggest, but it would be with the smallest engine, a 2.4, as all the bigger engined ones were auto. I would guess, given jeep's off road heritage, they would have the hi-lo gearbox, but i'm not 100% sure on that. They would also probably be older (but cheaper) than you'd be thinking about, with the youngest on autotrader being a 2005. The smaller ones (compass and patriot) would be much newer, and again, with the heritage and all, should be very capable off road.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - SLO76
Large manual 4wd with a petrol motor that's capable of towing a fairly heavy trailer and be able to deal with genuine off-road conditions.. not asking much are you?

The issue with going petrol here is that the bulk of them are soft-roaders like the Sportage, CRV or RAV4 and all have limited torque for towing. I'd favour the CRV or Subaru Forester out of this lot but I've a feeling it's not the kind of thing you're after. There's loads of 2.0 petrol CRV's about but according to Autotrader there's only one manual petrol Forester in the country in your price range which weirdly is less than a mile away from my front door.

If I wanted a large 4wd like this I'd go diesel and accept the added risk of DPF issues. Take it for a run once a week and factor the cost of a DPF into the over all cost. It'll be better on fuel which will offset it and despite all the anti diesel hysteria it'll still hold its money better.

Honda CRV 2.2 DTEC, Hyundai Santa Fe or Kia Sorento 2.2 diesels are all good big Lugers but your budget is enough to get a decent Mitsubishi L200 or Toyota Hi Lux.
Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - madf

Nothing wrong with a pre DPF diesel and short journeys IF you buy either Shell or BP premium diesel fuel.. I speak with experience of a Yaris D4D driven very short journeys by my wife over the past 5 years.. And an Italian tune up prior to MOTs.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RT

Or supermarket diesel and some Miller's Diesel Power Ecomax

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RobJP
I'd favour the CRV or Subaru Forester out of this lot but I've a feeling it's not the kind of thing you're after.

No problems with the forester at all - I said it was the 'boring' choice because it's so obvious. We've both had Subarus in the past. I had an Impreza RB5, and SWMBO had a Forester Turbo, both about 1999 - 2002 or so.

Even if I found it 'boring' to drive, I've got the 325d (218bhp) and we've got the Z4 if I want a bit of 'hooligan time'.

We don't want a big pickup, she had one of those a few years ago. Also, I know someone with a modern Isuzu pickup, 2 years old, 12k miles, and it's currently in for a new DPF at a cost of £2500. That's a hell of a lot to budget for, especially if it's going to be on a regular basis

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - SLO76
"Also, I know someone with a modern Isuzu pickup, 2 years old, 12k miles, and it's currently in for a new DPF at a cost of £2500."

That's why I omitted the big Isuzu, low volumes mean fewer aftermarket suppliers and all too often grossely overpriced parts. A DPF should be nowhere near that cost. Subaru are costly for parts too but it's unlikely a petrol model will ever need much more than service items.

Big Honda and RAV4 are safe bets in petrol form. Plenty of them around so aftermarket bits aren't an issue and even dealer parts are substantially less in general. Just not much pulling power in either but as you say you've got the need for speed covered elsewhere anyway.
Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - gordonbennet

May i suggest a test drive in an auto Hilux circa 2009, so pre DPF, the box is just brilliant, coupled to the 3 litre, HL3 spec fine, with decent oil services these don't seem to suffer with EGR problems, 2009 would be after the copper injector seal issues too.

She might find that a different beast altogether from what autos she's tried before, my wife loved it, obviously manual versions out there too, many like ours were privately bought so VAT already paid, and not the typical high mileage abused company donkeys.

The only thing we found was tyre choice is very important due to the tail happy nature of the best.

Commercial VED too @ sensible money.

The only petrol 4x4 i'd suggest would be one of the rare Landcruiser 120 versions, 2004 to 2009, with the 4.0 litre V6, but if you did look at one make your first inspection point is underneath, but that goes for any 4x4 with ladder chassis which you already know.

Edited by gordonbennet on 29/10/2017 at 17:02

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - corax

Toyota Land Cruiser 120 series but it would have to be diesel. I don't hear of short journeys causing problems - best to use premium fuel or millers. Manuals very thin on the ground. V6 petrol is a very strong lump but really rare.

If you want tough and petrol and fairly available it's only really Subaru.

There is the Nissan Xtrail 2.5 petrol which is slightly better than Subaru off road. The only petrols that sneak under tax band L if that bothers you are the automatic CVT's. They dropped the petrol engine in 2009.

There's Land Rover but you wanted a 'proper' 4X4.

edit- GB beats me to it as usual!

Edited by corax on 29/10/2017 at 17:08

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - kerbed enthusiasm

I run a 2.5 petrol X-trail. No low range but then, I've never needed it. It tows a single horse trailer happily enough (not sure of the weight - I'd guess about 1.2t - but there's a noticeable lack of torque. It has a theoretical towing limit of 2t but I'd never go near it. Tends to use a bit of oil when towing. I think they phased out the petrol in about 2009. If I wanted a similar, newer, car the Forester is the closest approximation.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RobJP

An update ...

