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Our C max is a 58 reg and had done just under 24000 miles when the turbocharger failed. The car was out of warranty so we had to pay the £1300 + for repairs. We have contacted Ford and asked why this should have failed and the cause of the failure on a car with such low millage and and not very old. Ford Technical Information Centre have now come back to us and said it is an internal fault and they are unable to confirm the exact cause.They have however said that as the last service was late by 3 months this could have caused / led to the failure. We have always serviced the car regularly however as the car was due its first MOT we decided to wait and bring the service and Mot in line with each other...was this a bad decision on our part! Would appreciate your thoughts on this. Many thanks
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we decided to wait and bring the service and Mot in line with each other...was this a bad decision on our part!
Yes. Ultimately, turbochargers fail due to oil starvation. Whilst it is doubtful that it would have been detected at the service, it would be Ford who failed to discover the problem rather than you who failed to maintain the service schedule. this would make a 'goodwill payment' much more likely.
Vehicle warranties have got a surprising number of holes in them (misuse, fair wear and tear etc.) and a lot of warranty claims are rejected but carried out with a large goodwill contribution to 'loyal' customers ie those that get their vehicles serviced at the Dealership-and on time!.
Unfair? Possibly, but's the price we pay for cheap new cars.
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They have however said that as the last service was late by 3 months this could have caused / led to the failure. We have always serviced the car regularly however as the car was due its first MOT we decided to wait and bring the service and Mot in line with each other...was this a bad decision on our part! Would appreciate your thoughts on this. Many thanks
In truth it probably had no impact on the failure but by not complying with the service schedule you shot yourself in the foot and gave Ford a get out of jail free card. T & C's are in the service book, they usually give you 1000 miles or a month leeway.
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I am convinced that the oil change intervals on modern diesels are far to long, carbon can build up in the oil system clogging the turbo oil feed pipe, whether this was the cause of your problem or not I don't know but personally I would change the oil about twice as often as scheduled.
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I am convinced that the oil change intervals on modern diesels are far to long, carbon can build up in the oil system clogging the turbo oil feed pipe, whether this was the cause of your problem or not I don't know but personally I would change the oil about twice as often as scheduled.
One issue is garages do not use the correct grade oil. On modern diesels it is critical. Small independents tend to have a one oil fits all policy which may be OK for some cars but will create huge issues for cars fitted with a DPF if they are not low SAP oils.
When the wifes car needed a service I rang round and one local dealer was £40 less than the garage we bought the car from. I asked more questions and it turned out they did not use the correct 5w30 fully synthetic C3 spec oil, they used the bulk oil from another brand they sold, cheapo 5w30 semi synthetic. I checked with the manufacturer, use of this oil would invalidate the warranty if we had an engine issue.
For 17 years we have run turbo diesels and have changed the oil at the recomended interval and never had a problem.
As always it pays to check what they are doing, how many owners actually care what oil is used.
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How many oil changes did the car have in 24,000 miles? Was the oil level checked between services?
AFAIK the turbo is not known for blowing on the 1.8TDCI, a Ford engine, in contrast to the 1.6 TDCI, a PSA engine.
The oil is not particularly exotic either, unlike say the VW PD TDIs. My old Focus 1.8TDCI used 5W/30 to ACEA A1/B1, a pretty basic spec, and had a relatively large oil capacity for the size of engine of 5.6 litres, which I guess should help with oil change intervals?
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Isn't the biggest cause of turbo failure the fact that many people do NOT allow the enginge to run at low revs for a while, and that they switch off too early after a fast run? The turbo bearings need to cool down by having cooler oil circulating for a while, otherwise cabonning takes place. It used to say that in many handbooks. Does it still?
Edited by Sir Lancelot on 08/11/2012 at 10:13
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No! On petrols, this is good practice, but unnecessary on a diesel. Water cooling has largely made this a rsdundant practice.
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The OP said:
"We have contacted Ford and asked why this should have failed and the cause of the failure on a car with such low millage and and not very old"
By my reckonning a 4 year old car with 24,000 miles is only doing short journeys so the oil and filter should be changed annually. And synthetic oil used for this most arduous of types of use. (That's what I do to my Yaris diesel).
I suyspect the car has had only one service in that time. Gross abuse.
