Petrol and diesel ban brought forward to 2030

hissingsid    on 18 November 2020

Will the present government still be in power in 2030, let alone 2035? I predict a period of backsliding fudges and U-turns as 2030 approaches. Let us not forget that the vast majority of vehicles on our roads are not new. Petrol and diesel will be with us long after 2030.

I agree with Andy that Hydrogen technology should be developed as a priority, but we rarely hear it mentioned. Unlike EV's, Hydrogen powered vehicles are not limited by range issues or battery life expectancy.

Sulphur Man    on 18 November 2020

There's no tanglible environment credentials in EVs, beyond the fact they're not burping blobs of cancer into children's faces outside schools. Which is obviously a very good thing.

The sheer weight of the things is the main issue. The Honda E, beautiful city car, weighs near 50% more than a Suzuki Swift, which has a bigger boot.

Electric propulsion is the future, but not in traditional car form.

Simon Stiel    on 18 November 2020

Grand ambitions but what to back it up?

IanProc    on 18 November 2020

I can see the used values of Petrol cars going up steadily from around 2029. Electricians will become the new Plumbers, impossible to get someone round to sort out your Electric car charging or fit one,two, three charging points for the number of cars families own these days. Assuming the infrastructure on your Estate can manage a few hundred kilowatts supply all night.

Who in even a modest flat or maisonette is going to be willing to pay the significant sums to dig up car parks to provide charging points. Will Companies have to spend money to provide charging points?

All this can be done, but the Government is going to have to spend big to make it happen. I can see whoever is in power sliding this 2030 date back by allowing hybrids for longer.

Andyvtr    on 18 November 2020

A further reason why the government is promoting EVs over hydrogen fuel cell cars is to support the National Grid. The future electricity supply network will need 100,000s of EV sized batteries 'plugged in' and available to smooth the peaks and troughs of demand against the intermittency of renewable generation. Your EV will charge and discharge its battery to help maintain a stable grid system through demand side response.

sandskier    on 19 November 2020

I reckon there will be problems like Grenfell Tower, such as politicians wanting to meet one measured target are forgetting a whole set of others (including safety considerations). OK so there may be less air pollution at street level but what will we do with nuclear wastes ? Some partners in nuclear power building programmes have pulled out so you can bet future nuclear generated electricity will not be cheap. The environmental journals I have read indicates that the near term demands of electricity will not all be met by sustainable methods, e.g. wind and solar, and that since the coal fine stations have been decomissioned, we need something like the nuclear method to fill the gap.

Mining all the minerals to produce batteries cannot be classed as sustainable. Tyre wear for heavier car (battery powered as opposed to petrol for instance, have to always carry around a heavy battery instead just a trickle of petrol. The wear result in more dust in atmosphere but this is not measured, only the exhausts from the internal combustion.

It will peanalise the poor. Manufacturers of battery powered cars say the high cost is only at the beginning, the cost per mile will be little. My answer is, that may be tru of the 20,000 mile Rep who runs his car on motorways but I drive only 5000 miles a year and my wife only 1500. The high cost of battery powered car will never be recovered before we will be forced to stop driving due to age related medical conditions.

Among all the government propaganda I have not seen research on how to deal with additional waste from batteries. I envisioned mountains such as refrigerators and discarded bed mattresses; seemingly all good ideas will have their unintended concequences.

I would agree with hydrogen fuel cell appears to be the actual cleanest in terms of environmental pollution so let's push back the government blinkered approach.

Colin Mount    on 23 November 2020

Can you get a stretched Jaguar XJ6 in electric format or will they have to use the number 10 bicycle

   on 23 November 2020

The plan to ban petrol and diesel powered cars by 2030 will be a great vote loser - in 2030 - since the man in the street will be unable to afford to buy one, but the current crop of politicians won't worry since they will be long gone. Those of us with cash to spare should buy up stocks of low mileage petrol and diesel cars come in 2028/29 since there will be a big market for them come 2030

Grumpy old codger    on 23 November 2020

Without a detailed costed plan this policy statement has no credible foundation. Based on what we know now, if implemented, it will mean that people will keep their conventionally powered cars running for decades rather than years because a viable alternative isn't available.

Fijit    on 23 November 2020

If we are still distilling oil to obtain the various chemicals we need, what is going to be done with the large amount of byproduct, petrol and diesel. You cannot not produce petrol and diesel as it is part of the distillation process.

Grumpy Souter    on 23 November 2020

Well I have just purchased a gas guzzling, petrol, 250 hp Jaguar E Pace which
does between 15 and 25 MPG when driven as it should be . Great fun.
I am an old man and I don't care about the young or the rest of the world, I have worked hard and paid all of my taxes all my life and I am entitled to a little enjoyment before the COVID gets me.
At least I am honest not like the green hypocrites who tell us what to do and not do it themselves.

