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And you're buying it with money that you've paid income tax on!!(quadruple).
Edited by jc2 on 27/08/2012 at 08:33
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Don't complain chaps, we're all in this together doncha know, well except for the very rich and those who don't work , oh and those who are subsidised by various schemes, oh and.....
Simple answer, get car LPG converted and pay far less tax back to those who would squander and waste as much as possible for their moment in the media spotlight.
Seriously though, that is a bonus for running on LPG, every time you fill up and every time you drive it, there is a good feeing that 'they' haven't quite managed to grab back the expected 80% of the money you earned in tax.
Yes in a few years they will bring LPG tax take up to other levels, about the same time as they install trackers into every vehicle to monitor the movements of the proletariat, all in the name of anti terrorism....then we shall do without a car completely, more tax they won't be grabbing..;)
Edited by gordonbennet on 27/08/2012 at 09:25
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I thought modern diesel engines, which are powerful, smooth and very economical, had just about seen off LPG conversions!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 27/08/2012 at 10:16
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I thought modern diesel engines, which are powerful, smooth and very economical, had just about seen off LPG conversions!
Depends what you want in a car, i can't stand the sound of under 2.5 litre 4 cylinder Diesel engines, they belong in white vans, and the ever increasing complication of the things (as well as tiny torque bands) has finally driven me away after some 30 years of nearly constant ownership.
Most small Diesels if they come with auto boxes at all, the boxes are normally of the devils design unless you go MB/BMW, automated manuals with varying quantities of clutches, i wouldn't own one if it was free, horrible to drive in traffic and manoeuver.
LPGing a proper 6+ cyl NA or 4+ cyl turbo petrol engine and auto box car can give the best of both worlds, its not for everyone, indeed it's probably a niche market as VED costs mean registered before 06 in most cases, but short of going to the huge expense of quality (Lexus) hybrids is the only alternative if like me you can no longer stand little Diesels..;)
edit...i think Diesels have become a sort of default choice where economy is desired on paper, reading of the troubles involved with many, from turbos to injectors to DMF to DPF etc i'm no longer sure that they work out the most econimical in the long run, where they do score is the present VED scoring system which favours Diesel, and of course most are turbocharged which give impressive and sometimes misleading power/economy figures to quote..
Edited by gordonbennet on 27/08/2012 at 10:57
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>> i think Diesels have become a sort of default choice where economy is desired on paper.....
The manufacturers are making a rod for their own backs here. We're now getting to the point where some of these things start chucking "arm and leg" repair bills around like confetti once over the critical fleet contract time from new.
Eventually the secondhand market is going to cotton on to the fact that buying a modern diesel with a few years on it is likely to prove costly. Demand for them secondhand will dry up and the fleets will suffer monumental levels of depreciation. No fleet provider buys cars they think they'll have trouble selling and the inevitable result is that the manufacturers will end up with fields full of oil-burners that nobody wants.......
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''The manufacturers are making a rod for their own backs here''
Good points there TC, its incredible just how many are swayed by badges though, despite dozens of reports of failures which the makers concerned have washed their hands most of the general car buying public still believe the hype, influenced no doubt by clever class concious ads.
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The manufacturers are making a rod for their own backs here. We're now getting to the point where some of these things [diesels] start chucking "arm and leg" repair bills around like confetti
I'd wait and see how the modern whizz bang petrols fare in the long run before dismissing diesels as unreliable. Anyone thinking that the cycle tuned turbo charged VVT GDI engines will be as forgiving as the old port injected mills turning out 60hp/litre are going to be disappointed.
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'''I'd wait and see how the modern whizz bang petrols fare in the long run before dismissing diesels as unreliable. Anyone thinking that the cycle tuned turbo charged VVT GDI engines will be as forgiving as the old port injected mills turning out 60hp/litre are going to be disappointed.'''
Thats a fair comment, and threads here and elsewhere reveal regular problems with some of these small petrol engines boosted via supercharger and turbo (double the trouble) to give very high power from small capacity.
Those of us who have decided the latest Diesels are a step too far are hardly likely to buy into another highly complicated highly stressed engine simply because it's fuelled with petrol instead of DERV, especially when the purveyors of these cars often display scant regard for their customers once the still short warranty's have expired, incredibly said customers return for more of the same when the next electronic flavour of the month is released.
I too am going to be watching how these ever more complicated overstressed engines fare over time, noting with interest that Toyota, a company renowned for quality, customer care and standing by their product, as of yet haven't gone down this road, no doubt for good reasons.
You only have to see how the latest gearbox innovations are proving to realise that high tech doesn't translate to driveable or durable, even Toyota got sucked in on that with their MMT, which seems to be disappearing rapidly from their latest models, i'll bet Auris replacement doesn't have one, as latest Yaris.
Me, i'll be sticking with well proven over time, thanks all the same...;)
Edited by gordonbennet on 28/08/2012 at 09:44
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I thought modern diesel engines, which are powerful, smooth and very economical, had just about seen off LPG conversions!
Let's see....