Edited by madf on 08/11/2012 at 14:50
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Isn't the biggest cause of turbo failure the fact that many people do NOT allow the enginge to run at low revs for a while, and that they switch off too early after a fast run? The turbo bearings need to cool down by having cooler oil circulating for a while, otherwise cabonning takes place. It used to say that in many handbooks. Does it still?
I too carry on doing this despite all the latest advice to the contrary, Volvo truck handbooks used to recommend running engine warm before driving, couldn't tell you if it still says the same i don't have a spare fortnight to wade through the gumf.
Next thing they'll be telling us that those old cable handbrakes are obsolete and for Luddites only, the latest must have being an electric one, i'll be ignoring that advice too.
:-))
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Volvo truck handbooks used to recommend running engine warm before driving
ALL truck engines require a warm-up before driving Gordon-as you well know!
I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of idling before switching off. But, if you think about it, when you lift off on a diesel, the unthrottled engine continues to pump cold air through the engine and turbo. So, if you exit the motorway to a services, the engine basically spends a mile or so in overrun and the turbo should be fairly ciold by the time you park up.
I'd be a bit less blase with a petrol though. That said, my brother's Focus ST has a 'turbo timer' fitted as standard and you can hear the pump whirring away as you walk away from the car.
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I have been running Citroen turbo diesels since the CX about 25 years ago and have never had a turbo fail in half a million miles, but I always changed my oil at 5,000 miles.
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I always allow a little warm up before driving harder and i always allow a mins cool down before switching of on my TD's. I also always use a leading fuel brand and change oil at twice the intervals. Never had a diesel failure in 35 years and many many miles.My Ford Jaguar TDci's were doing very high miles and never even an EGR failure
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ALL truck engines require a warm-up before driving Gordon-as you well know!
I'm curious about this -- why is a warm up necessary for truck engines? Is it the quenching effect of the cylinders' large surface area?
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It's largely down to power to weight ratio. A car will have ~100hp/ton. A truck weill often have less than 10. So, even driving gently from cold works the engine quite hard which you don't want to do.
Cummins engines in particular have a very low comprression ratio, and themechanical ones tend to start one cylinder at a time in the cold. They don't have glow plugs either, so you basically have to wait until all cylinders are firing properly before the engine is driveable.
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When a student in Aberdeen I had digs near the local bus garage. Quite common for engines to be started at 5am in winter when cold and quiet... took 3 mins plus to fire up and then minutes to fire on alll cylinders. Then left to idle to warm up for 15 minutes.
Just the ticket to wake you early after a night's revelry... NOT.
Edited by madf on 09/11/2012 at 13:15
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Interesting, thanks. Are the cylinders too large for glow-plugs to work effectively (without using kilowatts of electricity ...)?
Do current-generation truck diesel engines use common-rail injection systems, piezo injectors etc and so on?
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You guessed it, the cylinders are too big for glow plugs to be effective (not enough of the fuel spray would impinge on the glow plug). The modern ones use grid heaters in the intake manifold which heat up the air entering the engine. This requires a lot more power than glow plugs.
Like the automotive sector, big diesels now use common rail pumps and piezo injectors (all the stuff you see on cars was originally developed for the heavy duty sector first). The notable exception being Caterpillar who use unit injectors-but they are hydraulically operated by engine oil, rather than camshaft operated like the VAG PD engines. Oil being a better lubricant than diesel, allows them to achieve slightly higher injection pressures than CR. Be interesting to see if this will be downsized for passenger cars...
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Interesting, thanks. If I remember right, VAG dropped the unit injectors because they couldn't meet new NOx emissions, I don't know if hydraulic / piezo injectors etc could overcome that.
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The unit injectors were dropped because they have a short window when high pressure injection is possible (being cam operated). DPF regens require post injection. Since the plunger stroke is fixed, then the only way to increase the window is to reduce the rate of injection. PD engines were fitted with DPF towards the end but they don't operate at as high injection pressures as pre DPF cars which was the main selling point of unit injectors.
The NOx problem was caused by the inclined injector due to the two valve arrangement. This gave uneven spray pattern to the chamber.The switch to four valves allows the injector to be positioned 'straight up'-nowt to do with breathing!
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