Grumpy old codger    on 23 November 2020

This proclamation was made ahead of the UK hosting the COP26 climate change conference next year. It isn't underpinned by a detailed costed implementation plan and as such represents wishful thinking rather than a credible strategy to help reduce emissions.

Alan Massey    on 23 November 2020

Hi, I totally agree with your comments. I have always felt that the fuel cell is the real green way forward. Not happy about nuclear generation of electricity either. Living as I do in Cumbria I am well aware of the huge cost of decommissioning nuclear power stations and the risks involved. The mining of earth minerals by children is also not acceptable under any condition.

Edited by Alan Massey on 23/11/2020 at 19:42

sharon aitken    on 23 November 2020

i hope this is wrong, we need to keep our diesel cars and petrol. electric cars are rubbish, and there are not enough charge points, and what if you run out of power, these days it is not safe. the government has probably got this wrong, like so many o ther things, they got wrong, especially the covid virus lockdown, what a joke.

   on 23 November 2020

There is only one way to help the environment and that is for everybody to have a cabin allowance this would be for every form including cars home heating flying and anything else that uses and gives off Emissions. The people who cannot afford new cars boilers flying et cetera and don’t use their full carbon allowance can then sell this to others that need more than the allocation.

Daniel Worthy    on 23 November 2020

Lots of people talking about the cars being too expensive and lack of infrastructure, do you think maybe by 2030 it will have moved on quite a bit by then. Plus the fact that they are not banning petrol and diesel just the sale of new cars so petrol and diesel will be around for many years until a government is in a position to do a scrappage scheme for the few remaining fossil fuel cars left in say 2045 ( a new car is only designed to last 7 years) by then it will be second nature to charge your car up just like your phone. With new solid state battery technology they will charge super quick so no issues for people who park on streets etc.

Michael Read    on 23 November 2020

Even if there is enough capacity in the National Grid to cope with the demand for recharging electric vehicles, what about the pollution created in generating it?
Whatever the range of an EV the more important concern is the recharging time, or are we going to forget about long distance driving?
I need a large estate car. This is hard to find in Hybrid form let alone fully electric.
If petrol/diesel new sales are banned how long will it be before the reduced demand sees filling stations forced to close? If this happens where will all the charging points be?
I think that ten years is overly optimistic.

TCCisTCC    on 23 November 2020

If there is a will for change can the following be included: 1) Ban cars from parking on payments. 2) Ban cyclists from roads where there is a parallel cycle lane. 3) Ban cars from parking on corners. (I'm sure that exists but I've never seen it enforced).

4) Make the owners of all vehicles pay the full recycling costs of their vehicles if it has completed less than, say, 70,000 miles when scrapped.

Edited by TCCisTCC on 23/11/2020 at 21:48

J. Mike Rose    on 23 November 2020

Boris's plan to ban petrol and diesel cars from 2030 seemed to me to be just a 'Knee Jerk' reaction to appease the green lobby. There is no way, we will have the charging infrastructure in place by 2030. The UK record on infrastructure is awful. We have the most backward road network in Western Europe. The railways are shoddy and expensive. Crossrail is four years overdue and way over budget.

If we follow the examples above then we may have comprehensive charging points by about 2050! Just in time to be net zero.

The idea of high volume use of electric vehicles seems to me, to be the wrong path to go down, for all the reasons that others have mentioned. Surely we should be using the hydrogen fuel cell. No digging up roads and pavements quick re-fueling. Hydrogen production using 'Green Electricity' which can then be stored as against vast and dangerous battery banks.

J. Mike Rose    on 23 November 2020

Shouldn't there be an advertising standard? That when electric vehicle ranges are quoted there should be two. One being the absolute maximum and the other with the headlamps and heater/aircon on. This would be no different to the Urban - combined cycle etc for IC vehicles as now.

I don't think they will; as the drop I believe, is about a third.

Kelvin Turner    on 24 November 2020

This drive to EV is not worth it on an environmental level, unless the whole world dumps IC engines and goes green. The oil companies certainly won't like it and neither will oil producers like Saudi Arabia etc. Then there is the lost revenue from road tax as EV's are currently zero rated. No shock then that the Chancellor is proposing charging on a drive by the mile basis to make up the lost revenue. That won't impress anyone changing to an EV. Next, charging points. Currently I only see a minimum of charging points in car parks and motorway service areas. The infrastructure needs improving or you're going to get EV's lining up on the inside lane of the motorways waiting to recharge. Next, battery recycling. Currently all the UK EV batteries go abroad for recycling. Next, reliance on wind power and nuclear. When we get no wind, turbines don't turn. Who's going to build all the nuclear power stations? We don't want the Chinese doing it, look at the current pandemic, it's all their fault. Lastly, all this drive to zero emissions will be wiped out in an instant when the next Icelandic volcano erupts. Thank God for motorcycles. They're not affected by the proposals so I'm safe. Oh yes and I'll be buying a 5 litre Mustang on December 31st 2029. Should be cheap as chips by then!!

