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Thu 26 Jul 2012 16:28

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

Two day ago on the way to work I came up behind two cars doing 40ish. I slowed and followed the the two cars fo a few hundred yards. We rounded a bend with a long straight ahead with good visibility and no on comming traffic. I waited to see what the two cars in front of me were going to do.

The leading car maintained they're speed of 40ish while the car directly infront of me maintained there road position centrally in their lane.

I waited a few seconds before checking my mirrors, indicating my intention to move to the right and finally starting my overtake of both cars.

I was midway through the manuoevre and parallel with the first car when it decides to pull out and collided with my car.

I have photos at the scene of the damage to both cars. The scrapes to their front wheel arch match the scrapes to the side of my front bumper. The dent in the centre of my front wheel arch matched the size and position of their side repeater. A line indent on the top of my wing matches where their wing mirror is and a dent in my front pasenger door matches the position of their driver door handle.

The photos clearly show the cars had to be level when they came together.

My insurance company say they will try there best to get full liability from the other insurer but said these are normally settled on previous rulling and that I could be looking at 70% liability.

There is no law against overtaking as long as it's done in a safe manner. The highway code rule 162 states before overtaking ensure other road users are not beginning to overtake you.

How can I possible be facing any liability let alone upto 70%?

Edited by Padster on 26/07/2012 at 16:31

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 16:59

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Cris_on_the_gas

If the cars were level when coming together the chance is that you were in the blind spot of the other driver.

Do you have any witnesses ?

You haven't said the speed limit so assume its National speed limit. If lead car was travelling at 40 mph, then good chance that car behind was looking for the overtake. Did you notice before the overtake the likely behavour of car 2, distance behind lead car ?, number and age of occupants ?, type of car ie performance or Mrs Miggins going to Waitrose ?

As you had considered the other vehicle and gave right indicator signal before overtake did you also consider other signal eg horn, head lamp flash ?

If lead car was doing 40 mph and long straight then would be courteous to allow it to overtake if it looked like it wanted to

Seems like in this situation there is liability on both parties.

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 17:18

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

No witnesses.

I had been following the two cars for a few hundred yards. The car in front of me positioned centrally in the lane and get between them ant the car in front remained constant.

When we entered the straight I posistioned my car to the right and observed what the car in front of me was doing. It remained centred in the lane and maintained the gap between their car and the car in front.

No indication of a manoeuvre either by lights or atitude of the car.

The window of opertunity was reducing for my overtake so I proceeded with my manouevre in accordance with the highway code.

The car in quetion was a pug 307 estate with a middle aged woman driving.

After the bump she admitted fully resposeability and I also noticed she had a travel mug clasped between her legs. Neither of which it appears makes a difference. She's not allowed to admit liability and there is nothing to say having a travel mug between you legs affects your driving.

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 17:31

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - RT

Car drivers don't have blind spots - the mirrors do, so drivers must never rely absolutely on mirrors but should also glance over their shoulder to see if anyone else is alongside, either partially or evenly.

Padster - if you have legal liability cover you may do better getting them involved.

Edited by RT on 26/07/2012 at 17:32

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 18:05

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

The thing is - if she'd looked in her mirror she would have seen my wing mirror next to it.

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 19:02

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Avant

When you say the 'first car' presumably that was the first for you to overtake. The driver has broken s.162 of the Highway Code as you say; she shouldn't have admitted liability but it should help you that she did. Also the 307 estate is one of the few Peugeots that doesn't have a blind spot, as the hatcback 307 does; she should have seen you.

I can't think why your insurers would say you are to blame at all, let alone 70 %.

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Thu 26 Jul 2012 19:44

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

My insurer told me she can't admit liability only her insurer can. He also said her holding a cup with her legs didn't matter.

He said that nearly all claims which involve overtaking are settled split liability and worse case 70% against me. He said the fact I have photos of the damage to both cars and it supports my position that I was level with her when contact was made may reduce my liability.