Powerful - maybe, but at the expense of highly stressed parts and complex electronics (which is why the same folks seem to criticise modern, tuned petrol engines)
smooth - no
very economical - on paper maybe
13,000 miles in the lauded VAG 2.0 110bhp common rail diesel taught me a very expensive lesson. Noisy, rough and not very economical in my experience but the diesel users who tried it all said it was "great, for a diesel", draw your own conclusions. But 38mpg, 1/2 litre of oil every 500 miles and more breakdowns that I could shake a stick at is compelling evidence.
Sister has just got a 320ED which sounds like a tractor and she wishes she had never seen.
Ops director has just arrived at the office, I don't need to look outside, the 520d combine harvester noise gives it away.
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very economical - on paper maybe
13,000 miles in the lauded VAG 2.0 110bhp common rail diesel taught me a very expensive lesson. Noisy, rough and not very economical.
You must have been actively trying to get poor economy out of it. Say what you like about the clattery idle of diesels, they are quite simply the most efficient prime mover ever devised. That's why you'll never see a ship, train or a truck with spark plugs.
Once you're on the road they are quiter than petrols because they don't need to rev as high. The short rev range is only really a problem in stop-start work.
But 38mpg, 1/2 litre of oil every 500 miles and more breakdowns that I could shake a stick at is compelling evidence.
It's compelling evidence that there was somethiong wrong with that particular engine, nothing else.
LPG is a red herring. It has had it's day. Its sole attraction lies in the tax break on the fuel. Take away the tax break on LPG and no one would be interested. Diesel competes on an almost equal taxation basis.
The bold claims of huge reductions in emissions are complete nonsense since a large chunk of the emissions occurs during the cold start (when the cat is inoperative)-which is invariably on petrol. Doh! The CO2 emissuions from LPG are only ~8% lower than that of petrol.
Diesels aren't for everyone-I drive a petrol but I doubt that my next car will have spark plugs.
Edited by unthrottled on 29/08/2012 at 00:58
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Actually been aware of this for too long. My aim is to see how much of Joe Bloggs' hard earned he actually 'has'. Take an average wage, deduct income tax, N.I. council tax, VAT, fuel taxes x many, alcohol taxes, anyone out there with enough knowledge to work it out. I reckon Mr average dosen't get to keep much and what he does Mrs A is very adept at getting it off him.
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Its staggering just how badly some people run their financial lives, the latest wheeze, PPI claim backs by parasites from the same stable as injury claim lawyers is a good example.
Apparently some people have managed to have reimbursed umpteen thousands of pounds from missold payment protection insurance.
Just how much have these people been borrowing and for how long, does no one live within their means any more?
The meagre amount of money they had left over from taxes of various hues must have been paid to lenders to pay for the upkeep of their Bentleys and Rolex's...oh yes i used to see the lovely Bentley gracing the frontage of a heavily advertised loan centre i passed regularly on my travels, good for you matey, if they're daft enough to keep you in multi millionaire luxury good luck to you.
Why do people do it, get themselves in hock for all their lives, often to give the appearance of being something they are not, doesn't anyone tell them nobody with any sense is in the least interested or impressed..
Its amazing just how much you can keep of your own money by buying well, used or otherwise and by simply living within your means.
I didn't throw away the nations wealth on a vast politcally led Ponzi scheme and illegal wars, i didn't sell the place or allow the country to be governed from Brussels either, i'm blowed if i'm voluntarily paying any more than i have to for their traitorous actions.
Whats really sad is that history as always repeats itself, liars and thieves in suits elected by brainwashed people under false promises which they immediately betrayed, the electrorate will continue to elect the same crooks whatever happens, believing incredibly that the next batch of self seekers will do the right thing as they promised just like the last lot, WMD or EU referendum anyone?
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I don't wish to spoil GB's rant but people tend to vote for politicians who promise them something for nothing and not vote for politicians who do not.
Human nature.
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Thomas Cochrane in the early 18 hundreds gave every one who voted for him cash...parently at that time who you voted for was known....next election he gets in on a landslide, voters go round for their cash but Cochrane gives them nothing. Voters assumed they would get cash second time round but had never actually at anytime been promised any. His biography is worth a read or at least a wiki look up.
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Well, we have come a distance from LPG versus Diesel!! I have almost decided that when my excellent VAG 1.9TD PD 130 finally gives up(not soon I hope) I shall return to petrol and a good reliable maker. So it will be back to Honda for me. If any government were serious about Carbon emissions then they would promote LPG and keep a low tax threshold. This would ensure cleaner emissions- but how can they tax it??? This proves beyond all doubt that governments are not interested in anything but how to tax any product, service or activity.
We of course have the solution in our hands. We simply stop using the products, services or activities unless absolutely essential. The tax take would plummet and their pips would squeak for a change. With the internet it would not be difficult to organise an embargo on certain targeted items for a specific amount of time. However as somebody said, apathy rules. Around here you could put up an Alsatian dog for Parliament and as long as it had a red rosette on it would be elected. I do not expect much in the way of discernment from our glorious electorate, so we get the government we don't deserve simply because apathy rules and thinking doesn't. Sorry to sound so jaundiced, but after more than 60 years on this planet it seems to me we have the illusion of more freedom but less actual choice because people are not willing to engage and debate political issues and decide which way to vote, other than the colour of the rosette!! Cheers. Concrete
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By George he gets it, well said Concrete.
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