aethelwulf    on 24 November 2020

Boris is kow-towing to his girlfriend's green agenda in my view. He is trying to score good points as well for the summit next year. No way will he be PM in 2030 or perhaps 2024 the way he is going. The most irritating point to me , who hates waste, is that the majority of the world is not following these ideologies. The UK is very small and so is Europe compared to the rest pf the worlds' emitters of CO2 . China is building coal powered generators but selling us nuclear at an astronomical price. So hypocrisy is typical of politicians who only want good headline that follow whatever trendy issue is on the table. Well, I am getting on in years so by 2030 will be ( hopefully) 83 and still driving. I have a Mondeo Estate 2005 2L petrol still fine and MOT no advisories. Also a Kia Piccanto 2010. I reckon that will still be working by then anyway. I shall change the Mondy at 20 years for a petrol car but without a turbo and as little technology as possible. Looks like a Dacia at the moment.

William Bound    on 24 November 2020

what will happen in a power cut . the only alternative is a diesel generator. Will that be allowed. What about farmers , a battery powered tractor would not last very long working the fields or heavy goods vehicles driving the length of the country and abroad.. Just a thought.

   on 24 November 2020

Yet another "knee-jerk" and poorly thought through initiative to keep the environmentalists on side...look, I am all for reducing pollution, but this is a world-wide issue, and while China and other countries are planning to build more fossil fuelled power stations, it does seem immature to think that we in the UK "going green" will have a major effect on the planet's future.
Admittedly we have to be proactive, but without an infrastructure to support electric vehicles and against the background of a stated determination to depend on intermittently effective electricity generation this is a policy that will lead to major disruption of everyday life (and we already have a taste of that scenario).
A lot of modern cars are quite fuel-efficient and produce comparatively lower emissions, so at least have a programme to remove the more polluting, older vehicles from the parc and let the halfway house of hybrids continue until 2040, and do something about the other major road polluters - trucks, buses and LCVs.
I hate sounding so negative, but car owners are once again bearing the brunt of poor policy. Not everyone can ride a bike to work or do their weekly shop, visit relatives, etc.

Lada    on 24 November 2020

One of the main reasons for this policy is to drive (pardon the pun) as many motorists off the roads as possible. That's why hydrogen is not being supported - because it will allow most of us to keep motoring. Only the wealthy living in urban areas will be able to afford electric cars in future. Everyone else will be forced onto bicycles (brilliant for where I live the other side of the Welsh mountains) or so called public transport. Trendy virtue signalling by a totally disconnected elite which has swallowed whole the insane idea that human beings can control the climate. And will thoroughly enjoy lording it over the proles, as they wait shivering for the daily bus or find that taking your tools to work is not so easy with only a saddlebag to carry them. Climates have always changed - how many ice ages have we had? Today's climate is colder than it was in medieval times and way colder than the days of the dinasour. When, just out of interest CO2, in the atmosphere was much higher than now. Did Shakespeare drive a Jag? What model Range Rover did your average T-rex tootle round in? The biggest greenhouse gas is water vapour. Ending internal combustion engines will reduce CO2 by about 4%. And that's assuming you believe that we, who can't accurately predict the weather, can change the future of the ever changing climate.The whole thing is a totally bizarre example of the madness of crowds, the end of the age of reason. And anyone thinking of investing in petrol cars - forget it. By 2032 all internal combustion cars will be banned or taxed out of existence. Sadly, we have little choice - things would be even worse under Starmer than Johnson. Unless a bunch of northern and midland Conservative MPs send a letter to the chair of the 1922 committee...

Edited by Lada on 24/11/2020 at 21:36

Andyvtr    on 26 November 2020

As 2030 approaches I'll emigrate to whatever country has taken a sensible, well considered, approach to both the transport and energy infrastructure conundrums.