I have done nothing wrong. I overtook in a safe maner. Yet I'm looking at paying some of my excess and having an at fault claim on my record.

Edited by Padster on 26/07/2012 at 19:45

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 10:40

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Cris_on_the_gas

Insurers don't like their client admitting liability because it means that they will have to pay out. If she has that has to be good for you.

She has admitted liability at the scene. holding a cup between her legs presumbly means that she was drinking from it. The Highway code S.148 & 150 advises against drinking and states that you must excercise proper control of vehicle at all times. In the way you describe it it seems thet she has not heeded this information.

What is the cost of the repairs ?. If repair cost less than £5k, which from what you say this is likely then you could demand the cost of repair and take to small claims court if she does not pay up. Her Insurance company indemify her against this cost.

Notwithstanding Insurance you have to prove that she was negilent and that you have suffered damage due to this.

Her Insurance company will of course deny this.

Why are you using your Insurance company ? Have you considered claiming directly of of her/Insurance company.

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 14:15

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

It was my insurer that said her admittence means nothing. It was also my insurance company that said driving with a cup means nothing.

My wife works evenings so my policy has coutesy car as without it I couldn't get home from work on time for her to make her work. Also she needs a car for her job.

I alway thought with an accident you report it to your own insurer who them makes the claim on your behalf.

With regards to negligence. I have photos from the scene that show damage from the front wheel arch to the rear wheel arch of both cars. The scrapes are no longer than around 6 inches proving brief contact and not prolonged side scrapping. This proves I was pretty much level when contact was made and well into my maneouvre. I couldn't possibly have got in that posisiton if I had started to overtake after she began her move.

Edited by Padster on 27/07/2012 at 14:21

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 15:58

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - nortones2

Admitting responsibility is something that insurers ask THEIR clients not to do. It doesn't mean that such an admission by the other party is meaningless, if it can be proven. However, the advice to the OP from their own insurer is not necessarily in your best interests. They are not your friend. It matters not to them what the outcome is. I suggest you get impartial legal advice if you can do so.

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 16:48

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Cris_on_the_gas

I alway thought with an accident you report it to your own insurer who them makes the claim on your behalf.

You can do it this way.

The rule is that you are always liable if through your negilence you cause injury or damage to another person or property. Insurance companies only cover you against this as required by the Road traffic act.

By taking a courtsey car you have claimed on your comprenhensive policy with the hope of proving liability on the third party.

Clearly in this case your insurance broker does not seem interested in proving negligence on the third party but going for a contributary negligence negotiation with the other Insurance company.

if you think that the other party is entirely to blame for the crash, and it seems from what you have said that you have a good case to argue. Then it is your right to claim that damage from the third party directly, or her insurance comapny if she prefers.

I would be doing this and also claiming the cost of the courtsey car so your Insurance co is not out of pocket.

So seems like you have 2 choices, let the Insurance companies sort it out or pursue the case your self. If the latter and you do not feel confident to do so then you may need legal advice. Which clearly will cost you money, if you win you will get this back if not then you're throwing more money away.

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 17:19

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - Padster

I really can't afford to persue it myself with even a 1% chance of losing.

My insurer has asked my to provided a description of events diagrams and any photos I have. Hopefully when they receive this they will go for a no fault.

Thanks for all replies.

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Fri 27 Jul 2012 18:44

Honda Civic - split liability for bump during overtake. - FP

"if you think that the other party is entirely to blame for the crash, and it seems from what you have said that you have a good case to argue. Then it is your right to claim that damage from the third party directly, or her insurance comapny if she prefers."

Good advice. Though a lawyer might help, you can do it yourself. If you are out of pocket after your own insurance company has washed its hands of the case (e.g. you lost your excess) you can write letters and make phone calls to the other party and /or their insurance company. I have done so in the past and won.

If the accident was not in any way your fault, why settle for less?

Edited by FP on 27/07/2012 at 18:45

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