As SLO pointed out, virtually nothing on Autotrader or other sites. Other options (Jeep, Landcruiser, etc) older than what we've got

However, whilst my better half was driving through Ruthin today (she was dropping off a few things), she was driving past our local 'new' Subaru dealership. Parked up outside is a 2012 Forester for sale. So she decides to stop have a quick look at it.

Looking through the window, it's a manual, and the details say it's a petrol ... 2012 on a 62 plate, full Subaru service history, up on the miles at 87k, but quite tidy ...

redstonecarsales.co.uk/used-vehicle-details/Subaru.../

She's been for a test drive (and likes it), and I dived over after work to have a quick look at it (they were closed). It's even got 4 brand new Bridgestone Dueler tyres fitted to it.

MOT history is immaculate too.

I think we may have a winner. It's even less than 10 miles from home

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - gordonbennet

Nice car, good colour, low range box for your off road towing.

I like seeing newish good quality tyres on a car, usually spells well looked after.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RT

Looks good - nice MoT history with each test done early.

Only negative I can suggest is that it's been traded exactly as its 5-year Subaru warranty has expired - but that may simply have been the owner's long-term plan.

Drive it, inspect it and make your own mind up.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - SteveLee

Jeep Compass 2.0. Ticks all your boxes.

(If they do the small engine in a 4wd version)

Edited by SteveLee on 30/10/2017 at 20:24

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - SLO76
Traded in for another Subaru and has a full service record, probably with the same dealer. Last owner was obviously happy with it and has been flush enough to buy another. With that mileage he/she's not been leasing or on a PCP either so wealthy enough to buy whatever they want yet went for another Subaru. Dealer will only retain very well maintained branded stock with heavy miles up. All sounds good.

Only issue is the mileage which will see the value collapse as it closes in on six figures but with your low usage and I assume intention to keep longterm it'll not be a big issue. I'd personally rather spend £1-£2k more on a low miler that'll be an easier sale when you're done but as said that depends on how long you want to keep it and these are rather thin on the ground in the spec you want, largely because people keep them til they die, which takes a very very long time.

Just be thorough when checking there's plenty of life left in that clutch, it could last 2,000 miles or 100,000 and it's not cheap. Also get under it to see if there's any sign of corrosion under way. These are often farmers wives hacks and many spend their lives thick with muck.

Edited by SLO76 on 30/10/2017 at 21:52

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - Avant

Looks good: with your lowish mileage a newer high-miler should suit you well. The chances are that the owner has liked it and traded it in for another Subaru. And if petrol Foresters ars scarce, finding one at a dealer near you is a bit of luck.

Best to get a test drive for yourself, but if all is well, go for it. Good luck!

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - daveyjp
Good price.

My local dealer has one a year older with more mileage up at £8500.

Edited by daveyjp on 30/10/2017 at 21:54

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - focussed

"It's even got 4 brand new Bridgestone Dueler tyres fitted"

Duellers are not brilliant in the wet or on slimy mud - I am trying to wear mine out so I can go for something a bit more grippy, probably BF Goodrich AT's all terrain.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RT

"It's even got 4 brand new Bridgestone Dueler tyres fitted"

Duellers are not brilliant in the wet or on slimy mud - I am trying to wear mine out so I can go for something a bit more grippy, probably BF Goodrich AT's all terrain.

I don't know about the Dueller H/T fitted to this Forester, but my Touareg came with OE Bridgestone Dueller H/P Sport and my plan was to change for something better asap - but I've been mightily impressed with their grip in all conditions, even towing a 5 tonne motorhome off a very muddy grass campsite.

Bridgestone Dueller is a range of tyres - H/P Sport - H/T 684 II - A/T 001 - and looking at their tread patterns, the H/T could be exactly what RobJP needs - I'd suggest seeing how they perform in RobJP's actual usage pattern before switching as ATs are too extreme for many uses.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - focussed

BFG AT's have the reputation of having very good wet road grip, low tread noise on a dry road, and are effective off road except in extreme deep mud, and they last like no other tyre, according to the L200 off-road community.

Many friends who have 4 wd's over here fit them on various vehicles - a very reliable tyre.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RobJP

An update

Phoned up the garage and they were very happy to get it in the air on the ramps fo me to get underneath it. So I did that last night after work. Absolutely immaculate underneath. I then took it for a short test-drive myself (even though my wife, who is pretty mechanically competent, had already done so) to see what I thought of the clutch, etc. Clutch feels great.

Car is now being bought. SWMBO's private plate is going onto retention, and, if the V5 gets here in time, we'll be doing the swapover this weekend.

Job sorted !

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - SLO76
An excellent car, well bought.
Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - RT

Nice one - enjoy.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - gordonbennet

Sounds a good one, and relationship with garage off to a good start by satisfying the new customer's wishes.

Random choice ? - Replacement (proper) 4*4 - Happy Blue!

Very nice. We had two Foresters in our family and an Outback and we loved themall. Just a pity the newer models are not as charismatic as the ones from 1995 - 2008.