Graham W5    on 30 November 2020

There are three key reasons or switch in to EVS: 1. Climate change: about 33% of UK CO2 is from road transport. It is a world wide problem but the UK should do its bit. Even China has now pledged to be carbon neutral by 2060 and now Biden has taken over as president of USA he has promised to sign up to the Paris accord. Climate change is not temporary the CO2 does not drop out of the air and all the impacts reverse as soon as we stop emitting it: it will impact on many generations to come. 2. Air pollution. Petrol and diesel cars have got cleaner but still emit a nasty mix os toxic and carcinogenic compounds at street level where it concentrates in busy town and city centres where there are people walking, living and working. It is 28,000 to 36,000 deaths a year in the UK are due to air pollution of which road traffic is the main contributor. There is a strong public heath reason to reduce petrol and diesel usage. 3. They are more pleasant to drive people seem so keen to hang onto petrol as if they are being offered a poor substitute, but for most people once you have driven and EV you would not want to go back to a petrol car, they are quiet, you don't have to keep going to petrol stations (I do fill up about once every 3 months), the torque is instant and it is cheap to run. The government will not have made the decision to ban petrol and diesel cars on a whim: the issues will have been considered. So what are the issues or supposed issues: 1. Price. Currently this is a very real issue: typically an EV is £10k dearer than an equivalent petrol car (eg an MG ZS) and whilst you can typically expect to save £100 per month on running costs and whilst over the life of the car EVS are cheaper clearly it takes a number of years to recover the higher initial cost. Cost is reducing, it is expected price parity will be achieved within the next few years and before 2030. There is also currently limited used EVS available, as new sales increase this so used availability will follow. 2. Range anxiety. There are now many EVS with a range in excess of 200 miles. with rapid charging you can add 200 miles in 20 to 30mins. People will say but my diesel car has a 600 mile range and takes 2mins to fill up (actually it takes longer as you need to drive into the petrol station fill up pay drive out) but who drives a car 600 miles without needing a break, most journeys are actually quite short and I wouldn't drive more than about 200miles without a break anyway. With the current network you do however need to plan ahead for a long journey or staying away. 3. lack of charging infrastructure. Mostly people charge at home (and//or at work) so it is only if you are outside the range of the car you nee to use a public charge point. But clearly the public charging infrastructure would be woefully inadequate if half the cars on the UK roads were EVS. It is supply and demand: currently the structure is there to support the small percentage of cars which are EVS but it is increasing as the number of EVS increase: we will not overnight change from being mainly petrol an diesel to being mainly electric: it will be a gradual process. Petrol and diesel cars will not be banned from 2030 you just won't be able to buy a new one. The prediction is that before 2030 most new cars sold will be EVS (same price cheaper running costs, not pollution and for most people nicer to drive) but that most cars on the road will still be petrol or diesel (average life of a car is about 14 years) 4. No off street parking. This is a real issue: about 36% of homes in the UK do not have off street parking. Many councils however are now installing charge points in lampposts for use by residents. 5. Can the grid cope. As already stated those who manage the power are confident yes. it is estimated to need 20 additional megawatts of power would be needed- that’s the equivalent output a reasonably sized offshore wind farm if all cars are electric (which will take many years to reach). This assumes pricing will be used to encourage off peak charging: indeed EVS can be used as back up battery storage: you charge at low demand, cheaper rate and can make a profit by selling back at peak demand. 6. Pollution to generate the additional power. If the UK still generated most of its power with coal this would be a real issue: although there would still be a benefit as we do not direct the pollution from coal fired power stations to street level in out towns and cities. In 20019 5.4% of UK energy was from coal and falling, the remaining coal fired power stations are due to close by 2025: coal is not only a climate change and pollution issue it is now quite expensive: wind is less than half the cost per KWH. 7. Are Hydrogen cells better. Aa with EVS hydrogen cells eliminate tail pipe pollution. I have no doubt hydrogen cells will have their uses but the issues is either the hydrogen is produced from natural gas and still results in CO" emissions or by electrolysis which does not produce CO" as part of the process but takes about 3 times much electricity per miles as that needed per mile for a battery EV. The hydrogen needs to be transported (unless produced on site) and stored with at very low temperatures or at very high pressure. It makes it expense and unlike and EV you are still tied to regular visit to a Fuel station: you cannot just 'refuel' overnight at home. 8. There are not enough mechanics to service them. It is supply and demand again: as demand increases so garages will retrain mechanics 9 Battery replacement. Manufactures generally give a warranty for 8 years but in practice the battery is expected to out last the car (and actually they do) (unless damaged in accident in which case the car will have been written off anyway or develop a fault: some will as with any car part. At the end of the cars life he batteries can be used for a secondary purpose or back up storage: after that the key materials can be recycled. 10. EVS are not the greenest form of transport: they are not. Walking, cycling, using electric trains, tram and busses are all greener. If you were designing a green transport system from scratch there would be no place for the private car. But since people aren't realistically going to give up their cars we need a compromise. .

Edited by HJ Editor on 10/03/2021 at 12:10

Dorset123    on 28 February 2021

The problem with electric cars is the are too expensive and too boring !
How can a electric motor be exciting, I car with an V8 or V12 sounds great and even Porsche with there Taycan have an engine noisy to try and make it sound good.
Volvo have said that the Polestar 2 takes to 50000 miles before it becomes better for the environment so if someone brought a new small petrol car and drove it for 3000-4000 miles a year that will also be better for the environment. And before all the Tesla lovers say they are exciting lets just compare a car to a train who gets all excited about a electric train but what happens when the Flying Scotsman turns up as it did on the Swanage Railway a few years ago totally jammed traffic so people could take a look at it.